[Sli_ce]

Sorry for going a bit off topic,
I think adding a Poll here can sum up a lot of topics into simple choices:

If given an opportunity to emigrate and reside in a foreign country,

1. I can never leave India! period.
2. Would be the first one to leave! want to leave right this moment.
3. I have no issues living anywhere, i consider myself a "global citizen"



Mods - request you please add a poll to the thread. Thanks!

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by e1t1bet

Because in professional setups in India, regional discriminations don't happen. And that doesn't happen outside India? Blacks in the US, all minorities in the UK, Surinamies and other former slaves in Europe....
As I said, a person from the North East can still become the CEO of a big company in India. Something that can never happen in France or Canada or Australia.

You've got to be kidding when you say there is no regionalism in India's professional set up.

Originally Posted by e1t1bet

Minorities live in ghettos worldwide. Some people do not wish to live in Ghettos, and some are up for it. If living in a ghetto or quasi-ghetto doesn't bother you, the west is awesome. If it does bother you, then mera bharat mahan.

You mean to say everyone who emigrates out of India lives in a ghetto? You know ghetto is a slum, right?

[vivekiny2k]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Given a choice between India and Abroad, the only which stops most people is Family. In India you can be with your family within 2-3 hours in the US, its a trans atlantic/pacific flight.

if you have filed for an extension or some other weird situation, chances of traveling to india are next to none, forget about commute times.

For somebody who's lived in Punjab whole his life, Bangalore or Chennai or Hyderabad will be more alien than Vancouver.
for somebody from Ahemdabad, chennai would be more alien than California.

I beg to differ. in hyd or bangalore, you can still stop in the middle of road, spit some pan, abuse the autowallah relating to the women in his family (I guess I went a little too far here), and move on. Just like in punjab

Actually, the factor that you are only 2-3 hours away from your family is relevant only in emergency situations. Otherwise, trips to hometown are annual only, at best. Same is the case with people settled outside india as well. They also make annual trips to their hometowns.

I prefer once or twice an year visits too. but having an option and not having to deal with immigration is a big comfort.i have asked my arents to visit us in US two times only because I didn't want the hassle. As samurai mentioned, his relatives had to return leaving all their belonging in US and not knowing how to dispose it.

[e1t1bet]

Originally Posted by amitoj

You've got to be kidding when you say there is no regionalism in India's professional set up.

Are you trying to imply that Tata, Reliance, Bharti, ICICI, HDFC, ONGC,ITC, OIL, HUL, P&G, Infosys, Wipro etc etc etc discriminate on the basis of a person's native state and language? How profound!!!

Originally Posted by amitoj

You mean to say everyone who emigrates out of India lives in a ghetto? You know ghetto is a slum, right?

No. A ghetto need not be a slum.
From wiki:

"Ghetto was originally used in Venice to describe the area where Jews were compelled to live. A ghetto is now described as a "portion of a city in which members of a minority group live; especially because of social, legal, or economic pressure."[1]"

At this point, I must also say that a lot of people move abroad for pure career opportunities. And yes, that is a big plus abroad. India doesn't have those many industries, and good univs are difficult to get into.

[vivekiny2k]

Originally Posted by e1t1bet

Are you trying to imply that Tata, Reliance, Bharti, ICICI, HDFC, ONGC,ITC, OIL, HUL, P&G, Infosys, Wipro etc etc etc discriminate on the basis of a person's native state and language? How profound!!!

actually there are examples of managers favoring based on such criteria, although can not be proved.

[VLOCT]

@e1t1bet;

You seem to be so angry at everything non-indian. Is there racism in the world? yes. It's true in the west and its very much true in the east. To me it seems like you had a bad experience outside India. I'm sorry about that. Not everyone has had that.

Originally Posted by e1t1bet

Minorities live in ghettos worldwide. Some people do not wish to live in Ghettos, and some are up for it. If living in a ghetto or quasi-ghetto doesn't bother you, the west is awesome. If it does bother you, then mera bharat mahan.

This is just false. In fact, Indians are the richest ethnic community in the United States and that includes the Jews. Honestly, I don't know where you get your information from. I've yet to see an Indian in a ghetto and I've lived in North America for 17 years.

Originally Posted by e1t1bet

Calling someone white or brown or desi or madrasi or chinki or bangaali or nigger or whatever is racism as well, but is not very detrimental provided the victim is tolerant enough.

