[Nissan1180]

Originally Posted by Lightning2

Since Material cost is high proportion of Production cost therefore Tata wants to save big on this and Uses much lower quality material or recycled and Mixed material from various Sources.

I believe this statement is completely unsubstantiated and most likely incorrect. The owners came out of the car without any injuries and that should vindicate the build quality of the car. A certain percentage of recycled steel is used by every manufacturer and it has nothing to do with lower tensile strength. High tensile steel refers to the material alloy composition and Chromium content, not the extent to which recycled steel is used. Most car makers in India use Tata Steel products and you can check the same on their web page.


In the absence of metallurgical test data, I fail to see why members are making unscientific claims that show a high degree of selection bias. Tata's have the highest standards of corporate ethics and they are known for that globally. Bringing disrepute to a brand without any scientific substantion is not justified. Maybe the thread can have a guideline about the technical contents of the posts?

[akshay380]

Originally Posted by Lightning2

You might have seen Tata vehicles use considerably more Metal in their vehicles, But it seemingly looks more reliable and Safe, But the fact is that the Quality off Material used by them is Much Low than what is used by Maruti, Hyundai, Toyota or even Nissan.

I would love to know the source of this data. I work for a large automobile OEM and when we did a teardown of Tata Bolt, Tiago and Hexa we didnt find any cost cutting in the mechanicals though there were a few on interior trims. In fact the quality of the material sometimes exceeds all the companies you listed, bar Nissan (we didnt bother checking them).

[rrsteer]

Originally Posted by akshay380

I would love to know the source of this data. I work for a large automobile OEM and when we did a teardown of Tata Bolt, Tiago and Hexa we didnt find any cost cutting in the mechanicals though there were a few on interior trims. In fact the quality of the material sometimes exceeds all the companies you listed, bar Nissan (we didnt bother checking them).

This is interesting. I wonder which large OEM manufacturer is so interested in a tear down of the above mentioned cars and what was their motivation, especially since none of them are exactly setting the sales chart on fire. Really interested to know the reason why the above mentioned cars were selected for a tear down - what was found as so special about them?

[akshay380]

Originally Posted by rrsteer

This is interesting. I wonder which large OEM manufacturer is so interested in a tear down of the above mentioned cars and what was their motivation, especially since none of them are exactly setting the sales chart on fire. Really interested to know the reason why the above mentioned cars were selected for a tear down - what was found as so special about them?

Sorry I can't disclose all these details but as a policy, almost every new car launched by a competitor is treated this way in three Auto OEMs I have worked for in last 12 years.

[Ironhide]

Originally Posted by Lightning2

HI
As GK Veda suggested Axles and most other part of Drive train are made up of Tensile steel, and one of very basic reiterations of Automobile engineering is Safety from breakdown and failures of critical components like axles, connecting rods, crank shafts, differential shafts, gears etc etc.
Steel is used, so that in worst case the object or that particular component does Not break suddenly.

You might have seen Tata vehicles use considerably more Metal in their vehicles, But it seemingly looks more reliable and Safe, But the fact is that the Quality off Material used by them is Much Low than what is used by Maruti, Hyundai, Toyota or even Nissan.
A Lot of tata vehicles you can come across being Towed, Rear or front Axle broken, Rear wheel broken from Hub, Differential shaft shear and broken, Rusting in body and chassis. In All of their vehicles be in Tata Winger, ACE, Indicas, Trucks. Since Material cost is high proportion of Production cost therefore Tata wants to save big on this and Uses much lower quality material or recycled and Mixed material from various Sources.

Are you (like the majority of us who've commented on this thread ) speculating / thinking aloud or you have solid, scientific data extracted after careful inspection of the vehicle and chemical / torsional/ fatigue analysis of the metal parts involved?

No offence here but most of us who are commenting here for and against part failure here are just thinking aloud, putting to fore whatever conjecture that our limited scientific knowledge and sound (to us) logic brings up.

The best way to know for sure would be an investigation into the matter by an independent, knowledgeable entity - something that has a remote likelihood of happening. In the interim, the team from Tata, some of whom I presume will be experts in their respective fields like automobile component design and metallurgy have supposedly inspected the vehicle and the failed part and pinned it (predictably) on driver error - after all they have Tata's new found reputation, bottomline and their own jobs to preserve !

It reminds me of another thread which discussed a similar accident, this time involving a Duster. http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/drive-...-rollover.html . The thread went on & on and the exact cause of the wheel shearing off could not be pinned down.

All in all, the fact remains that in absence of an independent probe by an agency (which is actually qualified to do it fairly & which is far from likely), we'll never know what exactly happened. The silver lining in the incident is that the passengers survived with relatively minor injuries and there was no fatality.

Originally Posted by devcar98

According to the knowledge I have procured all these year's, I don't think that the axle of the car can break so easily.
There must be some or the other reasons behind that:
1. The car might have met with an accident involving the rear end.
2. The car would have been overloaded.
3. The car might have taken an under belly blow making the axle rod defective.

