[DogNDamsel12]

This article is dedicated to all those people – men and women – who don’t need this article.

I feel quite humbled by my first meet with BHPians in Kolkata and am encouraged that I never felt treated any differently for being a woman. This was amazing, considering driving has always been traditionally a man’s job. Women in India, unlike the ones in Saudi, have never had to face policy and governmental issues or resistance for wanting to drive. But the social patriarchy has been strong all the same. So, it was no surprise that amidst some 40 men, we had just two women drivers. This also had me thinking how more and more women can be encouraged to be a part of such groups – because it is important that we see good driving as a life-skill and not just a hobby for Sunday mornings. So, I thought of penning down some of my rumination on how to prevent discrimination or drive women away and rather create a more inclusive community. So here goes -

1. Encourage and enhance learning experiences. Previously, I had participated in a workshop organized by Ford where we had the opportunity to drive with Gaurav Gill. Also, attended quite a few workshops that were organized by women rally drivers. While rallies are driving experience 10.0, driving is a life skill that men and women should both be encouraged to learn. Organize (events), collaborate (with suitable partners), include (people of all lawful age, gender etc.) so that driving can be normalized as a habit and practice in every family. Allow (even push) women at home to drive – mostly, this includes you patiently sitting next to someone who is a real shoddy driver. During my learning days, I have had people who have never driven a tricycle who have tried to put me down with their unkind feedback and drama. And then, I have had phenomenal mentors, sit patiently next to me and help me navigate through tricky puddles and ditches, so that I can learn to drive better in real life situations. You can be that for someone too.

2. Strongly be against offering special differential treatment to women. I did once win the title - “Fastest Woman Driver” at a friendly local rally. While I attribute this to beginner’s luck, there are twin effects of this win – apparently, an encouragement to women who have traditionally been told that driving is not a female thing; but this is also a mirror for us that we are in a different league from men as far as being at the wheels is concerned. I do not understand this. Driving is not soccer that requires physical strength. So, creating a separate category for women to win accolades in a skill that was predominantly male-dominated, is encouraging to us in the short run and does provides instant gratification. But this does nothing to remove discrimination or preferential treatment in the long run. And it tells us that it is okay to be mediocre. Which I don’t see a rationale for.

3. Do not accept different standards (of driving) for men and women. This point is much an extension of the previous one. Thankfully, I have had a fantastic mentor who has never accepted bad driving from me because I am “only but a poor woman.” Or, has never told me, “for a woman, you drive too well!” Quite on the contrary I have been told, if I am at the wheels it is my responsibility if the vehicle I am driving, so much as gets a scratch on the bumper from a vehicle which hit me from behind. I have always been made to take responsibility for my driving well, and also to drive considerably fearlessly to be able to whisk a bully off the road, if needed. Mostly, for a good or a bad driver, the need is to stop seeing their gender. "Most bad drivers are women!" Possibly, that is the easiest conclusion because a woman driving is not as commonplace a sight as a man driving. Though, by now you must have realised that I don't mean to condone anyone's bad driving at all. (And we do enjoy some of the funny parking videos too that reflect our gender!)

4. Group behavior - choose your words carefully. It is sometimes tempting to participate in conversations where women are being spoken of in a certain unkind way. There is a difference between what’s funny and what’s misogynist. Misogyny is not just a general hatred for women. Sometimes, misogyny is also a man (or a woman)-of-honour sitting down with a crowd of men/women who are jeering at and denigrating a “strange” woman – only coz she comes across as too independent, or unavailable for them or is anonymous to them, or may have driven past them too quickly. You get the drift! Women use cuss words as much as men. So, cuss words may not be offensive for many of us. Offensive is how you objectify a woman knowingly or unknowingly - talk about her personal life, your “scores” with her et al. So whenever a group is unable to include women in their conversations, check if it is because of cuss words or is it because the group (or some members in it) have an inclination to talk about women in “a certain way” and the presence of women may be obstructing that group behavior. How you talk about us when we are not watching you is who you are. So it is encouraging to be in an environment where men conscientiously try not to subscribe to something deranged just for the heck of entertainment.

5. Do not take selfies with women models next to an average car at a glittering auto expo. With all due respect, this is such a du-h-mb marketing strategy (if not offensive). Good wine needs no bush – as the old saying goes. Models with long, white legs and short dresses who draw you to shiny cars in an auto fair are trying to downplay your intelligence. This marketing technique has existed in the auto sector and has its legacy in “driving is a man’s job” emulsified with “sex sells.” Several men and women find it obnoxious for many reasons. But we cannot do much apart from balking from a distance. The time has come to stop using women as dumb garlands on a mediocre commodity. If he is trying to get a girl, and if we see him doing this, we only look at him as a featherhead and look away.

