[harry10]

Originally Posted by VWAllstar

My wild card would be giving the captaincy and debut together to Ruturaj Gaikwad. I watched him play for Maharashtra in the recent on going Syed Mushtaq Ali Trophy. His batting form is at another level and he seems to be an astute captain as well. He will have Dhoni to learn from and he is young so can be groomed for a longer period.

However I dont see BCCI doing what SA did with G Smith or Zimbabwe doing with Taibu. We are not yet that aggressive and rely on traditional methods to work.

You got to be kidding me. Making Ruturaj Captain with a debut
Even Graeme Smith wasn't given Captaincy on debut. And they were in crisis with not too many viable options. We have a Rohit Sharma here as a good option. Ruturaj is a great find, let him concentrate on batting and making it big in Indian team first. There are many who promised but failed on big stage so let's not pressurize him.

Originally Posted by Oxy

So Kohli has now completed the grand slam of ICC event chokes in his captaincy:

1. Champions Trophy 2017
2. ODI World Cup 2019
3. World Test Championship 2021
4. World T20 2021

Glad he has stepped down as the T20 captain. He needs to be stripped off the ODI captaincy too, failing which the 2023 ODI World Cup is a disaster waiting to happen in front of our home crowds.

Why is Kohli always responsible?
What did other seniors do in those tournaments?
Batting failed in CT final 2017.
Failed again in ODI semi final 2019.
Again failed in WTC 2021
And once more failed in WT20 debacle.

So, what would a captain do if all batters will collectively fail in important matches. Atleast as captain he made 2 finals and 1 semi finals.

What if Rohit fails in T20 world cup next year and ODI would cup 2023?
Captain is as good as his team performance which ours forget to do in important matches since ages.

Originally Posted by narayans80

The only player to have that unenviable luxury was Sachin Tendulkar. I don't think any Indian player got such privileges in their career.

Dhoni is another, Kohli right now. As a player.

Originally Posted by AtheK

Honestly it's time to dissolve the ODI setup altogether, it is the orphan child right now. No one wants to see it anymore, it is borderline boring with majority of the results predictable.

ICC should put onus on T20 and Test with ODI gone for good, I for one won't miss it, and I hardly watch it anyway.

True. No one I know watches ODI anymore. But, it will stay for sometime.

Originally Posted by NPV

Well, if you go by the same logic, we shouldn't play T20I as well!
Right now in the ongoing T20 World Cup, isn't it the same ? predictable results based on toss and decision to bat or field first!

That has to be blamed on dew factor. Days game weren't affected. In Australia next year toss won't be a factor.

Originally Posted by ValarMorghulis

If India wins ODI WC 2024, trust me EVERYONE will watch it and it'll grow only popular.

2023 World cup. We will watch the world cup but subsequent ODI will not be watched as much.

Originally Posted by ValarMorghulis

What I feel is: The longer a game, the better are the chances of talent and skill coming up on top than pure luck.
In a Test: You can win a session or two based on luck, but you need pure talent and skill to win a test match.

In an ODI: You can win a powerplay or two based on luck, but you need pure talent and skill to win an ODI.

In a T20: You can win purely on luck and the opposition having an off day.

Hence the popularity, IMO.

I disagree.
Luck is a factor obviously.
But saying you can win T20 purely on luck isn't true at all. I don't know if anyone here still play but I play T20 club matches every weekend. There is a good amount of skill and planning required to win a match. It's highly competitive and couple of small mistakes changes the whole game.

T20 is only popular cos it finishes in 3 hours and there is jam packed action in all 20 overs.

[AtheK]

Shami gets belted even by Scotland, It's time he concentrated on his Test career, he is really not up for T20 format.

[padmrajravi]

Originally Posted by harry10

Why is Kohli always responsible?
What did other seniors do in those tournaments?
Batting failed in CT final 2017.
Failed again in ODI semi final 2019.
Again failed in WTC 2021
And once more failed in WT20 debacle.

