[chevelle]

Originally Posted by joslicx

Well I've lived in US on both east (NJ) and west coast (Santa Barbara) and yes there were no particular problems with vegan food but point was lack of choice. For somebody settling down its better to leave veggie habits as otherwise 90% of the food is not for you which is your loss only.

I still don't get it. What lack of choice you had? Go to any joint and you have almost the same options as non-vegetarians.

Let me give you some examples - i go to burger king- my friend orders a cheeseburger, i order a veggie cheeseburger. Everything is the same except mine has veggie patty instead of meat patty.

I got to chipotle, my friend has a chicken burrito, i have veggie burrito. I go to Taco Bell, i can substitute any meat with beans instead. Everything else is the same. I go to BJs/CPK/Cheesecake Factory, instead of getting a peperoni pizza or chicken pasta, we get veggie pizza or pasta.

I am going on a Rainbow run this weekend which will have approx 100 people in an Italian restaurant. I am the only veggie lover there but they are gonna make a separate veggie pizza, ravioli and pasta for me. I just had to put in a request and they were more than happy to do that for me.

If we have a company party, there are many co-workers who are vegetarian so we always have different menus.

Why should i give up my veggie habits when i am able to manage just fine with plenty of choice outside and at home? OTOH, i have seen many of my friends and colleagues turning vegetarian or are trying to do that with a little success.

[joslicx]

Originally Posted by Gandhi

Slightly off-topic but you do know the difference between vegan and vegetarian, right?

I used to but now I use vegetarian less and less and different countries have different connotations for that. For example, in France fish is vegetarian (they are called fruit de mer or fruit of the sea). I am a vegan in french terms.

Originally Posted by chevelle

I still don't get it. What lack of choice you had? Go to any joint and you have almost the same options as non-vegetarians.

Why should i give up my veggie habits when i am able to manage just fine with plenty of choice outside and at home? OTOH, i have seen many of my friends and colleagues turning vegetarian or are trying to do that with a little success.

Lack of choice = choice between 5 types of burgers vs only one type of veggie burger.

When I was in Santa Barbara I used to go to a little danish village that falls between SFO and Santa Barbara to see a play there. Once we went to an Italian pizzeria there for dinner. They had only one veggie pizza so I ordered that. Turns out, it had huge pieces of eggplant on top and it royally sucked in taste. Had to put up with that. Thats lack of choice my friend.

Anyway point was assimilation in other culture and food is part of it. I have myself resisted turning to meat and suffer because of it everytime I travel here in Europe. Right now I am in Sweden for few days and here at McDs/BKs we at least have veggie burger but last weekend I was in Copenhagen and there at McD they dont have a veggie burger on their menu!

[chevelle]

Originally Posted by joslicx

lack of choice = choice between 5 types of burgers vs only one type of veggie burger.

When I was in Santa Barbara I used to go to a little danish village that falls between SFO and Santa Barbara to see a play there. Once we went to an Italian pizzeria there for dinner. They had only one veggie pizza so I ordered that. Turns out, it had huge pieces of eggplant on top and it royally sucked in taste. Had to put up with that. Thats lack of choice my friend.

Anyway point was assimilation in other culture and food is part of it. I have myself resisted turning to meat and suffer because of it everytime I travel here in Europe. Right now I am in Sweden for few days and here at McDs/BKs we at least have veggie burger but last weekend I was in Copenhagen and there at McD they dont have a veggie burger on their menu!

Well, when you go for a burger, the essential ingredients remain the same. the only thing that changes is patties inside. I don't know how they can make multiple veggie patty like other 5 choices. But for me that is not a problem. I like veggie patties that is served in Chili's, BK and other places.

You take an example of small village and you expect great pizza from there? You could have asked them what veggies will they include when they make it. You can always request extra toppings. Every restaurant has tomato, onions, peppers for sure. I have done that at many place and most are very happy to do that. I wonder why you didn't do that? If nothing, you could have requested a cheese pizza. I love having 4-cheese pizza if there is no other option.

Just like you had this example. Let me give you an example that took place in Sacramento. I went to a restaurant called Ella. It is very well rated and is right in the heart of the downtown Sacramento. When we went there, we requested vegetarian options. You know what, technically they didn't have any on the menu. So the manager brought chef outside to our table and asked what we would like to have. So we asked him what he could make and he brought 2 superbly made veggie dishes. It was yummy and worth well the time, money and effort. One of them was garlic, butter pasta. One of the best thing i have ever ate. We now make a better version of same at home that includes more veggies.

Another example, there is a popular chain of restaurant called Chili's. They server American food. If you look at their main menu, its all non-veg. Not a single vegetarian option. Ask them for a veggie menu and they come up with a small booklet which is a hidden option specially for vegetarians. They make special black bean patty which is yummy. Try when you are here again.

Trust me, its not easy but when you have such excellent restaurant and such friendly chefs to take care of, why would you not like it? Ever see this happened in India? I never experienced it in my 22 yrs of staying there. In India, its like, this is the menu, get something you like or get out.