So, barring a couple of stray experiences, my stint with driving groups in Delhi and in Kolkata has been great. But it may not be the same everywhere and always. And in the spirit of this hobby/sport/profession/passion depending on where you are, I thought it may be a good time to catch up on this conversation.

Source: Autonotive News

[Aditya]

Thread moved out from the Assembly Line. Thanks for sharing!

[V.Narayan]

Thank you for this great opening thread and welcome to Team BHP. Delighted to see yet another confident, assured happy woman as a member. I like your post and agree with all your points wholeheartedly. There is a certain direction society is slowly taking and some men are at great risk of getting left behind. I've been nudging the Moderators that we need more women members as they will bring a different perspective and a different style of communication than the one we are so used to. As far as driving skills and manners go, in Delhi-NCR at least, I find both genders equally contributing to the pool of dangerous and troublesome drivers. Congratulations on winning the 'Fastest Women Driver' prize. We compliment each other. I would win the slowest driver prize without even trying - sometimes I even manage to cross 70 kmph. But let the prizes for the Woman category remain. It may not be needed for people like you who are more daring, more evolved more young. For others it does serve as an encouragement though I concede it could be seen as patronizing by some. Welcome and look forward to your posts.

[locusjag]

Originally Posted by DogNDamsel12

driving is a life skill that men and women should both be encouraged to learn. ...Allow (even push) women at home to drive – mostly, this includes you patiently sitting next to someone who is a real shoddy driver.

Well, you're preaching to the choir here! Ever since I committed a sin by failing to teach my ageing dad to drive, I've decided to compensate by teaching my wife and sister to drive. I've even helped a friend buy a used car so that his wife can learn to drive drive.

Driving is indeed a life skill and it has helped our families in many sticky situations.

2. Strongly be against offering special differential treatment to women.

Here, I'll differ a bit. I find the misogyny in our society to be rather excessive. Most learners struggle with getting off from a stop in 1st gear, usually at traffic stops. Women learners get cursed and honked at like anything especially. I couldn't bear the thought of my wife or sister getting abused like that. I purchased an automatic transmission equipped car so that their focus remains purely on learning to navigate our traffic. I helped get a Grand i10 AT for my friend's wife as well.

It's a bit like Bruce Lee's fighting philosophy - "Be like water my friend". When the opponent lunges at you, you can choose to get out of his way and strike at him instead of "being a man" and taking that punch. Learning to drive on an automatic is the equivalent of that philosophy in my opinion. It works.

Lastly, even despite being a very good but conservative driver - my wife has faced verbal abuse from men on two wheelers. It unnerves them that a mere woman would be about on 4 wheels whilst they are on 2 wheels. But what has left them most unnerved is the ferocity with which my wife has lashed them right back with her tongue. She should be a truck driver, if you know what I mean

[Kosfactor]

It is good that you drive and encourage others to drive, a much needed life skill for all! The upcoming generation does not seem to be too interested in self mobility, they think of it as a crime.

My mother has a licence, never really have driven much stating various excuses, my sister did the same thing. The root cause of it was not my father or the traffic or the vehicle itself, it's simply because they did not invest time and effort in getting good at it. You can learn how to operate an automobile by reading a book (I did) , but you cannot truly drive properly until you practice - a lot. Power steering, automatic transmission, Power Brakes etc may give you the impression that it's like a video game, but that's not the case it is physically demanding as you start adding kms to your drive, so you do have to get used to this.

Not many are interested in driving - it's a bigger problem than we think.

If there is something that makes driving attractive and joyful , it's certainly the way to go. Maybe we can have more TBHP meets and drives that help put more women as well as new drivers of both gender on the driver seat.

Come to think of it I have never been part of any such drives , it would be new for me as well. Usually it's just 3/4 cars , friends / relatives.

[GTO]

Nice thread! And great to see another cargirl on Team-BHP. May your breed only grow . Our membership is open to all and I wish more women would register & come onboard. But the truth is, not as many women are crazy about cars as men are. In my entire circle, I know of probably 1 or 2 tops. Every week, about 1% of membership applications are from gals.

I must add though, almost all the women I know love long drives & a nice car. But they wouldn't necessarily read & write on it the way we do.

Originally Posted by DogNDamsel12

Strongly be against offering special differential treatment to women

Agreed and so glad you made this point. I find it amusing when women want "equality" on one hand, but also "special treatment or categories" on the other.

Do not accept different standards (of driving) for men and women

Agreed with the premise of your post. But on a slightly related point, I must add that - in certain circumstances - women have to do things a bit differently than men. Primary reason = women safety is poor in India. Just to give you 1 example of 10 I could list, I wouldn't be comfortable with a woman from my family taking a cab alone late at night. You can call me a sexist all you want, but the fact is, India is a lousy place for women with lots of creeps around.

