[masin4]

Hi Added_flavor,

Having traveled to afghanistan at peak of the conflict and just before Indians were asked to leave,some of the suggestions that I have

1. These regions are extremely volatile if the company is providing you with complete security armed guards et all , the risk is reduced not eliminated.I had a Britisher from my company travel to Iraq and back, once at the airport he chickened out sat at the terminal and came back without meeting the client.It depends on you how much of an adrenaline junky are you.

2. These stamps do not cause issues except for some interesting conversations at the visa office.I went for my US visa after my afghan visit , had more questions about the 2 day visit than my 26 year India stay.Did get the visa though.Same experience with some other colleagues in my company

[artofzen]

Hi

The important question is where in Kurdistan are you going to ?. You are right about Kurdistan being safer than rest of Iraq. IMHO it is safer than Yemen these days. But my experience is limited to Erbil.

Outside Erbil It is still a bit lawless but nothing like Yemen, but it is safe inside the camp. I assume you are going on a project and your company will provide camp,security,transport etc.

If not, ignore all points above since I have no clue how it is like without corporate support.

[A M]

I never travelled to nor intend to but saw the area in one of the TG episodes(don't remember which season). Was in awe watching the beauty of the place. But analyzing today's situation, I would not risk. No doubts Kurdistan is relatively safer than the rest of the country but you never know which side the camel sits.
However, if its just a 1-2 day affair, you might consider.

Quoting your own signatures

Because in football, basketball, golf and cricket, you only need one ball!

[Added_flavor]

Thanks guys! I had to deny it as my family wouldn't allow me to go whatever logical explanation I tried to give!

Can't do much about it when Iraq always stays in the news for all wrong reasons!

[crazydave]

Wow, what an interesting thread. Glad to have stumbled upon it as there's a lot of good information and discussion taking place here. My wife and I are also thinking about moving out India for atleast 5-10 years, if not more. There are several reasons behind this discussion taking place between us:

1. Quality of life abroad does seem to be much better overall than it is in India. Sure, we do get paid well (on a PPP-adjusted basis) in this country in most of the professions represented on this forum, but it also comes with crazy work-hours, undue stress and the dog-eat-dog world of competing with another 1 billion people for the same jobs and opportunities. Abroad, people do their work far more efficiently than most Indians, they are out of their offices by 5-6 and no boss in his right mind will think of calling you up on a weekend unless the office is burning down! Contrast that to my wife (who works in a Fortune 500 firm in India) and gets calls on Sunday mornings about presentations and what not! In contrast, our relatives abroad do interesting vacations abroad and have interesting hobbies that they devote themselves to (whereas for most Indians, its from home to office and back, with the sole aim being the retirement corpus)
2. Cost of living in India is going up as well and is best seen in the property sector. For our parents, an apartment would have required 10 years of saving and now that same apartment would require 20-25 years worth of saving to get to (despite higher nominal income in our hands!). One option is to just get off the property treadmill and rent for life - which in my opinion does make sense given that rental yields, especially in "posh" areas in our metros are less than 2-3% per annum, in comparison to the 10-11% that we get charged for loans. However, and this is what my wife and I grapple with as well, this goes against our in-grained Indian upbringing despite all the economic sense this makes! So if we want to have the nice apartment in Golf Course Road, then we just have to make the move with the rest of the NRIs that have driven up prices there! If you can't beat them, join them I say!!
3. Access to quality services. This is a little forward-thinking since we are both DINKs but living abroad will give our future children access to better education without a doubt. Both of us went to some of the most prestigious institutes in the country, on the arts and management side (no name-dropping!) and the quality of education was mind-numbingly boring. Which might be the reason I ended up at the near-bottom of my class Look at the access to facilities that a student at an MIT or Harvard has and can any, any, institute in India come even remotely close? Forget these big guns, even the smaller universities in the UK, where we know people teaching, have better facilities and teaching methodology than our antiquated vedic mathematics oriented teaching!! Whats the point of being able to do large sums in your head, eh, if you do not have the creativity to do something new with it!!
4. And this is just on education. If we look at health and other public services, excepting the US and a small bunch of countries, one is always assured of getting access to quality and affordable services (or pegged to your income as in the Nordic states, which I'm also fine with). In this country, you pour your income taxes down the drain. Even Rajiv Gandhi admitted that only 15 rupees out of every 100 that the government spends on its schemes (which is where ostensibly most of our income tax goes), actually reaches beneficiaries. Since I work in a development-related space, I can assure you that no major difference has happened since he made this statement in the 80s! And other public services like police and welfare services, lets not even start going there. With the police in India, you never know if you are going to get a fair deal and lets not even start on the condition of most of the judicial system. The rule of law in India is subverted by the rule of the powerful. And while I'm sure this happens in the "developed" world as well, though more artfully - through lobbyists for example, at the common-man's level, you rarely feel like you're getting screwed by the system