I always wonder how much McD all over the world will profit if they start veggie options like the ones available in India. I am sure they will have more customers than they can expect as there are many vegetarians all over the world.

Anyway, this is going way off-topic. But the point is, its not easy but its not hard too. Just speak up wherever you go and you shall be given plenty of options.

[kumar2007]

Originally Posted by acurafan

I recently came across this thread. I guess I can throw light on some of these notions. I came to US quite young, just out of college and spent 12 years there before moving back to India. 5 years in graduate school and 7 years working after that. So I have seen US when I was barely above poverty line and when I was making decent money. By most definition by other posters we should be living an emperor size life in India as we are DINK couples earning once again decent money by Indian standards. Yet I don't think our life has really improved much. In reality if you consider the lack of civil amenities, I would say life in India is far worse.

Brilliant post. Well thought and written.

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by joslicx

I used to but now I use vegetarian less and less and different countries have different connotations for that. For example, in France fish is vegetarian (they are called fruit de mer or fruit of the sea). I am a vegan in french terms.

n their menu!

In Italy fish and sea food are called Frutti Di Mare, which means the same.

Incidentally go to the west coast of India, the Mangalore/ Northern Karnataka coast and the Maharashtra/ Goa Konkan coast and you will see that even some sub communities within the Brahman community are cool with eating fish because they have lived by the coast for generations and consider fish to be quite literally the produce of the environment and therefore acceptable to eat.

The Chinese think that egg and chicken are vegetarian...

Ultimately it boils downs to what you are comfortable with.

Food has largely been dictated by the environment, what grew indigenously and economic reality.

Remember history, when the Brits first landed up here in India in the first blush of the East India Company as traders, they used to eat tons of red meat, drink port and brandy and wander about wearing their red serge uniforms. They died like flies on account of heat stroke etc, till they learned to adapt to the local conditions, instead of trying to preserve a lifestyle that was more suited to their cold climate!

In India, we used to spice our food with locally available condiments and spices like pepper. Until chillies were introduced to us from South America by the Portuguese we had no idea such a thing existed, but soon found that chillies grew brilliantly in our climate as well!

[vb-saan]

^^On the same topic of food, just a couple of points to note (especially for vegetarians)
1) If you are ordering vegetarian food in a Thai/Vietnamese restaurant, better reconfirm if they have added fish sauce to the dish.
2) Couple of times I have saved some Indian tourists from ordering Cheese Burger in outlets like McDonalds/Burger King. The name sounds vegetarian, but the patty is normally beef.

[shankar.balan]

This is really a lovely thread and a great pleasure to read and learn from.

I ve never lived abroad but have been lucky to visit several places on business and on holiday.

I ve been lucky also, to live in some beautiful places in India when they were still completely unspoilt by the depredations of man.

Today, as a working professional of 20 plus years, I live in Bangalore and can only lament the destruction of this once-lovely city on account of sheer apathy on the part of the Corporators, Bureaucracy and Politicians.

I would consider emigration to a developed country only for the following reasons;

1. You get something back from the government for the taxes that you pay
2. Corruption and dirt is far less evident and possibly better under control
3. Quality of life and even "air" is better
4. Public systems including transport, parks, hospitals etc work well
5. General cleanliness and civic surroundings
6. Absence of visible poverty, pain and suffering
7. Beautiful natural surroundings, environment and a lot of safe, organised options available for those interested in the great outdoors.
8. Respect for human and animal life
9. Safety standards and easy rules to follow

You see, you may belong to the elite earning bracket and may live in the fanciest gated community or high security apartment block in an Indian city, where everything is manicured and controlled in terms of environment. You will pay a fancy price for that, and still pay your taxes too. However, the moment you leave that cocooned existence in that fancy gated community and apartment block to go out to a public space in the same city, you will get a real hard dose of reality just outside the gates of your cocoon!!

A lot of people may say that we should never give up hope and we must collectively do our best to improve our country etc - but the truth is that the dirt and the rot has gone so deep that our country has almost become gangrenous! How are we going to achieve cleanliness again, without a massive natural or unnatural catharsis happening?

Difficult question to answer but it is true all the same...

Even after all these years, if something outside of India interests me greatly, I may still consider emigration...

[MotoNanu]

^^+1
Exactly my views. Many people have written here that if you earn handsomely, you can live like a king in India. True, but as you said only within your walls. The system is downright hopeless and even by being a sincere citizen and paying all taxes/ voting and participating in forums and all, nothing gets changed. How long should someone wait and frankly why should one? The more educated we are; I see more complex issues popping up. These are in addition to the ever present issues of caste bias/ regionalism and many others. If at least the old problems were being sorted out, there was some hope. But there are people in our bureaucracy who would ensure these issues are never sorted out mainly due to vote bank politics!