To me, it is the captain's job to ensure such batting failures does not happen. That is why the captain is given a say in the selection. It does not matter if it is bowling failure or batting failure. If it is happening consistently, the captain will be blamed. If he can't take that responsibility ,he should stay as an individual contributor, not as captain. In cricket, the captain is not supposed to be an individual contributor in my opinion.

[VWAllstar]

Originally Posted by harry10

You got to be kidding me. Making Ruturaj Captain with a debut

I took a long shot!

Rohit Sharma is already 34 and can stay around for another 3 years. Considering the WC is only few months away, I understand it will be him taking up as the new Captain.

[Ananthang]

Originally Posted by VWAllstar

I took a long shot!

Rohit Sharma is already 34 and can stay around for another 3 years. Considering the WC is only few months away, I understand it will be him taking up as the new Captain.

I think we had Lee Germon from NZ way back during 1996 World cup who was made a captain on debut.

So why not India also give a try. Maybe a non playing captain too like the Tennis team.

On serious note, HitMan needs to captain atleast few matches for what he has done to Indian cricket. Maybe till 2023 World Cup and then hang the boots.

[landcruiser123]

Lol. This scheduling is getting ridiculous.

WT20 final is on Nov-14th.
India vs NZ (in India) starts on Nov-16th.
India vs RSA (in RSA) starts on Dec-17th.

Got to feel for the cricketers here.

[VWAllstar]

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

Lol. This scheduling is getting ridiculous.

WT20 final is on Nov-14th.
India vs NZ (in India) starts on Nov-16th.
India vs RSA (in RSA) starts on Dec-17th.

Got to feel for the cricketers here.

Till the time they are getting paid well, not even the players would come forward and make statements on the schedule. This is like increasing sales target to cover up losses during the pandemic.

However, Indian Team will only benefit from this. We are in a position to play 2 separate teams with both being equally competitive.

My guess is Virat, Bhumrah & Shami would be rested for NZ T20s. Rohit to captain and Ruturaj, Arshdeep & Gill to play.

If my memory serves me well, it is the first time we have many options for wicketkeeping batters. In the late 90's post Mongia's exit, I remember so many sub standard ones were tried - Ajay Ratra, V Dahiya, D Mongia (he did keep) & our very own 'chump' ex selector MSK Prasad.

On current form: KL Rahul - I Kishan - S Samson - R Pant - K Bharat

[pandey.jai]

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

Lol. This scheduling is getting ridiculous.

WT20 final is on Nov-14th.
India vs NZ (in India) starts on Nov-16th.
India vs RSA (in RSA) starts on Dec-17th.

Got to feel for the cricketers here.

Are there any test matches against NZ? If it’s just the T20 and ODIs, then they’re just meaningless games that only the second string Indian team should play. The big guns can come in for tests.


Edit -
Of course that is not to say that the scheduling is ridiculous. I genuinely hope the fans are fatigued by this constant barrage of games and give this series a miss.

[antz.bin]

Originally Posted by VWAllstar

However, Indian Team will only benefit from this. We are in a position to play 2 separate teams with both being equally competitive.

My guess is Virat, Bhumrah & Shami would be rested for NZ T20s. Rohit to captain and Ruturaj, Arshdeep & Gill to play.

If my memory serves me well, it is the first time we have many options for wicketkeeping batters. In the late 90's post Mongia's exit, I remember so many sub standard ones were tried - Ajay Ratra, V Dahiya, D Mongia (he did keep) & our very own 'chump' ex selector MSK Prasad.

On current form: KL Rahul - I Kishan - S Samson - R Pant - K Bharat

I have an even more radical idea.

2 Separate Teams and 2 separate team managements for Tests and T20s. ODIs are 2nd grade citizens anyways now, they can pick and choose players and staff whenever required for an ICC tournament.