Wow, that was a bit of a semi-rant as well but I think it captures the fact thats its frustration that is driving us off our country more than expectations of becoming fabulously rich elsewhere! Anyways, moving on, we're planning to look at Canada, Australia and the UK as options. The last is really a remote possibility given the scrapping of HSMP and no clarity on any new scheme/plan coming in place thanks the paranoia of the Tories at the helm. Will keep this thread updated as we start evaluating our options further - which means going and meeting a few consultants. Does anyone know good (meaning you'd recommend them from personal experience) consultants in NCR? Thanks!!

[Desmosedici]

Originally Posted by crazydave

Wow, what an interesting thread. Glad to have stumbled upon it as there's a lot of good information and discussion taking place here. My wife and I are also thinking about moving out India for atleast 5-10 years, if not more. There are several reasons behind this discussion taking place between us:

1. Quality of life abroad does seem to be much better overall than it is in India.
2. Cost of living in India is going up as well and is best seen in the property sector.
3. Access to quality services.
4. And this is just on education. If we look at health and other public services, excepting the US and a small bunch of countries, one is always assured of getting access to quality and affordable services

Wow, that was a bit of a semi-rant as well but I think it captures the fact thats its frustration that is driving us off our country more than expectations of becoming fabulously rich elsewhere!

Same here. Its the frustration thats building due to the quality of life. Earning more money does not necessarily mean more peace and happiness and better life. Money just lets me buy more costly stuff. If i need to take a break and spend time with family or just be my own self, i cant even think of it. Corporate world has sucked the life out of us.

My cousin works for TCS and went to the US and then now in Canada. He recently got his PR approved. He strongly recommends coming to Canada and setting up base there. He is very clear in stating that one wont get rich by earning in Canadian Dollars however the quality of life improves drastically and the government actually looks after the people. You can do a lot of things which you probably wont even think if you were here in India plus the facilities are much better.

I am considering applying for a work permit or PR. It might take even a couple of years time to get approved but if not now then never. The only issue is that since i dont have any siblings i am not sure if i could convince my parents to move if i get an opportunity. Hoping for the best.

If someone has taken the route to Canada, then would appreciate if some knowledge about the application process is shared.

Thanks.

[mjumrani]

Guys,

I am about to make a career/life changing move.
I have decided to pursue a MBA from one of the top 20 European/UK school.
I am mainly aiming for Imperial, Cambridge, Oxford, Manchester in UK and schools like INSEAD, IE, HEC, IMD in Europe.

But whichever way I would prefer UK over any country.

Having gone to EU and UK multiple times for long trips, I think I have an idea of how it might be.

I intend to not come back to India and settle there permanently.

Reason is Quality of Life and A bit of £££.

Am I assuming things correctly?

What kind of life can I expect during and after the course?

[am1m]

Originally Posted by crazydave

Quality of life abroad does seem to be much better In contrast, our relatives abroad do interesting vacations abroad and have interesting hobbies that they devote themselves to (whereas for most Indians, its from home to office and back, with the sole aim being the retirement corpus)

- Actually, a LOT of regular-job-holding people seem to have more than enough time for travel and photography, just check the Web, their travelogs and photologs are all over the place. Heck, just check the travelog section of Team-BHP!

By quality of life if you mean an easier day to day existence without many of the hassles our Indian cities have, and perhaps a populace with a higher degree of civic sense, then I would agree that quite a few countries abroad will be better.

But the travel point does not hold, as a lot of Indians based in Indian cities travel all over the World and the country these days.

