[mack.mehul]

I agree. There are many problems in our country like pollution, corruption, crime, etc. but every country whether in EU or America has its advantages & disadvantages. Things are slowly improving in our country, though it will take time. In terms of getting a good job, we now have a good number of companies and many cities where you can find a good job. On the housing front as well, things are not bad in our country. As per one's capacity to spend, you can manage to find a house. And then affording human labor for getting menial jobs done, its all available in our country. For example, here, random upper middle class families keep 1-2 drivers, however affording a driver/chauffer in western countries seems completely impossible.

[DevendraG]

I’ve been a fence sitter on moving abroad for a while now and the biggest reasons is the wokeness that almost all western countries bring to the table. We as adults and our backgrounds are well equipped to handle this but I’m not very sure if my child would be equally strong. And work takes up a good part of your day and the implications my child would have to face without full family support is the thought I dread.

[GandalfTheGrey]

Originally Posted by Cooltronics

...reflect back and think about your decision taken?
There is no right or wrong but shades of grey. You get some you loose some.
..
Questions you should ask yourself
1) Can I relocate and settle down my parents in Netherlands? Would they like it or not?
2) If not, what should I prefer? kids (and their safety) or parents (and their final years)

Good Luck ! I wish life was easier

Thank you very much for your reply. I've thought about these points earlier;

1)It's close to impossible for me to relocate/settle down my parents here in Netherlands. Even if I manage to do so, they won't be comfortable for many reasons and it's even unfair on my part to displace them from their comfort zone in their final years.

2) This may sound strange and even funny to some people from western culture, I don't think I can live with regret of not being there with my parents during their final years. Thankfully my parents and in laws are hale and healthy(touchwood), so they can manage at least 10 years on their own before our attention would be needed.

I too wish sometimes choices were simpler where both parties can win. But such tricky times help one reconsider priorities in life.

Originally Posted by turbowhistle

As someone who has been in Germany for almost 6 years and in a very similar position like you, here are my 2 cents with a background first...

However, we have decided to move back to India in a certain timeframe (before the kiddo starts the school) and here are my reasoning

Thank you very much for your reply. Wow, I think we are exactly travelling on the same boat. One of those rare occasions in which all your points exactly match my thought process and situation. Your decision is the exact decision that my wife and I reached after discussion over the past couple of weeks. In fact, people who know us personally and settled in EU for good also suggested the same decision. I'm a people's person and I am extremely fortunate to have grown up among my cousins and grandparents, and I think there's no replacement for that. Fortunately we have close to 5-6 years before we reach the point of moving back home. By then I'm sure things will improve a lot in India, so we have now decided to make full use of the opportunities we have; enrich ourselves with international professional experience, travel as much as we can while we're still here, and learn the value systems here, and finally come back to India as better persons/parents.

That being said, I know I'll miss the Netherlands for sure while I leave as I love it, irrespective of whether the country loves me. People mock me as I'm one of those who learn Dutch not to get a passport, but just for the love of it. I engage in some sort of volunteering work to give back something to the society and that's the love for the Netherlands. So let me make some great memories here while I still can, so that there are some nice stories/memories to tell to my kids and grand kids.

I once again thank each and every member for the valuable comments, and I'm humbled by the camaraderie there is on the forum; people who I haven't met in person taking time to pen down detailed thoughts and opinions to people openly sharing their own personal experiences and learnings. Never change t-bhp!

Cheers!

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by GandalfTheGrey

2) This may sound strange and even funny to some people from western culture, I don't think I can live with regret of not being there with my parents during their final years.

Fully understand and appreciate this sentiment. I returned back in 2004 as my parents crossed into 70s, and I was around in the last decades of both my parents.

[s2K_scorpioN]

What is your motivation to immigrate?

1. Financial Gains - I think India today can cater to anyones financial aspirations. The money is here, just a lot of people competing for it. My take, you lose more 'wealth' trying to pursue financial gains abroad.

2. Quality of living - Western countries definitely do have more natural resources, developed economies, and an affordable higher standard of living. Flip side? Scarce sense of belonging, smaller social circle, routine life centered around work, ... no family.

