[Funny]

I hope you and your parents are doing better now.

Regarding chassis damage/bent on a body-on-frame vehicle like Scorpio-N, it is a fairly straightforward process, they simply have to lift the body up from the old chassis and place it on a new chassis. Also note that Chassis replacement needs RTO approval, an RTO officer would need to check and approve the chassis replacement and the new Chassis number would be updated in your RC card.

In the past, we had a fairly big accident in a Tata Hexa which also resulted in damaged chassis and naturally we were worried but the chassis replacement was done without any issue at Tata ASS with supervision from Tata Engineer and the vehicle was back in shape within 2-3 months along with other repair works involved. So, don't worry and let the insurance take care of it, just make sure the chassis replacement work is done under the guidance/supervision of Mahindra engineers.

[sabsubs]

Originally Posted by Funny

I hope you and your parents are doing better now.

RTO officer would need to check and approve the chassis replacement and the new Chassis number would be updated in your RC card.

So, don't worry and let the insurance take care of it, just make sure the chassis replacement work is done under the guidance/supervision of Mahindra engineers.

Thank you very much for the encouraging words. I received information from the ASS that they will take care of the RTO work and conduct the chassis work in the presence of Mahindra engineers.

Originally Posted by Roy.S

@sabsubs I can understand that there may be reasons legal or otherwise to make the Youtube video private. The cat is out of the bag anyhow and everyone who is interested in the Indian automotive scene now knows about your accident. Perhaps you could put up a few images from the relevant seconds of the video or a set of Gifs.

Yes, agree with you. I have uploaded a GIF image of the accident.

[balenoed_]

Speed is one thing, but is the air bag sensors positioned is such a way that it will trigger the deployment only in the event of a crumpling of the cabin. And may be that is what happened here, where the cabin wasn't crumpled? Would air bag deployment in this particular accident made any difference rather than an additional expense?

But surprised on why the seat belt didn't hold the passenger in place but let his rib smash on the steering.

[pg2003]

Originally Posted by sabsubs

I asked the manager of the body shop; he told me, the air bags will deploy only at 120kmph. I was like I will counter him tomorrow.

Now that's what is called pure bullshitting do they really expect people to believe these claims? Please ask them to cite the reference from where Mr BS is quoting 120k as threshold for Airbag deployment.

I had met with an accident at around 40-50 kph in wagonR, the airbags had deployed, and despite that had blunt force trauma by seat belt, which led to fractured ribs, and even after 9 months sometimes get pain at injury site, despite all x ray CT etc being fine.

Visit a chest specialist ASAP bro and get a rib belt immediately, that'll keep the ribs in place, it prevents further exacerbation of your injury, That is the only thing which helps in rib injury, as the rib area can't be plastered.

Secondly, don't accept any verbal communication from Service centre, ask them to put each and every communication on mail/ atleast through SMS, as it looks like manager is trying to fool you.

In case of an accident, OEMs job is to give an estimate for making the vehicle roadworthy, insurance company's work is to decide if the costs involved are permissible as per your IDV.

If it's more than 80% of IDV normally it's written off as Total loss.

If the impact on chassis is such that it needs replacement then there is no chance it won't be TL. Maybe that's why ASC is avoiding answering you about the same. Just for reference, In case of our car, the repair estimate was 5.8L for wagonR.

Considering this is Scorpio, it's bound to be much higher.

Hope you recover from this ordeal soon and be back on road with some new vehicle.

Originally Posted by balenoed_

Speed is one thing, but is the air bag sensors positioned is such a way that it will trigger the deployment only in the event of a crumpling of the cabin. And may be that is what happened here, where the cabin wasn't crumpled? Would air bag deployment in this particular accident made any difference rather than an additional expense?

But surprised on why the seat belt didn't hold the passenger in place but let his rib smash on the steering.

My understanding is that a full frontal collision would invariably trigger Airbag, usually the sensors are located behind the bumper itself in the engine bay, and it's supposed to activate on impact.

As far as seat belts are concerned, they do restrain to some extent, but as momentum carries the body forward, there is risk of trauma due to pressure which is being exacted by seatbelt itself.

