[Comrade]

EPE is absolutely one of the worst engineered expressways I have experienced. This is what I wrote in 2022.

Originally Posted by Comrade

Many have already praised the pride-of-Hyderabadis' ORR but just want to add that after recently experiencing the Eastern Peripheral Expressway (EPE) around Delhi NCR, I realized how privileged we Hyderabadis are, to have ORR.

NHAI's EPE has 120kmph speed limit, but white-topping (concrete) is not perfectly smooth, and makes the cars pitch back and forth a lot. Bridges are constructed few inches higher than the remaining elevated road, and we can feel the bumps at starting and ending of every bridge. Expansion joints in the bridges dont seem to be perfectly engineered. All together, NCR's EPE does not inspire confidence to drive at 120 kmph. In contrast, Hyderabad's ORR begs you to push the car beyond speed limit everytime. Everything is so well engineered that you dont realize the marvel unless you experience something like EPE.

[Rodie09]

When I drive around from Pune in different directions, on different kind of surfaces I can clearly see and feel the difference in quality of roads even when comparing asphalt to asphalt or concrete to concrete. This is because we have no standard to adhere to apparently. Some of the roads, concrete ones particularly, you can tell by look itself that ride is going to be bumpy. Same in city area - one gets a variety of experiences and no common standard. I heard the gentleman in second post putting it onto cars and mentioned Safari (I own one) and I can tell for sure on bad cement roads the ride gets very rough as the suspension is stiff and 18inch wheels make it worse. I regularly experience this on Pune Mumbai expressway - some sections are so bad at the beginning from Pune side that one feels as if they are on a rumbler.

I can imagine similar surfaces on EP expressway as described by OP and many others here. There is big need for certain standards to be met for road surface.

[saleem_k]

I'm surprised to see some comments on how 120kmph is not a safe speed on expressways. If not on expressways, where else should cars be driven confidently at high speeds? Let me share the experience of the ORR in Hyderabad.

Almost 20 years ago, when Hyderabad got the Outer Ring Road (famously known as the ORR) the speed limit was set to 120kmph but by 2010 or so, the speed limit was reduced to 100kmph due to racing and accident incidents in which prominent personalities' children died. The road quality back then itself was amazing (my personal experience started from 2007). Over the years, this road's connectivity has expanded and more exits have been made and of course the traffic has increase and just about 6 months ago, the speed limit was increased to 120kmph but this limit still seems less on this road due to the smoothness and quality of the road and of course the luxury of 4 lanes on one side. Yes, there are a handful of bad patches but nothing that's going to damage a vehicle or throw it a little off-guard.

It's not wrong to expect good roads for the taxes we pay and if such quality of roads are being constructed at humongous costs and we aren't able to enjoy driving on them then it's really not worth it.

[supermax]

Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain

Depends on your car. While the surface is not baby butt smooth, it is still very decent. Cars with good dynamics can easily cruise at 120 all day here. Of course, a host of vehicles, especially sub 15 lakh, are totally out of their depth at such speeds

120kmph is the default on all new world class roads being built. Personally, I feel the infra is good enough for 150kmph, but the cars are not there yet in terms of output.

I disagree with practically everything you said. Nowhere in the world is there any budget-based road-speed assignment. There are of course classes of motor vehicles like mopeds, light motorcycles, personal vehicles, trucks etc and each category has their own speed limits and or even total bans from entering certain types of roads, but you really can't post a limit and claim that it's safe for SUVs but dangerous for normal vehicles. Also the point about infra being read for 150 kmph. The problem isn't that cars are not there; the real problem is that our drivers will never be there. There is no way we can be safe with our present quality of drivers with speeds of 150 kmph on Indian roads.

Originally Posted by himanshu_trikha

But are we missing a point here ,120 KMPH is the max speed and most cars I could drive on highways behave well between 80-100 Kmph, choose the cruising speed as per your and vehicle condition.

This is the wrong way to look at speed limits. True, the word limit implies an upper limit, but there's safety only if most or all of the road users converge at or very near that upper limit which is of course safe for all permitted traffic, not just those with some fancy SUVs. If there's a huge speed differential between people, it is detrimental to road safety, so posting a limit and leaving it to the people to drive at whatever they feel is okay is a really bad idea. I have an uncle who insists on never exceeding 60-70 km/h, and he'll be a danger to himself and others if on a European highway with a posted limit of 120 km/h, as he'll be convinced he's being safe by only driving at 70, while everybody else will be scared by his 'dangerously slow' driving. The limit should be safe for everybody, and should not be exceeded. If a driver is forced to drive well below the limit because of real safety concerns, the infrastructure is not really safe for that posted limit.