With all due respect, this is such a du-h-mb marketing strategy (if not offensive)

As a marketing major, I disagree with this. Good looks sell, and good looks get more eyeballs. If you think that's a dumb marketing strategy, then we should just remove all beautiful women from all advertisements. And while at it, let's also get rid of them from movies, tv shows & music videos. In many of these too, one could argue that pretty women (and men) are used as props. Why just restrict your comment to car shows? Lest we forget, there is a market for male models too, although admittedly smaller than that for women.

IMHO, we as a culture have become too easily offended today.

[RedTerrano]

Originally Posted by locusjag

Here, I'll differ a bit. I find the misogyny in our society to be rather excessive. Most learners struggle with getting off from a stop in 1st gear, usually at traffic stops. Women learners get cursed and honked at like anything especially. I couldn't bear the thought of my wife or sister getting abused like that. I purchased an automatic transmission equipped car so that their focus remains purely on learning to navigate our traffic. I helped get a Grand i10 AT for my friend's wife as well.

Err dont you think that IS a special differential treatment to women? Like you rightly said almost everyone struggles to get off from first gear. Given enough time, countless women (like men) have mastered it. The automatic transmission to over come this learning curve, just for women is going against the grain of differential treatment, by making it differential treatment.

[locusjag]

Originally Posted by RedTerrano

Err dont you think that IS a special differential treatment to women? Like you rightly said almost everyone struggles to get off from first gear. Given enough time, countless women (like men) have mastered it. The automatic transmission to over come this learning curve, just for women is going against the grain of differential treatment, by making it differential treatment.

It is differential treatment to women. And it's okay...it's more than okay because it works! The results speak for themselves. From having seen scores of women who flock to driving schools, learning to drive stick, getting a DL...to not ever driving in the real world, to having two women in my family who actually drive a car in real world conditions to run regular errands.

That's why I had alluded to Bruce Lee's fighting philosophy. His aim was to fight without fighting. You seem to say "that's cowardice right there" and you seem to advocate taking one's punches. What I'm saying is - there's no need to take those punches. Let's decrease the steepness of the learning curve to even the playing field a bit. Women (and men) tend to drop the idea of driving in the real world based on some bad experiences in their learning phase. But women have to contend with a worse handicap when they learn to drive in a world where they haven't been up and about, they haven't been riding bicycles or motorcycles as much as the menfolk. At the very least, they haven't operated a manual transmission ever, unlike us men who likely started out on 2 stroke motorcycles with toe-shifts. They just haven't had a learning curve like us men have had. Well, the women in my family have that handicap anyway. So I picked a horse for this course.

Note: my wife can now also drive my MT equipped TUV 300, by the way.

[Jeroen]

Welcome to TeamBHP and thanks for your post. Great introduction

Most bad drivers are women

There is overwhelming evidence of women causing less costly and dangerous accidents than men. There are quite a number of countries where women car insurance is cheaper than for their male counterparts. (E.g. we put all our cars in my wife’s name!)

So drive on, going by the almost exclusive male membership of TeamBHP you are likely to be in the top 1% best drivers of this forum, going by statistics only of course!

Jeroen

[Samba]

Nice thread.

Originally Posted by DogNDamsel12

[b] So, I thought of penning down some of my rumination on how to prevent discrimination or drive women away and rather create a more inclusive community. So here goes -

The problem is in the overall outlook of our society, once that changes, the points mentioned by you will automatically fit in.
But am happy to say, with time things are slowly changing for good.

[sarbaric]

Well penned!! Appreciate that you could put it all in words. I personally have been driving since 1987 and my association with driving groups in Kolkata has been great. Have participated in rallies and off roading events and have never felt any sense of discrimination as such. In a city rally (rally rab 2018) we did better than the other professional participants and the organiser called us to say, that as we were entitled to win both 1st as well as best lady's team, if we agree to let him give the best lady's team to someone else to encourage them!! We agreed and while announcing, he did mention that though it goes to us, we have agreed to give it to the next best team.

[DogNDamsel12]

Originally Posted by locusjag

It is differential treatment to women. And it's okay...it's more than okay because it works! The results speak for themselves. From having seen scores of women who flock to driving schools, learning to drive stick, getting a DL...to not ever driving in the real world, to having two women in my family who actually drive a car in real world conditions to run regular errands.