In most cases that contributes to rib injury, but seeing as this was a 90+ kph collision, in this case airbag getting deployed would have greatly mitigated the injury, as he must have hit the steering very hard, due to airbag THAT impact might've been lessened to a great extent.

Isn't the GNCAP testing done at 64kph, and if on 64 kph airbags can deploy, then how come on 90 they don't?

[sabsubs]

Originally Posted by pg2003

Visit a chest specialist ASAP bro and get a rib belt immediately, that'll keep the ribs in place, it prevents further exacerbation of your injury, That is the only thing which helps in rib injury, as the rib area can't be plastered.

Thank you very much for the suggestion. I will schedule an appointment with a specialist doctor. Nothing has changed since my first visit to the hospital after the accident. In fact, the pain has increased. The doctor did not give good treatment; I suppose.

Secondly, don't accept any verbal communication from Service centre, ask them to put each and every communication on mail/ atleast through SMS, as it looks like manager is trying to fool you.

Yes, I will make sure that all the communication happens through email. The senior manager of ASS told me that Mahindra engineers will inspect the damaged chassis and airbag issue and create a report. I will try to get the report & post it here.

If the impact on chassis is such that it needs replacement, then there is no chance it won't be TL. Maybe that's why ASC is avoiding answering you about the same. Just for reference, In case of our car, the repair estimate was 5.8L for wagonR. Considering this is Scorpio, it's bound to be much higher.

The total service quotation (approx) is Rs 3,30,642 /- out of this, the chassis replacement is Rs 1,25,000/- I am not sure whether this is the amount of chassis for ScorpioN. I will upload the service quotation in some time. I will upload the service quotation in some time.

Hope you recover from this ordeal soon and be back on road with some new vehicle.

Hopefully, by God's grace. I hope your words come true.

Note from Support: Please use multi-quote instead of highlights when responding. Thanks.

[sabsubs]

I received the service quotation from the ASS. I am attaching it here. The total amount quoted is Rs 330642/-. As per the body shop manager, the amount might vary by plus or minus 50k. So I assume it’ll go up by 50k, then it’s almost 4 lakhs for assembling

[inwester]

Originally Posted by sabsubs

Couple of days back, I met with an accident while driving my ScorpioN.

I thought the cars were moving. It was too late by the time I realized the cars were stationary and I rear-ended the car that was parked on the speed lane. The car took a hit, but the air bags did not open.

My ribs hit the steering wheel. I had my aged parents in the car. They are 80 years above. We all three were wearing seat belts.

sabsubs - hope you and your parents are doing okay after the accident. Glad to know all 3 were buckled up and it shows the importance of seat belts.

In most accidents, seat belts are the primary restraint system, then comes the airbags, which is a supplemental restraint system. Not sure why the airbag sensors didn't go off on your vehicle, something for the service center to figure out.

Their manual states you to report this to the service center -
"Even if the airbags do not deploy during an accident, take your vehicle to an Mahindra Authorised Dealer for a thorough inspection of the airbag and seat belt systems, no matter how minor the accident. The airbag system could have been damaged, and may not work as intended in the future, resulting in serious injury."

Their are certain cases in which the airbags won't deploy. Mahindra cites these examples in their Scorpio N manual. Hard to see without the video what type of impact you had, but you can check it and confirm with the service center.







This brings me to the final point, whether ADAS, with automatic emergency braking and/or adaptive cruise control, would have prevented this collision? I believe so, for the most part.

In India, I understand why people don't think ADAS is a practical solution in the crowded cities and where lane discipline isn't followed, but on a clearly marked 2-lane divided highway like this, I bet it would've come handy or at least reduced the impact of the crash.

Perhaps more cars in India will come with ADAS in the future and people with a lot of highway driving should seriously consider this in the vehicle during their next purchase.

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by audioholic

That's not the case in a ladder frame chassis vehicle. In fact that's one of the benefits of a ladder frame compared to a monocoque car. The entire ladder frame will be replaced instead of any cutting and welding and it's one of the most straight forward jobs.

It's easy to look at curated videos, probably. I won't trust most service stations here to do such a detailed job. I can almost bet on this if you can find any workshop locally that gets their Torque wrenches recalibrated every Twelve months (mandated period for commercial workshops). You can even try this in MB workshops and update With Mahindra, I won't be surprised if they actually use one in the first place. I can continue with the perils of such a significant job.