Originally Posted by crazydave

Cost of living in India is going up

- I'm curious, in which country worth living in is the cost of living not going up? I've never tried to buy a house abroad, but I think buying a home in any developed country in North America, Australia, or Europe is going to be an expensive proposition too.

Originally Posted by crazydave

Access to quality services. Look at the access to facilities that a student at an MIT or Harvard has and can any, any, institute in India come even remotely close?

-Fair enough. But it's not any easier or less expensive to get into such top-tier institutions. One of the major debt burdens for young workers in the US seems to be college loans. And from what I understand, you'll need to be a citizen of that country to qualify for the various educational assistance loans from the government in the first place.

Originally Posted by Desmosedici

You can do a lot of things which you probably wont even think if you were here in India

Like what, for example? Am genuinely curious.

Originally Posted by mjumrani

I have decided to pursue a MBA from one of the top 20 European/UK school.

Am drawing from the experience of a friend of mine who returned last year from an MBA at a top 15 institute in the UK. To begin with, he wasn't able to get a job to stay back there, even though he finished in the top quarter of his class. After returning, he was pretty surprised to find that the institute didn't carry any sort of 'name recognition' with most companies he interviewed at here. Unless it's an Oxford, a Cambridge, or an INSEAD, I think that'll be the case with most UK/European MBA universities; the American universities are just much better known. He did get a good job finally, but there were times when he was on the verge of despair during the process.

[ajmat]

Originally Posted by am1m

-
Am drawing from the experience of a friend of mine who returned last year from an MBA at a top 15 institute in the UK. To begin with, he wasn't able to get a job to stay back there, even though he finished in the top quarter of his class. After returning, he was pretty surprised to find that the institute didn't carry any sort of 'name recognition' with most companies he interviewed at here. Unless it's an Oxford, a Cambridge, or an INSEAD, I think that'll be the case with most UK/European MBA universities; the American universities are just much better known. He did get a good job finally, but there were times when he was on the verge of despair during the process.

I can vouch for that, I passed out of what was one of UK's top 10 business schools. Apart from LBS or MBS, nothing else cuts it out here

[crazydave]

Originally Posted by am1m

- Actually, a LOT of regular-job-holding people seem to have more than enough time for travel and photography, just check the Web, their travelogs and photologs are all over the place. Heck, just check the travelog section of Team-BHP!

I dont want to get into a point-by-point rebuttal because thats not the purpose of the thread, but the point I was trying to make is that abroad, what you've pointed out is more the norm rather than the exception. Kudos to the regular job-holding TBHPians who do these things here - however, I'd still maintain that they are the exception in India, rather than the norm.

There is dog-eat-dog competition in India that makes us very career-focused to the exclusion of all else - 2-week travelogues notwithstanding. One of my life's ambitions is to climb a 8000+-peak. Thats easily 6-12 months of preparation, that is going to be unpaid leave. At the back of my mind is always the fear of whether I'm going to come back to a job at all!!

In contrast, my Swiss boss, took a sabbatical and went off on a 1-year MTB expedition from Cairo to Cape Town and then returned to his job and all his benefits (this is just one example btw. I have many other examples from European colleagues mainly). Even if his job wasn't there by some long shot, the governments there provide a soft cushion to fall on if you are unemployed (what soft cushion is there if you are unemployed in India or shudder, unemployed and fall sick. I can't imagine and I just went through a major illness in the family and the impact that had!!)

Originally Posted by am1m

By quality of life if you mean an easier day to day existence without many of the hassles our Indian cities have, and perhaps a populace with a higher degree of civic sense, then I would agree that quite a few countries abroad will be better.

Yes, I meant this as well. I disagree that there are few, there are many in the developed world. Of course, the level of comfort and openness regarding language and culture will also dictate how easier an individual's day-to-day existence will turn out in the end

Originally Posted by am1m

But the travel point does not hold, as a lot of Indians based in Indian cities travel all over the World and the country these days.

Again, sorry for the rebuttal, but on a pure cost-to-cost basis, its still more affordable doing foreign travel when you are working abroad than when you are working in India (unless you are lucky!)