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

I would consider emigration to a developed country only for the following reasons;

1. You get something back from the government for the taxes that you pay
2. Corruption and dirt is far less evident and possibly better under control
3. Quality of life and even "air" is better
4. Public systems including transport, parks, hospitals etc work well
5. General cleanliness and civic surroundings
6. Absence of visible poverty, pain and suffering
7. Beautiful natural surroundings, environment and a lot of safe, organised options available for those interested in the great outdoors.
8. Respect for human and animal life
9. Safety standards and easy rules to follow

Well-summarized! Pretty much the reasons which I can think have now.
I was someone who never wanted to make a move abroad. But finally decided on taking up a short-term assignment (6 months) for just one reason below:

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

3. …even "air" is better

I was having heavy problems with dust and related allergies, and my family doctor used to advise on trying to live in different cities. Tried living in Bangalore, but no improvement to the situation (probably Thrissur was better in that aspect). So when the Singapore offer came, he suggested at least try and see if the climate/environment is suitable, and that’s how I got here

In those six months, I got a hang of some of the points mentioned by Shankar, and that six months now stand at 12+ years

Another reason for me to continue here (and not to think of other locations Europe, Australia etc.) was the proximity to home. If I need to make a quick dash home or if my parents need to come here, it’s just 4 hour flight to Cochin.

[CaliAtenza]

Originally Posted by vb-san

^^On the same topic of food, just a couple of points to note (especially for vegetarians)
1) If you are ordering vegetarian food in a Thai/Vietnamese restaurant, better reconfirm if they have added fish sauce to the dish.
2) Couple of times I have saved some Indian tourists from ordering Cheese Burger in outlets like McDonalds/Burger King. The name sounds vegetarian, but the patty is normally beef.

Nowadays McDonalds and Burger King have some pretty good options for Vegetarians, McDonalds more so of course. @ Chevelle. You should try the grilled cheese sandwich from In and Out, seeing as you are in California; it will blow your mind . Its not on the regular menu, so you have to ask for it when you go in.

Originally Posted by MotoNanu

^^+1
Exactly my views. Many people have written here that if you earn handsomely, you can live like a king in India. True, but as you said only within your walls. The system is downright hopeless and even by being a sincere citizen and paying all taxes/ voting and participating in forums and all, nothing gets changed. How long should someone wait and frankly why should one? The more educated we are; I see more complex issues popping up. These are in addition to the ever present issues of caste bias/ regionalism and many others. If at least the old problems were being sorted out, there was some hope. But there are people in our bureaucracy who would ensure these issues are never sorted out mainly due to vote bank politics!

My take on this, sorta mirrors what you have said. What is the point of living like a King, when you have to eventually step out of your house and go out into the real world. Moreover, the majority of those living like Kings in India, are cheating the government and their fellow citizens in some way shape or form.

Originally Posted by chevelle

Just like you had this example. Let me give you an example that took place in Sacramento. I went to a restaurant called Ella. It is very well rated and is right in the heart of the downtown Sacramento. When we went there, we requested vegetarian options. You know what, technically they didn't have any on the menu. So the manager brought chef outside to our table and asked what we would like to have. So we asked him what he could make and he brought 2 superbly made veggie dishes. It was yummy and worth well the time, money and effort. One of them was garlic, butter pasta. One of the best thing i have ever ate. We now make a better version of same at home that includes more veggies.

America is a country built on service. We live and die by the service that we give to others. It doesnt surprise me at all that the manager brought the chef out to the table and asked you what you wanted, and on top of that prepared dishes for you guys.

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by CaliAtenza

Nowadays McDonalds and Burger King have some pretty good options for Vegetarians, McDonalds more so of course.

More than the said chains, my reference was on someone having the wrong notion of Cheese Burger being vegetarian.

In the US McD/BK may have vegetarian options, but that is not the case elsewhere.

[MotoNanu]

Originally Posted by vb-san

More than the said chains, my reference was on someone having the wrong notion of Cheese Burger being vegetarian.

In the US McD/BK may have vegetarian options, but that is not the case elsewhere.

True, i remember when I landed up in Germany in 2009, McD did not have any vegetarian burgers. Only BK had them. Later in 2012, McD started the €0.99 veg burgers due to the increasing demand. Cheese burgers are definitely a big goof up for many people. I mean for a layman, it is burger with cheese

[carboy]

Originally Posted by MotoNanu

Cheese burgers are definitely a big goof up for many people. I mean for a layman, it is burger with cheese

You mean 'Indian layman'.

Because, in most places where burgers are eaten, burger means ground meat patty with bun. So obviously, cheeseburger is the same with cheese added.

[MotoNanu]

^^ Ya, Indian layman to be precise. As you said, for others, it is normal to assume that the patty is made from grounded meat, which is substituted by mashed potato in the Indian scenario

[CaliAtenza]

Originally Posted by carboy

You mean 'Indian layman'.

Because, in most places where burgers are eaten, burger means ground meat patty with bun. So obviously, cheeseburger is the same with cheese added.

thats right, Indian Layman. Yeah i can see how that mixup could easily happen. In fact when i was younger i thought the same thing, later i realized it was beef. And chicken burgers should be called "chicken sandwiches"