I don't even know what this means. What's tolerant enough? Is that the point just before you get beaten up? Why should anyone be tolerant of racism to any level?

[e1t1bet]

Originally Posted by vivekiny2k

actually there are examples of managers favoring based on such criteria, although can not be proved.

I concur. Yes, there are region based biases, but I have a few points to make here:
(1) It isn't something that is specific to India.
(2) Such biases are really at a microscopic level. A person always has the liberty to quit and join another company. Institutions do not discriminate, and that was my point.

Originally Posted by VLOCT

You seem to be so angry at everything non-indian. I'm sorry to tell you that most of your claims are just false.

I have pointed out the pros with living abroad. So I don't unequivocally hate the west. There are LOTS of positives. But everything is not awesome, that is my point.

Originally Posted by VLOCT

Is there racism in the world? yes. It's true in the west and its very much true in the east. To me it seems like you had a bad experience outside India. I'm sorry about that. Not everyone has had that.

I have spent half my life abroad, I have had awesome experiences to be honest. Still, I would address reality candidly. And the 'bad' experiences that I have had, EVERYONE goes through them. Not everyone admits it. Someone pointed this out earlier. A lot of Indians living abroad are just too conscious and don't reveal the true picture back home.

Originally Posted by VLOCT

This is just false. In fact, Indians are the richest ethnic community in the United States and that includes the Jews.

(1) Read my posts again. I never said a lot against US. To a large extent UK is quite cool as well. Both of these countries are extremely cosmopolitan and you'd not run into major issues. Yes there would be minor problems, not major ones.

I was primarily talking of Aus, Canada, EU (outside UK) etc.
(2) Indians are a rich community in North America because Indians migrating to the US also happen to be highly skilled (engineers, bankers, doctors.....). It is very difficult for an unskilled Indian to migrate to the US.

Originally Posted by VLOCT

Honestly, I don't think you know what you're talking about. I've yet to see an Indian in a ghetto and I've lived in North America for 17 years.

(1) A Ghetto is not just a physical location. It is a sociological concept. If you are forced to live around people from your country, and mix exclusively with them, then you are living in a ghetto.
(2) North America is one of the coolest places to emigrate to, with UK. Discrimination, from what I understand, is very subtle (something most people can live with)

Originally Posted by VLOCT

I don't even know what this means. What's tolerant enough? Is that the point just before you get beaten up? Why should anyone be tolerant of racism to any level?

No. Tolerant = not reacting violently to juvenile name calling.
Calling me a sand nigger does not irritate me. Because I am tolerant. When my closest friends greet me with a friendly racial slur, it does not offend me either.

What I cannot tolerate is a house owner refusing to sell me a house because I am Indian.

[VLOCT]

@e1t1bet;

If you read my earlier post, I'd already mentioned that in my experience, US is really the only desirable country for emigration. And no, not everyone goes through bad experiences in the west from a discrimination stand point, at least, not more that what one goes through in India or anywhere else in the east. In any case, to expect to emigrate to a new country without any hickups is just unrealistic.

[Gansan]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

No I did not miss the point. All I said was that due to the diverse regions all over India, migrating from North to South and vice a versa is quite similar on the social front to migrating to a Phoren(foreign) land.
I have experienced this first hand
1. Total culture shock when I spent 4 years in Kerala
2. Similarly BLR, but the kerala experience hardened me quite a bit
3. From a social circle kind of point, I did not find the west daunting

However, from a lack of family point of view, America can be troublesome.
For example somebody having old parents in India. Unless parents move to USA(have seen this happening too for some of my friends), it does not make sense to stay out there with family.

I beg to differ, though I have never been abroad. To grin and bear a snide remark or even a slur from someone in another state of India, and from someone in a foreign land has a subtle difference. The former is (figuratively) from your own brother, while the latter is from a total stranger. The playing field is level in the former, not in the latter. Moreover such occurances in India are extremely rare.

If I have to move to Punjab tomorrow, though I may initially find the place strange, I am sure I will not be discriminated against, except may be a friendly taunt or two from a few. More importantly, whatever the average joe on the street may think, I will have as much a constitutional right to live in Punjab as he does. Which will not be the case in a foreign land and one will always be on the defensive.

[VLOCT]

Originally Posted by e1t1bet

(1) A Ghetto is not just a physical location. It is a sociological concept. If you are forced to live around people from your country, and mix exclusively with them, then you are living in a ghetto.