The T20 team to be run like a professional organisation (like Franchises are) with totally separate support staff. No sharing of coaches, mentors etc. between the 2 sets. The singular goal of the T20 setup is to use data to make sure the best people are included in the team for the best roles. Recent T20 form at any level can be the ONLY consideration, unless someone performs really really well in the ODI powerplays / death overs.

When the clutter and the reputations are taken out of the equation, that is when we can turn this around into what England has going for them.

[harry10]

We can say whatever we want but the scheduling will stay like this and BCCI will do whatever they want as there is no one to control them. This is why I have become somewhat detached and just enjoy the games when I can.
Let's move on.

NZ is playing 3 T20's. Great time to test everyone from Gaikwad to Gill, Avesh Khan, Bishnoi and whoever else is possible. I expect India to win these comfortably if all seniors were playing but now it will be an even contest.

2 tests are starting from 25 Nov and I am more interested in them as it will be our full strength squad barring injury. I expect a 2-0 whitewash of NZ and nothing less than this will please me

[whencut86]

Originally Posted by harry10

Why is Kohli always responsible?
What did other seniors do in those tournaments?
Batting failed in CT final 2017.
Failed again in ODI semi final 2019.
Again failed in WTC 2021
And once more failed in WT20 debacle.

So, what would a captain do if all batters will collectively fail in important matches. Atleast as captain he made 2 finals and 1 semi finals.

CT2017 - Kohli won toss and chose to field. Pak used to choke during run chase but Captain thought differently though in this case and the batting fumbled while chasing 340 under pressure. Even the mighty Aussies during their consecutive WC winning years won the toss and batted first despite having the likes of McGrath, Lee and Warne in their bowling lineup. Says something doesn't it. Kohli is not lucky with tosses and yet he wins one important toss in the CT2017 final and he wanted to chase. Not a sensible decision and ego driven one.

WC2019 - Kuldeep Yadav was a better bowler than Chahal in the run up to the 2019 WC. Looking at their numbers, Kuldeep had the upper hand in all three formats. He had played 33 ODIs and taken 67 wickets at an impressive average of 20.07. Meanwhile, Chahal had picked 56 wickets in 34 ODIs at an average of 25.55. Considering these stats, it becomes clear that Kuldeep had performed better than Chahal in ODIs till 2019 WC. Kuldeep had one bad game against England at Birmingham (which is a very short ground). He was not favored much post that and was not picked for the SF against NZ despite being the better bowler. Surprisingly, Chahal bowled worse than Kuldeep in the Eng game but he was picked in the semis and we know how it ended. I have nothing against Chahal personally and people can dismiss this as one bad game but it is still the captaincy decision which led to this. He gave away most runs from bowlers side in a low scoring game in the Semis and we ended up giving away 20-25 runs more than we should have.

WTC 2021 - Purely dumb captaincy. When your day one is washed out and rain is predicted on all other days, you never pick 2 spinners in the team. Should have gone with 5 fast bowlers or with Ashwin and 4 fast bowlers if Ashwin had to be included in the team. Jadeja didn't bowl much in this match at all compared to other bowlers. Umesh and Siraj in the playing 11 would have made sure the NZ tail didn't add 100 odd runs. In a low scoring contest this would have made a big difference. We would have ended up getting a lead of 30-40 runs in the first innings with the way Ishant and Shami bowled. Bumrah shockingly had an off game and was not his best and we had no other pacer to bank on for the team. The team selection is to be based only on conditions and if it warrants 5 fast bowlers we have to go with that and we had 5 top class fast bowlers in the squad.

If you are wondering, this was a one off blunder from Kohli as a captain, then look no further than the 2018 Lord's test against England. Same situation and same dumb team selection. First day washed out due to rain and rain predicted on all other days. He went with 2 spinners in Ashwin and Kuldeep and he bowled Kuldeep only for 7-8 overs in the match. He doesn't even learn from past mistakes.