Originally Posted by SLK

That's not correct. The objective of a speed limit is to define the max speed which can be considered safe for this road, considering the surface, design and intrusions along the way.

My take on the topic:
For a car that can cruise at 200kmph in Germany, can can't keep its composure at 120kmph on our expressways, something is seriously wrong.

Can't agree more. Speed limits fix the maximum legal speed, but the lower limit should not have to be significantly lower just for safety. If it's not safe to drive at 120 in a normal car on a road, that road is not safe for 120 km/h. Period. Claiming that some lunar rover with balloon tires can drive at 140+ there without any vibrations is not the correct argument.

Originally Posted by Redex

So that means I can drive at 120kmh if the road is covered with 15cms of ice and snow ?
Of course not, you have to use driver discretion. There are plenty of roads with 30kmh limits where it is impossible to exceed 20kmh safely.
The posted limit is 120kmh, if your vehicle cannot handle the road surface at those speeds, you have to use common sense and lower your speed. Plenty of people are driving at 120kmh on that stretch of road.

This is a classic strawman argument; nobody is saying you have to drive at the limit where the road is covered with 15 cm ice and snow. For your information, roads which are rated at 110/120 will be cleared of snow, so if there's a likelyhood for buildup of 15 cm of snow regularly, either the speed rating will be lowered substantially, and/or the cleaning frequency will be significantly increased. There should always be driver discretion, but the posted limit must be safe for all traffic that is legally allowed to ply there. Saying that it's safe for some bulky SUV but unsafe for a Maruti 800 clearly means that the road is unsafe but certain fancier features in a fancier vehicle is negating the concerns, which basically means that the road is not safe for all at the stated limit.

[FLYBOYSID]

EPE might have been awesome by design, but the execution of work did not let it happen. Plain sight the road appears so good. However, you build up speed here and it can get a bit nerve jarring. The undulations are so obvious and my Safari (2023) doesn’t shy transmitting them to the cabin. A drive after moderate rains is an adventure in itself.

Water pooling close to the shoulders, surprisingly even in the high speed lane talks of the great on ground engineering effort. The thrill of one side of your vehicle aquaplaning is akin to being in an amusement park. A little off guard and the physics of pooled water + undulating surface + 120 kmph decide when and which lane you would drive in.

Plan probably was awesome, the execution on ground is a sham.

Bundelkhand expressway after necessary repairs has become pretty much acceptable. Other roads like the DME/ Taj Yamuna and Agra Lucknow expressway seem to be well planned and executed. EPE needs rectification.

[himanshu_trikha]

Originally Posted by supermax

This is the wrong way to look at speed limits. True, the word limit implies an upper limit, but there's safety only if most or all of the road users converge at or very near that upper limit which is of course safe for all permitted traffic, not just those with some fancy SUVs. If there's a huge speed differential between people, it is detrimental to road safety, so posting a limit and leaving it to the people to drive at whatever they feel is okay is a really bad idea. I have an uncle who insists on never exceeding 60-70 km/h, and he'll be a danger to himself and others if on a European highway with a posted limit of 120 km/h, as he'll be convinced he's being safe by only driving at 70, while everybody else will be scared by his 'dangerously slow' driving. The limit should be safe for everybody, and should not be exceeded. If a driver is forced to drive well below the limit because of real safety concerns, the infrastructure is not really safe for that posted limit.

I am sorry to be coming up as a fool suggesting 60-70 KMPH for a road rated as 120 KMPH ,but all I could see is mentioning a speed of 80-100 KMPH as a convenient range in my post quoted.I definitely agree with that slow driving nuisance that people create on expressways.

All vehicles driving near to Max Speed limits maintaining the prescribed distance limit would be a utopian world especially for traffic engineering management.

I suggest thread participants to go through a basic concept called 85 percentile speed wherein the basic tenet is drivers,drive as per the ‘feel’ of the road.There are scientific factors which define feel of the road.

[supermax]

Originally Posted by himanshu_trikha

I suggest thread participants to go through a basic concept called 85 percentile speed wherein the basic tenet is drivers,drive as per the ‘feel’ of the road.There are scientific factors which define feel of the road.

