[hdus001]

Originally Posted by neon115

reminded me how painful it is to deal with any government agency in India

I'm at the moment trying to get back the EPF amount from when I worked in India during 2011-2013. Have been going thru the process for 3+ years now, with very little progress.

Had quite a few similar experiences, for eg:
- getting Dad's lost passport replaced where the passport was lost by a government agency and took years to resolve (he had surrendered his original passport for a diplomatic one and decades later when he retired they misplaced the original one but would provide paperwork saying it was lost)
- a similar issue selling an interstate RD350 where the RTO misplaced the documents when they moved office locations, took over a year to resolve, that too with the buyer exerting influence and paying bribes

It's almost like they find creative ways of making people's lives difficult.

[vishnurp99]

I just had a slightly contrarian thought on emigration.

As we go forward, the borders are going to become less & less relevant for Indians. The western world at large suffers from a demographic crisis & medical care crisis. Indians generally are the most favored immigrants because of their work ethic, tolerance and patience. Most Indians are already used to western values & culture and they speak English well and have the ability to pick up more languages because of their innate multilingual nature. Indians are also 1/5 th of the world today and 1/4th of the population under 30.

Even today, i see friends in Europe travelling back to India on a fairly regular cadence - two or more times an year. Some friends travel back every quarter because they are able to link the travel plans to work. The extreme case is a friend who travels back every 8 weeks because his mother is alone in TVM. So travel back & forth is not a challenge at all. More & more cities in India are becoming well-connected to global travel networks. I also see more & more Indians who are confident today about where they are coming from and see that as a competitive advantage.

Because of the virtual professional networks & great data usage, Indians are just going to become more & more international.

I guess I see a world where aspirational & confident indians will live across multiple countries and travel at will to make the best of opportunities and at the same time stay close to their parents & extended families in India.

[avisidhu]

Originally Posted by vishnurp99

.............
Indians generally are the most favored immigrants because of their work ethic, tolerance and patience. Most Indians are already used to western values & culture and they speak English well and have the ability to pick up more languages because of their innate multilingual nature.
....

Not sure if you are aware, but the mood in the wester hemisphere at the moment (specially US/Canada) is not only anti Immigrant, but specifically targeted towards Indians.

The best of our lot went to US in the past and created a huge cache of positive association, but I doubt if work ethic, tolerance and patience are associated with the Indian (or south Asian) community anymore. Specially in Canada, unchecked immigration and student/visitor/temporary visas have caused a huge backlash. Now with the economy stagnating, a narrative has gained hold that immigrants are to blame and because Indians have been the major beneficiaries, you can connect the dots.

Hate to say this, but if this sentiment continues it will start impacting our ability to land good opportunities.

[alpha1]

To all those contemplating or in path of immigrating to foreign lands: what is it that you really hate about India that made you decide to leave?

I am genuinely curious, because I hear the usual stuff like:

• corruption: yes, it is there, but how many of us people face this in their regular daily lives? Perhaps once in 10 years for passport, driving license, once in 5 years for LPG connection?
• quality of life: as if most Indian people abroad have very great social lives. Agreed there could be more avenues for leisure activities because goras are supposedly more active and Indians are more workaholic having no extra-curricular interests & hobbies; but since this is in our DNA, is it going to change when we move abroad?
• healthcare & medical: debatable point when most of the people from abroad are coming to India for health tourism
• income: don't even get me started, this point makes sense only if you are coming back to India with stashed suitcases of ben franklins that will make you super rich back here. If you are staying there then your expenses will be higher by same the proportions. Besides most of the elite metro yuppies in India are having household income >50 lakhs per annum.
• children's education: I think what they intend to mean is that due to low competition and wider choice of professions earning decent money the children's life and transition to adulthood is easier, Yeah OK great point this one

I've had many debates with my friends (many school and college mates went for MS/PhD and never came back) and acquaintance circle (MBA folks, MNC colleagues) - most of them would be earning big in India if they didn't move abroad: not even one of them said that they love the particular foreign country and its culture (most of them were never into English literary activities, movies, music, trivia, norms), I don't know what kind of compromised personal lives they are living!

[roy_libran]

Originally Posted by alpha1

To all those contemplating or in path of immigrating to foreign lands: what is it that you really hate about India that made you decide to leave?

One should not need to HATE, to be able to contemplate a move to a place that offers something that they don't see the prospect for here. Everyone's assessment and psychology is different, so why debate?

[Nav-i-gator]

Originally Posted by alpha1

To all those contemplating or in path of immigrating to foreign lands: what is it that you really hate about India that made you decide to leave?

First of all, abroad not only means US, EU, UK, Canada, Australia. There are a host of other countries where Indians are working, me being one of them. I am currently working in Vietnam, the country that despite of the much smaller size, economy and population, is one of the most sought after under "China+1" Strategy. It is not much different than India in many ways - the family culture is similar, there are touches on Buddhism too, is cheap relatively (although not as cheap as India for COL), you can get all amenities like cheap domestic help (again, relatively. Much higher than in India, but quite cheap as compared to western countries), there is corruption but it is not in-your-face, people are generally happy, courteous, Private medical facilities are easily available and equally costly, Taxes are similar, disposable income is rising very fast, and there is massive infrastructure transformation going on here too.