WT20 - Team selection did us in. As much as I respect Rohit, Rahul and Kohli as batsmen, these 3 need time to settle in and then score. I am not bothered about them scoring at 180 plus strike rate against minnows but more concerned about how they score against top teams. We need someone at the top with intent who can make sure we end up with 60+ runs at the end of powerplay so that we can continue the momentum and post a big total. Worst case even if we end up losing 4-5 wickets in 10-12 overs we still have a chance of posting a good total. With all our IPL talent getting such batsmen is not a difficult task for the captain but he failed there. Look at how England play and therein lies the difference. Even in the worst case scenario, a score of 100-130 for loss of 4-5 wickets after 10-12 overs is much better than a score of 40-60 for loss of 5 wickets after 10-12 overs. This is where we fell short against Pak and NZ. Also regarding the selection of Varun over Ashwin, the less talked about it the better. Kohli's fifty of 45 balls in Pak game is not even T20 worthy in today's scenario and that had an effect on score as well. Please don't tell me Pak has a world class bowling attack which they don't but we made them look like one in that match. Compare this to how Butler paced his innings against SL after Eng lost early wickets and got a 100 odd score of 60 odd balls.

No questions on Kohli's commitment here but he lets his ego and aggression get the better of at times when he should have reined them in. This affects team selections and team morale maybe.

[harry10]

Originally Posted by whencut86

CT2017 - Kohli won toss and chose to field. Pak used to choke during run chase but Captain thought differently though in this case and the batting fumbled while chasing 340 under pressure. Even the mighty Aussies during their consecutive WC winning years won the toss and batted first despite having the likes of McGrath, Lee and Warne in their bowling lineup. Says something doesn't it. Kohli is not lucky with tosses and yet he wins one important toss in the CT2017 final and he wanted to chase. Not a sensible decision and ego driven one.

WC2019 - Kuldeep Yadav was a better bowler than Chahal in the run up to the 2019 WC. Looking at their numbers, Kuldeep had the upper hand in all three formats. He had played 33 ODIs and taken 67 wickets at an impressive average of 20.07. Meanwhile, Chahal had picked 56 wickets in 34 ODIs at an average of 25.55. Considering these stats, it becomes clear that Kuldeep had performed better than Chahal in ODIs till 2019 WC. Kuldeep had one bad game against England at Birmingham (which is a very short ground). He was not favored much post that and was not picked for the SF against NZ despite being the better bowler. Surprisingly, Chahal bowled worse than Kuldeep in the Eng game but he was picked in the semis and we know how it ended. I have nothing against Chahal personally and people can dismiss this as one bad game but it is still the captaincy decision which led to this. He gave away most runs from bowlers side in a low scoring game in the Semis and we ended up giving away 20-25 runs more than we should have.

WTC 2021 - Purely dumb captaincy. When your day one is washed out and rain is predicted on all other days, you never pick 2 spinners in the team. Should have gone with 5 fast bowlers or with Ashwin and 4 fast bowlers if Ashwin had to be included in the team. Jadeja didn't bowl much in this match at all compared to other bowlers. Umesh and Siraj in the playing 11 would have made sure the NZ tail didn't add 100 odd runs. In a low scoring contest this would have made a big difference. We would have ended up getting a lead of 30-40 runs in the first innings with the way Ishant and Shami bowled. Bumrah shockingly had an off game and was not his best and we had no other pacer to bank on for the team. The team selection is to be based only on conditions and if it warrants 5 fast bowlers we have to go with that and we had 5 top class fast bowlers in the squad.

If you are wondering, this was a one off blunder from Kohli as a captain, then look no further than the 2018 Lord's test against England. Same situation and same dumb team selection. First day washed out due to rain and rain predicted on all other days. He went with 2 spinners in Ashwin and Kuldeep and he bowled Kuldeep only for 7-8 overs in the match. He doesn't even learn from past mistakes.