3. Alienation from origin country - I believe this to be a state of mind. A foreign country can help you change your mind, with the unique perspective it provides in one way or the other. In which case, one should go and experience for themselves. Then take the call.

Of course, there are exceptions. If you're expanding your business abroad, you don't have a choice. If you need medical care that your country cannot provide, again, you don't have a choice. If you want the education that your country cannot provide, once again, you don't have a choice. And so on..

For those with kids, I am of the opinion that during their formative years, growing up in their motherland will provide them the anchor in life to be aware of their identity during the trend of globalisation. This becomes important down the line in shaping their values system.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by DevendraG

I’ve been a fence sitter on moving abroad for a while now and the biggest reasons is the wokeness that almost all western countries bring to the table. ...

There is more to woke than you may be reading in right-wing sources. Do remember that the word itself comes from the fight against racial discrimination. Jobs, housing, brown people having "Pakkies go home" daubed on their walls. And worse. When you travel to Europe, you are benefiting from that history of people who went before you, and from the fight that still goes on. (Yes, I am a white Brit. But you can see this from recent news of shameful events in my mother country. )

In a nutshell: Certain areas of what has become called woke may have gone crazy, but don't forget that it is about so much more.

Having said all that, I don't think I would like to work in some sectors that seem to be governed by tick-list correctness.

(I don't think that this is political. There are racist/sexist/etc folk of all kinds)

[selfdrive]

Originally Posted by GandalfTheGrey

This may sound strange and even funny to some people from western culture, I don't think I can live with regret of not being there with my parents during their final years. Thankfully my parents and in laws are hale and healthy(touchwood), so they can manage at least 10 years on their own before our attention would be needed.

As a late entrant to this conversation, I will also add my opinions, which of course are subjective.
Some of these may or may not be applicable to you

A quick disclaimer: I have tried this emigration/ returning bit a couple of times but still on the see saw wondering where to get down.
Family on my side that I grew up with have already moved on/ out of India, so I don't have many ties to bring me back other than friends. I am able to live alone and am probably happier that way. My wife though has always been in a tight knit family setup and misses that badly when she has to live out of India. We tried already in a few different countries over the last 20 years.

Situations in countries also evolve a lot. For example, security/ quality of life in England/ France/ Germany/ Belgium of today is very different than they were in 2000s/2010s. The demographic has changed a lot and I don't think I would want to live in any of these countries now. At one stage, I was considering moving to US/ Canada, but now thank our lucky stars we did not. I am not demeaning any of these countries, but they do not any longer hold the same attraction/ aspirational value that they did during my younger years, and I know I would surely not be happy there now.

The decision we took to return to India in 2010s was more to be able to spend quality time with family. We were able to make fantastic memories for wider family events like births, naming ceremonies, weddings, festivals, home poojas, celebrations, road trips, etc and even help each other out in health related topics. Any amount of money that we would have earned elsewhere would not compensate for these life experiences. While I understand that elders at home would be self sufficient, I think it is important to also be with them now. Today. This month/ year. Enjoy the present with them, than wait to move back only when they really need our presence due to health issues.

And this is coming from quite an asocial person
Hypocrisy included because while I would like to cancel emigration plans and return to India, I am dreading this in ways I cannot express. This probably compares with a rich person saying money is not important!

Keep in mind, we take decisions based on known information, but hindsight can prove the same decisions to be masterstrokes or short sightedness. No use beating ourselves over that either.

Best wishes to you for taking a decision as a family, there is no right or wrong here really.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Mr.Ogre

Thank you for your kind words. In terms of finance and career goals, I think India has good opportunities too.
.

I'm sure there is. However, all research into emigration since the second world war suggest that those who emigrate primarily for financial and career opportunities have a much more difficult time than those who emigrate for overall quality of life aspects. The latter are much more likely to adopt their chosen country as home country and settle down, integrate and remain permanently than those pursuing financial and career opportunities.

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong for choosing to emmigrate for financial gains. But whether you're main purpose in life is pursuing career and financial gains in your own home country or the country you emigrate to, it is a very focussed affair. It means you tend to loose out on many other aspect that might make life interesting and worthwhile.

Very few people, on their deathbed, will tell you they wished they had managed to further their career, made more money. Almost all people at their end of their life look at the quality of their life, not their career.