What is better than India? Practically everything! just take anything from India, improve it, clean it, make it user-friendly/tourist-friendly.
Safety - Prime importance and the biggest issue in India. Seems like Vietnam is driven by women, strong, independent and safe. Businesses like liquor distribution, real estate, VISA services, where you will rarely find women in India, are largely run by Women. And you can find women any time of the day and late nights, riding alone through the streets, in clothes that would 100% attract lewd looks and comments in India, and no one gives a second look.
Driving sense - It's no Singapore, far from it. But driving is generally defensive and people do not drive their car the other side when there is traffic ahead of them. 2 wheelers dominate the road (which are ridden same as in India, but basic respect for pedestrians is there).

Road infra and quality - where there are roads, they are butter smooth. It rains 9 out of 12 months in a year, but no potholes appear. There is flooding in some streets if it rains heavily, but water clears up in 2 hours. And there is no clogging of drains, no silt.

Weather - Pleasant throughout the year, and clean. IF AQI goes past 60, schools do not let children play outside.

I can go on and on, but in summary - maybe because of lesser population, there is lesser strain on limited resources/opportunities. That translates into less stressful life, less frustrated and hot-headed people, less aggression on road and otherwise, less crimes. And it's just 4.5 hours flight away from Delhi.

There are multiple reasons why people who never even contemplated going out of India, don't want to come back once they have lived outside.

[sreerknair]

Originally Posted by alpha1

To all those contemplating or in path of immigrating to foreign lands: what is it that you really hate about India that made you decide to leave?

[Off-topic] - to me none of these.

It is mainly the lack of civic sense among "Indians in India" (whole different when same folks are overseas) and the cut throat competition for everything - starting from fresh air, to some space in playground for my kid, to drive my car without scratches, to a decent job that earns well.

Once one enjoy these in a foreign country, and these are things one value more in life, it is hard to ignore the chaos while in India.

As everything in life - it is just a matter of priorities and choices one has to make and it is always right as long as one is convinced it is !!!

[am1m]

Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator

I am currently working in Vietnam...

Nice to hear some experiences from someone outside the US/UK/Aus/EU. How is the language situation? Do you need to be fluent in Vietnamese? Or is that not an issue in a professional setting? What is the job scene in Vietnam like for expats?

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by alpha1

To all those contemplating or in path of immigrating to foreign lands: what is it that you really hate about India that made you decide to leave?

Hate is a very strong word. Is hate the main factor that makes one leave a place and move to new location/country? There are virtues like courage, curiosity, opportunities, etc. that influence the decision. I moved from a small town in Kerala to Bangalore and then to Singapore, not because I hated Kerala, but due to a mix of all those reasons I mentioned. I am sure many of us had have the same set of reasons when the decision was made.

Originally Posted by alpha1

quality of life: as if most Indian people abroad have very great social lives. Agreed there could be more avenues for leisure activities because goras are supposedly more active and Indians are more workaholic having no extra-curricular interests & hobbies; but since this is in our DNA, is it going to change when we move abroad?

The DNA probably has changed over the years, for Indians and also for other nationals. Being a workaholic is not an Indian-exclusive trait, and enjoying life or pursuing interests & hobbies are not just a western trait. The lines are very blur or almost non-existent.

[PreludeSH]

Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator

First of all, abroad not only means US, EU, UK, Canada, Australia. There are a host of other countries where Indians are working, me being one of them. I am currently working in Vietnam,.

Good to hear. I am always thinking about how it would be moving to Thailand, but dont think I will ever. As you said things are better although everything looks and feels like India culturally, values etc. You even get all kinds of cars which is not the case in India

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by alpha1

To all those contemplating or in path of immigrating to foreign lands: what is it that you really hate about India that made you decide to leave?

Thank you for your candid question. Permit me to offer a different and more blunt perspective here.

From what I observed with my batch mates and our relatives the true motivators are different from what they say later on were the motivators. And this applies equally to folks who did not migrate.

Hate is a negative push factor. I suppose immigration is always driven by pull factors and hate does not play much of a role.

So here goes - the true motivators are the lure of more money, a superior standard of living, the status of saying to folks back home that you live in America or Canada etc. Once you have migrated factors such as superior civic sense, superior municipal services, lower corruption, better air quality, greater opportunities become the stated reason in your mind and to some extent in reality too.

Similarly those of us who don't migrate, like me, tell ourselves in our minds {and to those we are boring with our rambling} factors such as desh bhakti, nationalism, build the nation, looking after the parents, social net work etc. In my case these were post facto justifications. To be brutally honest I did not migrate because at least in my case as a self-employed my income in actual purchasing capacity would have not changed much but my status as an important mongrel on my street would have fallen. In India, brutally speaking, I am {like many other Team BHPians} upper caste, male, privileged chap and a part of the top layer of social, financial and professional circles thanks to the leg up my parents provided me, thanks to my education and thanks to my batchmates who did well for themselves. I valued this position of big frog in a small pond and the ability as a mongrel to strut on my street and bark when I wish. In a Western country I would be a nobody.