WT20 - Team selection did us in. As much as I respect Rohit, Rahul and Kohli as batsmen, these 3 need time to settle in and then score. I am not bothered about them scoring at 180 plus strike rate against minnows but more concerned about how they score against top teams. We need someone at the top with intent who can make sure we end up with 60+ runs at the end of powerplay so that we can continue the momentum and post a big total. Worst case even if we end up losing 4-5 wickets in 10-12 overs we still have a chance of posting a good total. With all our IPL talent getting such batsmen is not a difficult task for the captain but he failed there. Look at how England play and therein lies the difference. Even in the worst case scenario, a score of 100-130 for loss of 4-5 wickets after 10-12 overs is much better than a score of 40-60 for loss of 5 wickets after 10-12 overs. This is where we fell short against Pak and NZ. Also regarding the selection of Varun over Ashwin, the less talked about it the better. Kohli's fifty of 45 balls in Pak game is not even T20 worthy in today's scenario and that had an effect on score as well. Please don't tell me Pak has a world class bowling attack which they don't but we made them look like one in that match. Compare this to how Butler paced his innings against SL after Eng lost early wickets and got a 100 odd score of 60 odd balls.

No questions on Kohli's commitment here but he lets his ego and aggression get the better of at times when he should have reined them in. This affects team selections and team morale maybe.

CT 2017-
Fakhar Zaman was caught early in his innings but that was a No ball from Bumrah. If he was out then and there Pakistan could have folded a lot early and the decision to bowl first would be justified. And then the whole batting order collapsed barring Hardik. India were considered great chasers that time and Kohli was considered as master of it. So, no surprise they decided to chase.

And it's the entire management which includes coach and Vice Captain who decides what team combination will be played and whether to bat or field first if they win the toss, plus a whole team of laptop analysts who give them inputs what will be the best course to win, it's not just the Captain who makes the decision.

WC2019-
Again, it's not just Captain who decides who will play and who will sit out. It's the whole think tank. Chahal was played cos NZ are considered weak against wrist spin. He didn't bowled well which can happen to anyone. However, 240 was chase able any given day but once again Top order collapsed and they lost by 18 runs. Once again it's the batting unit which didn't worked. What can a Captain do if your specialist world class batsman decides to shit the bed collectively in knockout matches. It's a pattern which is going on since long.

WTC 2021-
Kohli can't catch a break. He plays Ashwin in WTC final and Ashwin is actually the best bowler in it for India and still gets flak why not another pacer instead of him. He doesn't plays Ashwin in England tests and again gets flak why not Ashwin in place of a pace bowler.

If's and but's only work in hindsight. What will your bowling attack do when you just make 217 and 170 in both your innings. Batsman didn't do there job. Bowling attack has been doing their job since few years but they can't produce miracles every match. Bumrah had an off match, happens. India could have still made a game of it if batsman have given them something to defend. You don't make less than 220 each innings and expect to win a World championship final no matter how good is your bowling attack.

Plus NZ were in touch with the pitches and all players in form due to recent 2 tests they played against England. We do know England pitches suit NZ players extremely well and not the Indian players. But, I still blame BCCI for not giving Indian players proper match practice before WTC final in England.

And once again. Think tank decides who plays, not just Captain.

Kohli took Captaincy in middle of Australia tour when MSD suddenly decided he is quitting. India were at no.7 test ranking at that time. Kohli/Shastri combo took them to no.1 ranking and has won 5 consecutive test maces staying at the top. If he was such a rubbish test Captain India will be still at no.7 or even below. Btw, we are still no. 2 and will be again No.1 after NZ series end. It's all but a given we may win the test mace again in 2022. Consecutive 6th year at no.1.

And we just won 2 test matches in a single series in England. This has happened after 1986, not a small feat for any Indian team. We would have won the series too if Corona issue wouldn't have happened. Anyways, decider is next year so we will see.

WT20-
So, who should have played if not Rohit, Rahul and Kohli?

Ishan kishan? He played against NZ and failed and even that wasn't liked by people. They played him in his best suited position at opening. It didn't work cos that's how the game is. Some day it will, some day it won't.