Originally Posted by prajwalmr62

Q1 - Airbag deployment is not determined by strength of the car, but the strength of human body. It doesn't matter how the car absorbs the impact energy, but how much human body traveling along with car, is going to loose that kinetic energy build up.

Sorry, I don't understand this. Maybe a little OT for the thread, but I don't think current cars are so intelligent to deploy the Airbags in stages based on occupants' weight. I have heard of multi-stage Airbags opening based on the speed or impact forces, but the weight of occupants? Can you share some examples of such cars?

Originally Posted by sabsubs

I received the service quotation from the ASS. I am attaching it here. The total amount quoted is Rs 330642/-. As per the body shop manager, the amount might vary by plus or minus 50k. So I assume it’ll go up by 50k, then it’s almost 4 lakhs for assembling:

I am not recommending the replacement of the chassis without involving the manufacturer. Based on the findings, the Dealer or the manufacturer first needs to give you reasons for the non-deployment of Airbags. To me, that should be the starting point. Let Mahindra answer in writing that they have checked everything and the Airbags are not deployed as per the manufacturer's requirement in the crash. When this point is raised with the manufacturer, I feel they will comeup with something that saves you from this chassis replacement.

In such a relatively minor case, I prefer repairs to the chassis, where the basic structure does not seem to be compromised, rather than complete change and then going after the Mahindra dealership for endless auxiliary problems that will crop up after this change. Many high-quality chassis straightening tools are available these days, and you can even measure the outcome. I recollect partial chassis components used to be available in the past. Ask the dealership. Try your best to get this corrected, repair it, and sell the car if you do not have confidence (I won't just because of the Airbag thing). If you get your chassis replaced, you are looking at a massive resale hit in addition to the other problems that happen to come, given the workmanship at the dealer level.

So, tell the dealership to review everything with the manufacturer and present an alternate solution.

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

It's easy to look at curated videos, probably. I won't trust most service stations here to do such a detailed job. I can almost bet on this if you can find any workshop locally that gets their Torque wrenches recalibrated every Twelve months (mandated period for commercial workshops). You can even try this in MB workshops and update With Mahindra, I won't be surprised if they actually use one in the first place. I can continue with the perils of such a significant job.

I would agree with you for a job like an engine rebuild or something like intense bodywork related to the frame of a monocoque. They require both experience and a good tool collection in good shape. For a dealership that sells BOF cars like Mahindra, Toyota, replacing the ladder frame is as mainstream as a suspension overhaul. After all, the body of the car simply rests on the ladder frame and is secured in place with a few bolts. The example video is just one of many available which makes it evident that its a common job done at most dealerships. Such things are much more common than say complex accident repairs which involve replacement of body panels. There is not much that can go wrong with this. Worst case due to improper tightening of the body frame fasteners there might be some vibrations or rattles etc but it's all fixable and won't cause major issues.

[Lobogris]

Originally Posted by Roy.S

From what I can tell the impact was at 90kmph. .

Originally Posted by StarrySky

I think the GPS speed printed on the video has a couple of seconds of lag. In the video, the Scorpio comes to an almost complete stop as soon as the rear-ending occurs. However, after the rear ending, the printed speed changes to something like 66km/h, and then 32km/h, and then changes to 1.9km/h. So I believe the OP did apply the brakes, but it wasn't enough.

Glad that everyone made it out safely. The impact definitely was not at 90kmph. Simply watch crash test videos that occur at 56 to 62kmph and see how much more the damage is. This crash was likely at around 40kmph from what is seen in the picture.

Even though the people stopping on the road were wrong, the driver should have slowed down and not gone over a blind stretch at high speed. Never drive fast when you can't see what is around the corner! Having said that, it is quite difficult to realise a vehicle is stopped if you only see the tail lights and the brake lights or emergency flashers are not on.

[prajwalmr62]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Sorry, I don't understand this. Maybe a little OT for the thread, but I don't think current cars are so intelligent to deploy the Airbags in stages based on occupants' weight. I have heard of multi-stage Airbags opening based on the speed or impact forces, but the weight of occupants? Can you share some examples of such cars?