It’s best, my opinion, to adopt that point of view very early on in life!

I appreciate this point of view is a bit elite. Because it is important to have sufficient financial means to lead a comfortable life. But then, I might be wrong, most of our members, certainly those who have emigrated or are contemplating it, are likely to be “elite” anyway. “Elite” very much in the eye of the beholder.

I am just going by the number of posts on this thread about career and financial prospects versus the number of posts that talk about quality of life on this thread.

It’s refreshing to see somebody who chooses on very different factors and appears to be very comfortable and happy about it. Without mentioning financials and career!

Kudos to you.

Jeroen

[BraveArc]

As many of the others have said above, this is a situation where each and every person has a different experience, reason and situation. I'll share my observations and experiences.

My entire professional life has been outside India. I lived in Kuwait from 2013 to 2022, and moved to Sydney, Australia to do my MBA and working here since. Had three reasons to do it.
1. The Kuwait market had slowed down drastically from 2015 and as a result growth had become nonexistent.
2. Got married in Dec 2021, my wife (Also an NRI) had lived in Bangkok and couldn't live in a place as restricted as Kuwait.
3. Australia had a relatively easy entry path. (It's still not difficult, just not as easy)

Living in Kuwait, I used to travel to Chennai 6-7 times a year. A journey from doorstep to doorstep took about 8 hours. It's short enough that I have done weekend trips a few times and on average most trips were 6-7 days. This helped me see and spend time with family and friends a lot and I never felt away.
Now, I could never do that as the shortest journey from doorstep to doorstep is around 17 hours and costs thrice as much. So, flying home happens once a year. I stay for a month but every trip I can see a difference in the parents. Age is catching up and it's an uneasy feeling. Even friends lives are changing so much that I have to adjust my expectations of the trip. By the time I have relaxed, I'm flying back.

Luckily, in terms of friends, both places have been very good for me. I am a social person and make plans which helps build that friends circle quite easily. Organised quite a few TBhp meets in Sydney to build that car circle.
I did a bit of schooling in Kuwait so when I went there after college, I had friends who were also moving around the same time. In Sydney, since I moved to do my MBA, again friends have been easy to make. So, there is no question of boredom or loneliness. We have things to do almost every other day and as a result time flies. But for many of the others, that doesn't come easy. There was a report that Sydney is the second hardest place on Earth to make friends and I don't doubt it. Moving here with a PR means unless there is someone already here who is somewhat close things are going to be quiet. To give an example, my wife has distant cousins here. We meet them once in six months. Tons of laughs and a properly good time but they have childhood friends they have grown up with here in Sydney and they meet up more often the way we meet up with our friends more often.

In terms of career, my wife and I have had the polar opposite in terms of jobs. She has had a significantly easier time than I have. I got a student visa and she was my dependent. That gave her full working rights. With prior experience in a MNC, she got offers before we even moved. I was doing a career change and Australia is probably the worst country to do that in. Hence, I am basically restarting my career from scratch but I am able to leverage the previous experience and am confident growth is not far away.
Pretty much all my immigrant MBA classmates who moved here with plans to change career or industry did not do that. They took similar roles to their previous ones.

Healthwise, things are different for sure, some good and some bad.
Environment is cleaner and the weather is significanly more comfortable year round. Even Europeans are immigrating to Australia citing weather.
Food is unhealthy on the other hand. Selling with a tag "No added hormones" doesn't mean the decades of adding hormones and other chemicals can be undone (Australian KFC chicken wings are the same size as Indian KFC chicken legs). I am eating more bland and boring food than ever before yet I am fatter and cholesterol is higher.
Medical services are slow, unless it's an emergency, people have to wait. Hairline fractures, extended period of sickness, horrible toothache, etc doesn't matter. Wait a few months before your turn. India and Kuwait on the other hand, immediate access to a doctor.
Quality of life is nicer for sure. It is a free country and that shows. You don't need to be well off to enjoy life. Family time is given importance and laws ensure companies can't force you to work longer without compensation. People are nicer as well irrespective of status and race. They do their own thing and process if followed. In India, if you're driving a Mercedes, and a guy on a bike or in a "lesser" car runs into you, crowds will gather and automatically just blame you. There is this inherent jealousy and want to put down others who have it better. Only way to overcome it is with outright evidence or influence. The former still means struggle and the latter means totally chill. None of that here. Things are changing back home but still quite a way to go. [Corruption is definitely present here as well. Anyone who says you can't bribe is wrong, it is just much more expensive.]