P.S - I'm not against what the owner of the car is saying. Materialistic things can be bought anytime soon but life is more precious.

Originally Posted by gkveda

Simple logic: Any metal has torsion coefficient and ductility coefficient high which makes it JUST bend even when sudden high force is applied OR gradual pressure is applied

For a 1 year old car, if it is normal axle with quality metal, then, the axle should have been "bent" instead of "break" whether if it was a stone hit (Assuming driver lost control and hit a stone/rock - Read sudden Impact) OR gradual pressure increase (Since car turns right, pressure on left axle gradually increases due to car and passenger weight)

The road curve is not so deep that the axle breaks even if the car was with 150 KMPH.

So, logically, this looks to me as quality issue of the axle.

Originally Posted by Gildarts

I'm not an expert in metallurgy in any way, but my work involves material handling and have come across many broken chain slings. My opinion is that the fracture appears brittle and clean. The axle stud appears to have been welded along the circumference with the backing plate. The fracture is not due to shearing (Torsional load). It is due to impact only. May be TATA team is right. If both front and Rear Left wheel rims have same depth of dents and scratches (as reported by TATA), then both wheels are intact when the vehicle skidded on its side before flipping. That has to be verified. If wheels intact till the car flipped over, then the rear wheel axle stub breakage would have happened when the car landed heavily on its wheels while flipping.

Originally Posted by Nissan1180

I believe this statement is completely unsubstantiated and most likely incorrect. The owners came out of the car without any injuries and that should vindicate the build quality of the car. A certain percentage of recycled steel is used by every manufacturer and it has nothing to do with lower tensile strength. High tensile steel refers to the material alloy composition and Chromium content, not the extent to which recycled steel is used. Most car makers in India use Tata Steel products and you can check the same on their web page.


In the absence of metallurgical test data, I fail to see why members are making unscientific claims that show a high degree of selection bias. Tata's have the highest standards of corporate ethics and they are known for that globally. Bringing disrepute to a brand without any scientific substantion is not justified. Maybe the thread can have a guideline about the technical contents of the posts?

Originally Posted by akshay380

I would love to know the source of this data. I work for a large automobile OEM and when we did a teardown of Tata Bolt, Tiago and Hexa we didnt find any cost cutting in the mechanicals though there were a few on interior trims. In fact the quality of the material sometimes exceeds all the companies you listed, bar Nissan (we didnt bother checking them).

Cheers !

[saintofinternet]

So are TATA people reading this thread or are they just not interested in forum feedback to improve if they are failing somewhere?


i am a TATA customer since 2007 and such thing scare me to go back with TATA again!

[SaiSW]

Originally Posted by Lightning2

HI
As GK Veda suggested Axles and most other part of Drive train are made up of Tensile steel, and one of very basic reiterations of Automobile engineering is Safety from breakdown and failures of critical components like axles, connecting rods, crank shafts, differential shafts, gears etc etc.
Steel is used, so that in worst case the object or that particular component does Not break suddenly.

You might have seen Tata vehicles use considerably more Metal in their vehicles, But it seemingly looks more reliable and Safe, But the fact is that the Quality off Material used by them is Much Low than what is used by Maruti, Hyundai, Toyota or even Nissan.
A Lot of tata vehicles you can come across being Towed, Rear or front Axle broken, Rear wheel broken from Hub, Differential shaft shear and broken, Rusting in body and chassis. In All of their vehicles be in Tata Winger, ACE, Indicas, Trucks. Since Material cost is high proportion of Production cost therefore Tata wants to save big on this and Uses much lower quality material or recycled and Mixed material from various Sources.

Do you have sufficient proof to support your claim or is it just from thin air?

I'm pretty sure it's the latter. Almost every manufacturer uses certain proportion of recycled materials in their cars. In most cases, the quality of materials used by them is better than the ones used by most of the manufacturers you mentioned.

[AutoNoob]

Originally Posted by Lightning2

Uses much lower quality material or recycled and Mixed material from various Sources.

Originally Posted by Nissan1180

certain percentage of recycled steel is used by every manufacturer

Originally Posted by SaiSW

Almost every manufacturer uses certain proportion of recycled materials in their cars

I am sorry, I fail to understand the term recycled steel, if that's what you mean in the context of this thread. [Recycled plastic, yes that I understand.]

I have heard of scrap / waste steel from manufacturing processes (stamping / machining / casting etc.) which is sent back to steel manufacturers for processing. However, from what I understand, the final product from steel supplier has the desired properties/ chemistry irrespective of the source of raw material. If it doesn't, the final material is liable to be rejected. Even if such thing exists, atleast I am not aware, if car manufactures have option to order for 'cheaper' steel made from recycled steel.

Do you guys have any factual information on this or is it just another speculation ?