Originally Posted by am1m

- I'm curious, in which country worth living in is the cost of living not going up? I've never tried to buy a house abroad, but I think buying a home in any developed country in North America, Australia, or Europe is going to be an expensive proposition too

It is much cheaper on a PPP basis. Simple factors - far greater land availability, lower population densities (in some cases, decreasing due to aging of population and lower fertility rates), relatively lower amounts of speculation, much more mature and deep rental markets (ensuring that there is no deadstock that is piling up and driving up prices - seen the number of unoccupied apartments in Gurgaon/Chennai/Bangalore/other NRI-hubs?) and I'm sure many more.

Originally Posted by am1m

-Fair enough. But it's not any easier or less expensive to get into such top-tier institutions. One of the major debt burdens for young workers in the US seems to be college loans. And from what I understand, you'll need to be a citizen of that country to qualify for the various educational assistance loans from the government in the first place.

I'm sorry I used such an example. Take a look at the Times Higher Education Supplement's ranking of Top 100 universities in the world. A quick glance will show that there are 60-70 American universities there (not a single Indian one!!). So even if you dont get into a Harvard/MIT, you still have so many many options. In India, if you dont get into an IIT/IIM, heaven help you regarding the quality of education you'd get elsewhere (and I write this as a graduate of a Top-10 non-IIM MBA program!!) You're right about citizenship being necessary for college loans though, thats why this is an emigration thread after all

[S_U_N]

Originally Posted by Binzone

Am being asked to work in Sydney for about am year or two on work visa (intra company transfer).
What is the cost of living for a family of three (2 adults + 2 year old kid) in Sydney to have a decent lifestyle, without bring too stingy?

I suppose spouse can work on dependent visa, but with a 2 year old at home, am not sure if it will be possible, and if part time work-from-home options are available.

Perhaps you would have made up your mind on the next steps by now.
Since this is a long term transfer, it is a good idea to take this offer from a career perspective (and not driven by monetory perspective).
Also, since your kid is just 2, by the time you return in India, he would be in the right age to start pre-school - LKG). So no complications there as well.

I would say, don't worry about the money making/ saving aspect. Go ahead and enrich your career path.
All the best!

[Desmosedici]

Originally Posted by am1m

-

Like what, for example? Am genuinely curious.

Crazydave has already put forth a lot of points which i am in sync with. As usual there will be pros and cons to each and every action or thought however its upto the individual to decide whats better for him/her. I do not have any personal idea or experience on living abroad and hence the post in this thread to know more. Thanks.

[clevermax]

I would never ever think about migrating to a cold winter country. Life wil be so depressing over there. (Yes, I had lived in cold winter countries long enough to realize this) Even if climatic conditions are in favour, you are leaving behind your friends, relatives and the country in which you were born and brought up. It is not my patriotism speaking but leaving behind these and starting from scratch is not worth it, in my optinion.

The decision to migrate - I think it heavily depends on the social conditions under which one is brought up here.

[mjumrani]

Originally Posted by ajmat

I can vouch for that, I passed out of what was one of UK's top 10 business schools. Apart from LBS or MBS, nothing else cuts it out here

Originally Posted by am1m

Am drawing from the experience of a friend of mine who returned last year from an MBA at a top 15 institute in the UK. To begin with, he wasn't able to get a job to stay back there, even though he finished in the top quarter of his class. After returning, he was pretty surprised to find that the institute didn't carry any sort of 'name recognition' with most companies he interviewed at here. Unless it's an Oxford, a Cambridge, or an INSEAD, I think that'll be the case with most UK/European MBA universities; the American universities are just much better known. He did get a good job finally, but there were times when he was on the verge of despair during the process.

How long ago was this?

I did not mean top 15 in UK. I meant the top 15 which fall in UK and Europe combined.
Which means I would never go below Manchester Business School.
Imperial is ranked higher than MBS.

I would live to go to LBS but its fees is too high.
£60000 is no joke :(

As for Europe the schools I mention are my targets, and they are in the top 20 worldwide.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by mjumrani

How long ago was this?

Well, he got back mid-2012, I think he completed his MBA end-2011 (not sure about the exact month). The school was Durham Business School, UK.

Not sure how it's ranked globally, but I understand it's a top school in the UK. To be frank, I had not heard of it either, till he got his admit.

I'm sure you know what you're doing, just thought I'd pen down this chap's experiences, as he was quite taken aback by them at the time.