Long term, my wife and I will leave Sydney. Ideally to go and live in Chennai or at least in the Middle-East where frequent travel to Chennai is possible. I want to be able to spend as much time with family as possible. One thing is for sure, death does not give warnings. I have seen it happen more than I would like. Family members were totally fine in the morning and were gone before sunset. I don't want to be going to spend time during their last moments. I want to be there for the good times. That's where the memories are. Once that's gone, the "what if" thought should not be there because if it is, it will be there till my time comes.
If I could, I would leave and go back today but career choices means I would not be able to lead the quality of life I want and that is the only thing stopping me.

[Mr.Ogre]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

It’s refreshing to see somebody who chooses on very different factors and appears to be very comfortable and happy about it. Without mentioning financials and career!

Kudos to you.

Jeroen

Thanks so much for your appreciation and for the wise words. This is why I emphasized on quality of life because I was in the system for almost 35 years before I decided it was not for me.

I find it difficult to be a mute spectator and accept things the way they are. I am also glad that my wife shared similar view point, and now my wife and daughter appreciate the move.

Definitely no country is perfect, but we find Australia to be the best solution for us. We waited this long for our citizenship to be very sure if this is exactly what we wanted.

I would also like to highlight that having moved here we haven't lost touch with our tradition. Nor did our daughter. She is 12 now and even though she speaks like other kids her age here, we make sure that she talks with us and her grandparents in Hindi and our native language. We also organise Shri Ganesh Pooja every year and Shri Satyanarayan Pooja few times in a year. And our daughter can and does recite a few shlokas every day.

We did work towards making new friends and building our social circle, and I am glad to say both Indian and non-Indian friends do come for the Pooja's we organise. And we do get together quite a lot during special occasions and festivals.

One thing I find unique about Australia is that you mostly meet people from different countries and culture along with Australians. You never have to struggle to start a conversation and build a rapport, and I am not even an extrovert person. And for the most part they are nice.

I am also part of a few motorcycle groups and do undertake overnight road trips few times a year. And so far my experience has been very positive. I even crashed on my first overnight trip 500 kilometers from home and I was pleasantly surprised by the help and support I got from the locals. No one accepted any money for the help they provided and were more than happy to drop me to the nearest railway station the next day once they made sure everything was fine.

I also wanted to emphasize that nothing is ever easy, very few lucky ones are able to hit the ground running but most of us have had to work hard to build everything from grounds up here. Changing jobs or even your line of work is never easy, no matter what country you are in.

[Selective]

We hear or read this frequently “being with parents when they need us”. I have some thoughts or observations on this.

Like how we need to be with our kids in their growing age and see and help them grow, it is equally important to see or be with your parents when they are growing old. In my experience, my parents are going through rapid changes (physically and mentally) in last decade, which was an eye opener for me. Their thought process change, their priorities change, they start moving away from materialistic things, etc. I am now realising how important it is, to be with them and understand what they are going through and empathise with them and support them through the changes they are going through. Being away from parents till they are super active, till they are mobile (till they are vacationing, travelling wherever they want, etc) is fine. It is important to recognise the right time, that is once you start observing them slowing down, is when you should move in and start living with them. Otherwise, it will be very difficult for you and your spouse/children to understand and connect with them once you meet them after they change! It is a process and you need to be part of that process if you want to do it in right way.

I have seen my parents doing the same with their parents (my grand parents). As a child I used to wonder why the parents are compromising on few things in life to take care of their parents, now I understand why they did, what they did.

I am sure many of us understand this already, but many may not have prepared well. Just my observations and experience, I thought I should share.

PS: I lived in US for few years early in my career and returned back, as I was very clear in my mind to always stay close to home. I have travelled around the world, appreciate the quality of life and other good things in other parts of the world. But for me, home is where my heart is.