That's outdated. In Europe, the feel of the road and its inherent safety is taken into account when the speed limit is set. On the motorways, if there's no inclement weather, it's not the 85% speed but 105% speed that is practiced. If one is driving at 93.5 km/h (85% of 110 km/h, the default speed limit on EU motorways), even trucks will resort to passing you, as trucks are limited to 90 km/h but in practice drive at around 95. Stick to 110, or better yet 115, and you'll find that nobody will be forced to overtake you; traffic that wants to do the speed limit will comfortably slot themselves behind you, after ensuring adequate separation.

[uneasyrider]

Originally Posted by MadinMumbai

The road surface is bumpy beyond 80kmph, and when the car hits a joint I found it difficult keeping my lunch. At 120 kms I would imagine it being a roller coaster type ride.

While a bit of the thread spun into which vehicles are better designed for 120kmph on highways, the core point remains. These routes are not restricted to the "built for highways" vehicles, meaning that all sorts of them will ply. A road surface that does not contribute to the errors of any inexperienced driver testing the speed limits is necessary.

It is also necessary to better manage the highways—in terms of service road approaches, turns, signage, and banking. I have not driven on the EPE, but my experience with the WPE and the Samruddhi Mahamarg has been great. I was expecting better road quality (including surface, joints, bridges/culverts, and banking), but these new roads provide nothing worthwhile.

Laying down longer highways is necessary and important, but these should also be good ones for the indicated speeds. You decided to stick to 80kmph because of the horrendous drive experience, but someone else will likely get egged on to push their vehicles to the limit and create a bucketful of chaos.

[GForceEnjoyer]

I disagree with those saying that cars need to be of a "minimum standard" to be drivable on expressways. No matter how wide the road or how gentle the curves, a smooth surface is the most basic requirement for any road. Until we fix that on our supposedly "world class" new expressways like the Mumbai-Nagpur expressway and the Delhi-Jaipur expressway, a speed of 120 km/h may be momentarily attainable, but definitely not sustainable.

I can give you an example of an Indian expressway where any car feels safe at a specified speed limit of 120 km/h: Hyderabad's Outer Ring Road. By safe, I mean that the speed can be maintained at all times without feeling like you're in danger.

I have experienced the same in a variety of cars, all the way from an autobahn-burning W204 Mercedes C Class to a humble second-generation Maruti DZire to the (extremely) softly sprung MG Hector. The surface of Hyderabad's ORR, including all entry and exit ramps, all curves and all expansion joints allow one to cruise at 120 km/h. No curve requires even the sloppiest handling modern car to slow down. (Even this road isn't 100% perfect, there are a few places where some repair work is needed)

I think this is the bare minimum standard that our new expressways must meet to even begin to deserve the "world class" tag.

[himanshu_trikha]

Originally Posted by supermax

That's outdated. In Europe, the feel of the road and its inherent safety is taken into account when the speed limit is set. On the motorways, if there's no inclement weather, it's not the 85% speed but 105% speed that is practiced. If one is driving at 93.5 km/h (85% of 110 km/h, the default speed limit on EU motorways), even trucks will resort to passing you, as trucks are limited to 90 km/h but in practice drive at around 95. Stick to 110, or better yet 115, and you'll find that nobody will be forced to overtake you; traffic that wants to do the speed limit will comfortably slot themselves behind you, after ensuring adequate separation.

Percent and percentile are two different concepts of maths. I don’t think I would be able to take the argument further.

[vredesbyrd]

Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain

Depends on your car.

I drive a Scorpio N which is maintained in top condition with correct alignment and tyre pressure. Recently drove to Spiti and Sethan. I have had my fair share of bad roads (Hatu Peak in a Vento).
On the way back, we had to use the EPE for bypassing Delhi. Forget 120 kph. Even at 100 kph, there were times that we felt like it would bottom out at any of the undulations or joints.

The type or condition of the car is certainly not the issue here, I can assure you that

[Turbohead]

Apart from cribbing about the obvious, is there anyway we can force the authorities to comply with certain standards? Or are there no defined standards in the first place? Unfortunately, there is no option to fight at the toll gate like in the old days - your toll will get deducted automatically anyway.