That's why I had alluded to Bruce Lee's fighting philosophy. His aim was to fight without fighting. You seem to say "that's cowardice right there" and you seem to advocate taking one's punches. What I'm saying is - there's no need to take those punches. Let's decrease the steepness of the learning curve to even the playing field a bit. Women (and men) tend to drop the idea of driving in the real world based on some bad experiences in their learning phase. But women have to contend with a worse handicap when they learn to drive in a world where they haven't been up and about, they haven't been riding bicycles or motorcycles as much as the menfolk. At the very least, they haven't operated a manual transmission ever, unlike us men who likely started out on 2 stroke motorcycles with toe-shifts. They just haven't had a learning curve like us men have had. Well, the women in my family have that handicap anyway. So I picked a horse for this course.

Note: my wife can now also drive my MT equipped TUV 300, by the way.

It is a perspective. I do tend to differ here a bit though. I have never ridden a bicycle - primarily because my dad wanted to "protect" me from the street while I was still a teenager. And till date I am not comfy with a two wheeler. That said, when I learnt to drive the first time, it was on my brand new WagonR shift stick. People did honk, glare and even said unkind things. But a year back the same behavior was exhibited by another ruffian - it is the nature of the people. If by buying them a DSG, you feel that it has helped the women in your family to drive - more power to you.

I dont mean to stare down at a nonsense-monger on the road. I would first always allow for the nonsense to bypass me the first time and rather enjoy my playlist. If they persist, second time I would rather downshift and be gone (sometimes cut them down to size).

You are right about the learning curve. That is attributed to the games and playtime items girls are exposed to traditionally - dollhouses and kitchen miniatures rule the roost. 0-14 years of age children pick up messages very strongly from their primary and secondary caregivers. This will entail a little longish conversation. But in essence you are right.

There ain't a one-size fits all solution. But I am glad everyone in this group sound quite supportive and open to the idea no matter what method they follow. That's awesomeness!

[landcruiser123]

Hi DogNDamsel12,
Thank you for writing this. You read my mind - this social acceptance of women drivers is still a problem in India and among a few Indians abroad. I've lost the number of times I've to keep reminding people who falsely believe in the stereotype that women are bad drivers. As an example, my mom have been driving for over 23 years now and have driven everything from a humble Maruti 800 to a Toyota Qualis and Innova on the highways.

With Uber & Ola, many women in their 20s completely refuse to drive. I must admit though - some of the best drivers I know are women in India who are generally far better drivers than men as they are more patient.

Originally Posted by DogNDamsel12

Driving is not soccer that requires physical strength.

Ok, there was some truth to this 40 + years ago in India, but not now. I know a particular aunt who was considered "cool" or "strange" as she had a driving license back in the 80s even though she always had a chauffeur at her service all the times. She once shared that she hated driving back in the day as cars like the Ambassador, Padmini, and Contessa lacked power steering, hydraulic brakes, smooth clutches, good air-conditioners, and the various creature comforts which we take for granted today. Add the cumbersome nature of the saree and footwear women wore, she hated driving and would rarely drive back in day. So, anyone who says "driving is a man's job" is still living in the bygone era. Today, She's a senior citizen who confidently drives her husband around in a Honda City AT.

Except in an emergency, my dad (who loves driving) admits that he won't drive a Jeep/Amby from the bygone era after driving 'modern' cars starting from his M800 in 1998

As a community, we all have to do our bit to change the social perception of women driving by helping our sisters, wives, girlfriends, and other friends & relatives learn how to drive safely.

Cheers

[AMG Power]

My sister may be a non conformist in the discussion on this thread.

She is a fabulous driver and way way better than my brother in law. Both of them now have several years of experience behind the wheel. BIL still drives in fits and starts and is anything but a smooth driver.

My sister on the other hand took to her very first driving lesson like a fish takes to water. Even on her very first drive, she drove like a pro.

When we went for a test drive of a Fiat Palio 1.6 - one of her first cars - the way she was gunning it and driving it to perfection, it looked like she was a race driver in her past life. BIL on the other hand would be the ....light’s green....now which of the 3 pedals do I press first....type.

Reversal of roles? Maybe. But the way my sister reverses into tight spots (without a rear view camera) would leave most men gawking.

And that brings me to my second sister who is a conformist. Take powers of observation on the road for instance. Once on a return from Ooty, pointing to a mountain she said “That wasn’t there when we went up...”

I didn’t debate the issue.

[Mountainman21]

I believe, there are certain things every person should do/ experience in life:

1) Drive
2) Should have a job (household work does count)
3) Must live independently at some point in life
4) Enough financial knowledge to manage bank accounts and investments
5) Be in a fight (losing or winning does not matter)

They are in the order of importance as per me. I literally pushed my wife to drive to her work place, cause she was too scared to be on the road alone.

Now, I can see a huge change in her attitude as she feels more independent (less reliant on me) for going to meet her friends, work place etc.

In summary, I would say driving is a life skill (at least in India due to poor public transport) and everyone of legal age should know it. Being a good driver depends a lot upon the teacher and a person's temperament irrespective of gender.