If Kohli and Pant won't have played the way they did then we would have folded below 100. 150 wasn't a bad score, it's been a par score in most matches this year. But, dew did the bowling attack no favor and Pakistan played brilliantly.

Also, Pakistan has a world class bowling attack. They are the only team undefeated going in the semis. Maybe, you don't follow their cricket but I do. Comparing it to SL attack which Buttler played against isn't fair.

In T20I-

Buttler-
Average- 34.61
Strike rate- 141.49

Rohit-
Average- 32.32
Strike Rate - 139.61

Rahul-
Average - 40.72
Strike Rate- 143.29

Kohli -
Average- 52.05
Strike rate - 137.91

Do tell me how these 3 players are any less than Buttler and who else should have played for India instead of these 3.

Kohli hasn't won an ICC tournament as Captain. That's true and will remain a bad spot on his captaincy career. But as a whole he has been an excellent Captain. Records speak for itself -

Tests- 65 matches
Won- 38 Lost - 16

ODI - 95 matches
Won - 65
Lost- 27

T20- 50 matches
Won- 30
Lost - 16

I don't think anyone else in World cricket has such a good Captaincy record in all formats right now.

[PPS]

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

India vs RSA (in RSA) starts on Dec-17th.
Got to feel for the cricketers here.

I bet there won't be any warm-up games before the SA series! Then again these guys will complain about not being used to the pitches. Same old familiar story! Expected better from Ganguly being an ex-player.

Originally Posted by harry10

Kohli hasn't won an ICC tournament as Captain. That's true and will remain a bad spot on his captaincy career. But as a whole he has been an excellent Captain. Records speak for itself -

Kohli has had a good record, under Shastri's tenure they won more than 60% of their games. But problem arises when Shastri proclaims in exaggeration that this Indian Team is 'one of the great cricket teams in the history of the game', which it certainly isn't!

[am1m]

Originally Posted by PPS

But problem arises when Shastri proclaims in exaggeration that this Indian Team is 'one of the great cricket teams in the history of the game', which it certainly isn't!

I think you've put your finger on it.

Our team record, especially in Tests is great under Kohli, no doubt. (I wouldn't credit Shastri with anything apart from bluster at press conferences and doing what the captain wants, sorry). But where fence-sitters like me get put off is the "always on" aggression, even off the field (though I'm happy when it's directed at those who deserve it back- like the Aussies and the Brits on the field when they keep indulging in it themselves!) and overreaction to any form of perceived criticism, plus this constant refrain about being the "best Indian team ever" (though the media is more responsible for that constant refrain at any tournament.) This is something that the fans emulate too unfortunately.

Hopefully, under Dravid some of his "actions speak louder than words" personality will rub off on the team. What I'd love to see for once is support when they lose and constructive feedback accepted graciously even when we win. Not this always swinging between idolizing as gods in victory and demonizing after a loss. Time we moved on as Indian cricket fans from that.

[harry10]

Originally Posted by PPS

I bet there won't be any warm-up games before the SA series! Then again these guys will complain about not being used to the pitches. Same old familiar story! Expected better from Ganguly being an ex-player.


Kohli has had a good record, under Shastri's tenure they won more than 60% of their games. But problem arises when Shastri proclaims in exaggeration that this Indian Team is 'one of the great cricket teams in the history of the game', which it certainly isn't!

Shastri is a loud mouth. Maybe that's why he is so much popular as a commentator

Yeah, in history of the game this isn't a great team. But, in the current generation teams it is indeed great just cos they can now win home and away both which none of the others are able to do.

Everyone believes SA series is a given and we are winning just cos there is no AB devilliers this time. But, they still have an excellent pace attack and decent batsman. Won't be easy at all. It's the final frontier. We have never won a series there. If our batting clicks this may be the best chance to do it.

NZ series ends on 7th. SA starts on 17th. With travelling and some quarantine involved I don't see any practice match happening so you might be right. We will be under prepared.