My sentence sounds bit convoluted. But what I meant is,

• Airbag deployment does not depend on stronger or weaker body shell of the car. ie, a car built like a tank, should still have airbags deployed depending on the deceleration.
• I used the word strength of human body a bit liberally, but I meant average human's ability (test dummy?) to take a hit and survive an accident. Not an individual's capability/weight/health condition.

You have mentioned weight, I don't think it would be much of a determining factor. Although weight does increase the overall energy that need to be absorbed/dissipated, it can be solved simply by having bigger airbags and thicker belts.

Car's structure should ensure non-important parts of the car take the impact, not the passenger compartment. A well engineered body shell achieves this. But, seat belts and airbags must be present and active to reduce the passenger's momentum and to ensure they don't collide with car's interior in the process.

-----

Does Scorpio-N has pre-tensioners? Did they fire up in this case? If yes, then why did the airbags not get deployed? If no, then excessive movement (ie hitting steering wheel) is understandable. But airbags and pre-tensioners are meant to stop this exact scenario.

Bad design, or malfunction, either way this is not the expected behavior. Mahindra should investigate this and provide satisfactory answers.

---

On the side note, while I was browsing through, I came across this paper, quoted below.

In general, ladder frames are:

• Heavier than an integral structure, causing lower performance and/or higher fuel consumption;
• Weaker in torsion which can compromise the handling characteristics and the road grip;
• Not built with an efficient crumple zone, which generally may lead to tend to two different problems during a crash scenario
  • Excessive deceleration on the occupants;
  • The cabin could detach from the frame and cause injuries due to vehicle intrusions into occupant space.

This might explain why one forum member was mentioning they didn't hit the steering wheel in a similar accident (also no airbags), but sabsubs did.

[lejhoom]

Just read this thread. Happy to know that your parents and you came out from this accident without any serious consequences. Reading the description of your medical condition, I strongly recommend an MRI because such accidents can create embolism and it might take time to see the effects.

[sabsubs]

Originally Posted by lejhoom

Just read this thread. Happy to know that your parents and you came out from this accident without any serious consequences. Reading the description of your medical condition, I strongly recommend an MRI because such accidents can create embolism and it might take time to see the effects.

Okay. The pain is severe now. I will go by your word and will take an MRI scan. Thank you very much for your support & suggestion.

[aaggoswami]

Originally Posted by sabsubs

1. The speed at which I was driving was around 90kmph.
2. It was too late by the time I realized the cars were stationary and I rear-ended the car that was parked on the speed lane. The car took a hit, but the air bags did not open. My ribs hit the steering wheel. I had my aged parents in the car. They are 80 years above. We all three were wearing seat belts.
3. However, earlier today I received a call from the manager of the body shop, who informed me that the chassis had been affected and a new chassis has to be used.

First of all, glad to know to your parents are OK.

1. 90 kmph must be your cruising speed, but I think you did slow down before you rear ended the car parked in right most lane. Your actual speed of impact would be in the range of 40-50 kmph.

2. Ribs hit the steering wheel, the belts should have prevented this or atleast reduced the impact.

3. Chassis bent.

To summarize, your car's front end hit a stationary car ahead, the impact had sufficient energy to bend chassis and your ribs hit steering wheel. And airbags didnt deploy. Something definitely wrong with the car then. This isn't first issue of airbags not opening in Mahindra car. There is another thread wherein the airbags in XUV500 didnt open.

Am surprised to see so much impact being transferred to passengers while impact on the front of your Scorpio is not much.

[skywalker18]

Originally Posted by sabsubs

Thank you very much for the encouraging words. I received information from the ASS that they will take care of the RTO work and conduct the chassis work in the presence of Mahindra engineers.



Yes, agree with you. I have uploaded a GIF image of the accident.

Hi sabsubs,
Wishing you and your family a speedy recovery.

The top management of Mahindra should know what is the use of marketing a 5-star safety rating if the airbags don't deploy at highway speeds?

I saw the following video, which probably belongs to you, on my YouTube feed. You may do the needful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOhyec8GVvg