I have only seen this in very few locations in North America and although there is nothing wrong with it, the choice was made by the people who live there. No one forced it on them. Most Indians in North America do not live in locations surrounded by other Indians.

[e1t1bet]

Originally Posted by VLOCT

I have only seen this in very few locations in North America and although there is nothing wrong with it, the choice was made by the people who live there. No one forced it on them. Most Indians in North America do not live in locations surrounded by other Indians.

Of course. As I said, US, UK and probably a few other countries that are extremely cosmopolitan, hardly have a discrim. problem. That is the exact reason why they are cosmopolitan.

[JustCause]

VLOCT,

Maybe, but why don't you consider the psychological 'ghetto' fying that is rampant in the USA and, to some extent, AUS. You are never invited to Americans parties while even if you do invite Americans to yours, somehow, ALL of them don't turn up. If you are felicitated at work, why do only Asians join you at the cafeteria/Pub party. Indians get little regard in foreign countries and that's a bitter fact we must acknowledge.

I think this is the ultimate sacrifice one has to make if he wants to use the resources, comforts etc. & earn 100000USD annual income. I know people in India will felicitate me for earning that much in Phoren (foreign), and will consider me superior/high class, and I also know I have to keep a mum regarding the 'second class citizen' mentality.

I didn't make that sacrifice, and I am happy with my decision.

[VLOCT]

Originally Posted by JustCause

VLOCT,

Maybe, but why don't you consider the psychological 'ghetto' fying that is rampant in the USA and, to some extent, AUS. You are never invited to Americans parties while even if you do invite Americans to yours, somehow, ALL of them don't turn up. If you are felicitated at work, why do only Asians join you at the cafeteria/Pub party. Indians get little regard in foreign countries and that's a bitter fact we must acknowledge.

Like you said, if one feel mentally that he's a second class citizen here, then one needs to examine himself. I don't know a single American who's ever tried to make me feel a second class citizen.

I'm sorry to say, in my case and in the case of a lot of my Indian friends, this is simply not true. We have a regular circle of friends that are whites, blacks, middle easterners, chinese and what not and thats who we hangout with. I am only talking about North America and if Indians don't get any regard here, how are they the richest ethnic community here.

Many times I have heard Indians openly degrade Americans on how smart we are and how stupid Americans are and belittle their culture. What nonsense, is someone forcing them to be here? Oh, I get it, but the mighty dollar is fine, just the people are so 'bad'. This is not the middle east where you need permission to leave the country.

Originally Posted by JustCause

I know people in India will felicitate me for earning that much in Phoren (foreign), and will consider me superior/high class, and I also know I have to keep a mum regarding the 'second class citizen' mentality.

I couldn't care less what other people think about when I'm here or in India as long as I am behaving in a civilized manner. That's their problem, not mine.

Originally Posted by JustCause

I didn't make that sacrifice, and I am happy with my decision.

I can tell you that I don't think I've made a big sacrifice or anything like that and just like you there are many Indians who are perfectly happy here.

In any case, I wanted to present a picture of North America from the perspective of someone who has been here for a while so that 'saildrive' can make an informed decision. The gist is, at least in the US, it'll be what you make it out to be. Canada will be a lot more difficult. I've presented the case in reasonable detail, I think.

[benbsb29]

Originally Posted by e1t1bet

(2) Such biases are really at a microscopic level. A person always has the liberty to quit and join another company. Institutions do not discriminate, and that was my point.

Institutions are made by its employees, and not exclusive of them. If the employees at whatever level show discrimination to the end user suffering it, the institution seems to be the medium.

Not getting into this further, as it would be off-topic to the discussion. As another member mentioned, there are ample examples, but not concrete proof.

[e1t1bet]

Originally Posted by benbsb29

Institutions are made by its employees, and not exclusive of them. If the employees at whatever level show discrimination to the end user suffering it, the institution seems to be the medium.

Not getting into this further, as it would be off-topic to the discussion. As another member mentioned, there are ample examples, but not concrete proof.

Institutesx are made by its employees, yes. But there can be bias at the institute level, only if at the microscopic level, all biases are aligned. It isn't that all bosses favour Tamilians or people from some state specifically. Out of 100 managers, 30 might be neutral, and the remaining 70 might all favour different communities. The resultant is , thus, no bias. And if one is caught in such a situation, then, nothing stops the person from switching jobs...