We all seek some combination of power, position and paisa though in our own minds we camouflage it under air quality and serving our parents.

India is a harsh environment. To succeed here in the fullest sense you need to be in the top 0.2% or even finer. Some one at the 75th percentile, which is still very good, struggles because of competition, obstacles, sluggish way in which things work here and unfair exercise of influence. For that 75th percentile person moving to the West is a better option.

One point I never tire of making is to keep an eye on the macro picture. If you are 25 years today migrate after evaluating where India vs West comparison will be in 2054 and 2064 when you will be, like me, retired and doling out unwanted advice like this post.

[kiku007]

I can understand the value of this,

• I'm thinking of migrating. Please share your experience on the pros and cons of migration to help me make a decision.

but not this,

• I think my life is better than my friends lives, but they don't agree with me when I argue with them. Please give me pointers so I can win the debate.

[Nav-i-gator]

Originally Posted by am1m

Nice to hear some experiences from someone outside the US/UK/Aus/EU. How is the language situation? Do you need to be fluent in Vietnamese? Or is that not an issue in a professional setting? What is the job scene in Vietnam like for expats?

Language is an issue, but after living here for more than 2 years now, I feel it's more fun than being a nuisance. Google translate is your friend, and people show a lot of patience and efforts to understand you, help you and converse with you. Over time it is better if you can pick up basic Vietnamese language or at least some key words, but we are managing pretty well without that. People here are generally very friendly to foreigners and it really pays to forget about how being assertive is essential if you want to get anything done in India. Here, polite and friendly is the way to go.
Regarding job scene, it's not easy to get a job here as Govt want to keep the jobs to locals, it's easy to either get a transfer from your current employer, or start a business there. Most of the foreigners are here through these routes. Locals seem to have a particular liking to white people here as well, just like India. And westerners absolutely love it here, they can afford a lavish lifestyle, it's a tourism paradise, the weather is pleasant and you have all sorts of food, beverages, party scenes, expat hangouts, everything (at least in Ho Chi Minh City where we are, which is the Financial hub of Vietnam A La Mumbai).

Originally Posted by PreludeSH

Good to hear. I am always thinking about how it would be moving to Thailand, but dont think I will ever. As you said things are better although everything looks and feels like India culturally, values etc. You even get all kinds of cars which is not the case in India

Thailand is not so easy for Indian Expats. You are fine in corporate settings and people are very friendly there too, but out on the streets, there is a noticeable dislike for Indians due to, you know the kind of tourists that flock to there, kind of things they do and the kind of image they project.

You would be surprised to see the cars scene in Vietnam (again HCMC, which is much more modern and cosmopolitan city than rest of Vietnam). The number of big, luxury and sports cars that I see here everyday is crazy!

[rohitoasis]

Sir,

Thanks for putting this in words.
This below part can be used not just in context of immigration, but also on the career advise threads.
At the cost of going OT, there are many people in middle management who loathe their work environment, but enjoy the top dog status in their existing organisation and continue in their steady state and refuse to move away. I think i include in that part of pie chart on both the subjects of immigration and career. My way of justifying to stay in the country and in my existing organisation echoes this thought process.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Similarly those of us who don't migrate, like me, tell ourselves in our minds {and to those we are boring with our rambling} factors such as desh bhakti, nationalism, build the nation, looking after the parents, social net work etc. In my case these were post facto justifications. To be brutally honest I did not migrate because at least in my case as a self-employed my income in actual purchasing capacity would have not changed much but my status as an important mongrel on my street would have fallen. In India, brutally speaking, I am {like many other Team BHPians} upper caste, male, privileged chap and a part of the top layer of social, financial and professional circles thanks to the leg up my parents provided me, thanks to my education and thanks to my batchmates who did well for themselves. I valued this position of big frog in a small pond and the ability as a mongrel to strut on my street and bark when I wish. In a Western country I would be a nobody.

[Mystic]

Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator

Language is an issue, but after living here for more than 2 years now, I feel it's more fun than being a nuisance.

Glad to see a post on life in Vietnam. I also had an opportunity to work for a couple of months in Hanoi on an IT project. I loved Vietnam and somehow as an Indian, I feel at home there. May be because of a similar kind of a culture at the roots. Of course, I never faced language problem as all my users were well educated abroad and I stay in Marriott where Trump also stayed on his official visit. Food is great which can cater to the rich as well as poor. All coexist in Hanoi just like in our Bombay.

I was watching a movie on Mohammad Ali recently and surprised on the reasons on why he refused to go to Vietnam in those days to fight for USA as part of mandatory service. I liked his argument which he finally won in Supreme Court . My understanding as per movie: As an African American, I am still fighting for my rights against America and so refuse to fight in Vietnam for America as Vietnam is not my enemy.