[Redex]

It is really this simple. Just drive at a speed that is comfortable for you, your passengers, your vehicle and other road users. Forget the posted speed limit, just stay below it and drive safely. If you feel you need to travel faster on a road just because the limit is 120 kmh, leave earlier and drive slower at say 80 of 90 kmh !!!!
Nothing you say or do will change the quality of a supposed 120 kmh stretch of road, just change your driving style to the the conditions at the time you are driving.
For those who point out 200 kmh on German Autobahns, the death rate is twice that of the UK motorways. The German Government suggests that drivers stay below 130 kmh and in fact most vehicles do !!! Many Autobahns do have a maximum speed limit, many also have variable speed limits according to traffic and weather.
The Indian problem is just the quality of the work and road surface. Resolve this issue or just adapt and accept it. Drive slower. Simple.

[Ravi Parwan]

First off, the entitlement we have in India of driving at the "comfortable" speed, in the lane we are "comfortable" in, is what leads to so much headache and heartburn for everyone. If the road speed limit is 120, most people on the road intend to drive at or around that limit. There is a reason why they have paid the premium to be on that road. No one should trivialize it by saying, I am not comfortable driving at 120 or even 100, I would drive at 80 in the right most lane, since I am "comfortable" doing that. Your comfort makes the other road users uncomfortable.

Second, an M800, maintained properly is able to do 120 KMPH on a proper highway. It may not be as comfortable as larger more expensive vehicles, but it will do the needful. Same for the 1.2L set of vehicles. they may not have stellar 0-100 kmph times but they can maintain speeds of 120 KMPH all day long, once they reach those speeds.

But how comfortable and secure you would feel in a vehicle doing 120 kmph is part dependent on both the vehicle and the road surface. Which brings us to the main point being discussed here.

I would definitely not recommend the EPE as being worthy of 120 for any vehicle. The road surface, the joints between the concrete blocks, the undulations and bumps do not instigate any confidence when at 120. An expressway has "express" in its name. It is supposed to make travel "fast" and "safe". Unfortunately, this highway fails to do either due to poor execution. If you have to drive with parts of your anatomy clenched for potholes and bumps on the road, you will not enjoy your travel but rather endure it. end result would be you would arrive at your destination sore and tired, which defeats the purpose of an expressway.

[SLK]

Originally Posted by Redex

So that means I can drive at 120kmh if the road is covered with 15cms of ice and snow ?
Of course not, you have to use driver discretion.

Yamuna E-way's speed limit is reduced every winter, exactly for this (fog not snow). It is the responsibility of the authorities to put a legally safe limit after considering all factors including snow/ visibility.

If you are driving within the limit, and you runover someone or something which came in your way (illegally), you are legally not at fault, that is the use of a limit.

If the law allows you to drive at full speed limit with 15cms of snow and still walk free if you runover someone or something at that speed on a snow covered road, its an issue with the law.

Originally Posted by Redex

My 1998 Ford Explorer 4.0 V6, would have sailed down that road, no problems.

So would my 1984 M800!, and I'm sure I've been there. But that's not the point. The point is, if the road is un-even, would your car be able to handle emergency situations with the level of composure that you are capable of?

I did a full run of the Mumbai Delhi Express way from Dausa to Gurgaon at 120kmph set at cruise non-stop in Octavia 1.8 L&K (the independent rear suspension and all) along with the XL6 trailing behind at same speed. My car's sunroof/ rear hatch rattles reminds me of that day, every time I drive it.

For the record, KMP is bad almost all though, but Delhi Mumbai Eway is only bad in limited stretches, specifically about 50-70kms when returning from Dausa.

Originally Posted by Redex

It is really this simple. Just drive at a speed that is comfortable for you, your passengers, your vehicle and other road users.

I agree and I almost always do that, but then that is not an excuse for making sub-standard road. Why should a road be wobbly? so much so that the stated speed limit is perpetually unsettling.

Originally Posted by Redex

For those who point out 200 kmh on German Autobahns, the death rate is twice that of the UK motorways.

Its not because the road surface and design can't support the permitted speeds. Human mistakes at higher speeds cost more.

Originally Posted by Redex

The Indian problem is just the quality of the work and road surface. Resolve this issue or just adapt and accept it. Drive slower. Simple.

That's what we should do, drive at a speed that feels right for the road, but that's not an escape for the people who built these roads with my tax paid money and charge me toll and then deliver a substandard product where I have to adjust and compromise.

This thread is for pointing out what is wrong with the roads (as against the rather excessive advertisement), I'm sure all understand that safety is in own hands, and blaming the road for an incident will not help. BUT the authorities need to know that they are making a mess of it.

Overloaded trucks are also a reason which consumes road surface much faster.