[drmohitg]

Random thought but for people who decide to come back for parents, once your parents have left you for their heavenly abode, do you consider going back? Or consider encouraging your kids to look at the west? It would be interesting to look at that aspect. I am sure most people would be rather settled (happily or otherwise) by then and may not have the energy left to relocate again.

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by am1m

Since the future safety of children is a big factor in your decision, I'd suggest speaking to some Indian women you know to get their perspective. That is one viewpoint that is very under-represented (almost non-existent) on our forum.

It need not come down to actual physical safety/danger. Just the freedom to be, wear what you want, even on public transport, to stay out as late as possible, these are also factors that different countries offer to differing degrees to women. And to them it can make a world of difference.

I wish I could thank or upvote this post 2^32 times.

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by drmohitg

Random thought but for people who decide to come back for parents, once your parents have left you for their heavenly abode, do you consider going back? Or consider encouraging your kids to look at the west? It would be interesting to look at that aspect. I am sure most people would be rather settled (happily or otherwise) by then and may not have the energy left to relocate again.

Interesting question indeed.

I would like to paraphrase one of the best pieces of advice I received when I moved. "...don't let it get to your head that you have upgraded your daughter's life by moving from India to Australia and assume she's going to settle there. You have just redrawn her baseline. Australia will be her new minimum standard and she may elect to move to another country that meets her aspirations.". That's the simple reality and it makes so much sense to me.

I would actually expand your question to ask if people who have elected to move back to take care of their parents expect their children to return the favour during their own retirement? If the answer is no, then it's worthwhile to expand on what empowered them to say no. It could involve factors such as financial stability and security, a good understanding between the couple, confidence, etc.

Everyone deserves a dignified quality of life during their twilight years. It is not going to be easy. It is better for couples to be prepared and be empowered than be at the mercy of others, who themselves have their own challenges. This isn't new either. After all, the parents of girls in India seem to have some special genes which makes them lead quite independent lives when compared to the parents of boys who have this societal norm that they need to be living under the same roof or have first dibs on anything.

[narayans80]

Originally Posted by GandalfTheGrey

We (my wife and I) moved to the Netherlands last year for a period of 2 years. We have no kids as of now. Our plan initially was to work here for 2 years and move back to India

You just moved 2 years back. The fact that you are the only child didn't change in these 2 years.

I've to come back home to take care of my parents, in their final years at least, also would be great have my kid grow in presence of his/her grandparents

You should return back for yourselves. Not for your parents or kids. That is how you will make peace with yourselves. Tomorrow, you shouldn't saying "I came back for you" in an argument, you'll get responses like "Who asked to return" without batting an eyelid.

End of the day, where you want to settle is purely subjective. People with similar status quo have taken differing calls.

I've also told my wife that it's our duty to take care of her parents in their final years.

You shouldn't be telling. It is her call too. You need peace at home first, before looking outside.

Originally Posted by am1m

Since the future safety of children is a big factor in your decision, I'd suggest speaking to some Indian women you know to get their perspective.

Your life decisions hinges entirely on your woman. Not some Indian women on the internet.

Whether you want heaven in hell or hell in heaven, it all starts at home!

Originally Posted by drmohitg

Random thought but for people who decide to come back for parents, once your parents have left you for their heavenly abode, do you consider going back? Or consider encouraging your kids to look at the west? It would be interesting to look at that aspect. I am sure most people would be rather settled (happily or otherwise) by then and may not have the energy left to relocate again.

I'll quote the movies Office Space and Good Will Hunting respectively to answer this question

Peter Gibbons: So I was sitting in my cubicle today, and I realized, ever since I started working, every single day of my life has been worse than the day before it. So that means that every single day that you see me, that's on the worst day of my life.
Dr. Swanson: What about today? Is today the worst day of your life?
Peter Gibbons: Yeah.
Dr. Swanson: Wow, that's messed up.

Sean : No, I'm not kiddin' you, Will. That's why I'm not talkin' right now about some girl I saw at a bar twenty years ago and how I always regretted not going over and talking to her. I don't regret the 18 years I was married to Nancy. I don't regret the six years I had to give up counseling when she got sick. And I don't regret the last years when she got really sick. And I sure as hell don't regret missin' the damn game. That's regret.