[GandalfTheGrey]

Originally Posted by androdev

I feel the right thing to do is to take a hybrid approach to have the best of both worlds and not commit to any single country permanently.

Thank you for you reply. Now this is interesting. This line of thought and way of life makes more sense. This is akin to the saying never put all your eggs in one basket.

Originally Posted by akhil_007

Remember, Holland or for that matter, no country is a Paradise/Heaven. Understand the shortcomings and pick the lesser devil (from your POV)

Thank you for your reply and really nice points. Agreed there's no utopia anywhere, also the grass always looks greener on the other side. So picking the lesser devil, should I pick one, is a nice one.

Originally Posted by nandrive

Answer to your question depends on you, more specifically depends on your socioeconomic background.

Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately, we belong to the segment which is restricted or the entry bar/merit is the highest, to the point that it makes no sense.

Originally Posted by kiku007

Gather all the information that you can possibly get, but process them with a grain of salt to remove bias and prejudice...Only you and your family can decide what's best for you. Good luck and I wish you all the best.

Thank you very much for your reply. Yes agreed, no two experiences or the way one processes information is the same, so it's always good to be cautious while hearing experiences/opinions. That's also one of the reasons I'm posting my query in T-BHP than on social media, I think I'm bound to get quality replies like these here.

Since you mentioned children and mental health I would like to share the below details from UNICEF and WEF.

The data is there. It might be worthwhile to read and understand which country provides a better environment for children to thrive, prosper and be happy.

Wow, the data indeed this makes the decision making quite challenging. Thank you very much for taking time to post these data. Will surely consider these points in my evaluation/decision making process.

Cheers!

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by GandalfTheGrey

We (my wife and I) moved to the Netherlands last year for a period of 2 years. We have no kids as of now. I love the Netherlands, and the country has treated me very well, and I've grown a lot as a person too. I love the people here too for their honest/direct/simple nature.

You are clearly a wise young person to be thinking of these things early on. I'm a little late to this thread but being an opinionated old man will put down my thoughts. :-)

If you choose to settle in Europe, Ireland & Netherlands are by far the two best countries for a brown skin to migrate to. In my time I had a 30-person office in Ireland and did a lot of business with KLM in the Netherlands. Both were delightful folks to deal with. No other European country came close to these two.

My short answer will be to become an international worker. Be someone who can work in India without grumbling and looking down and some one who can work in Europe/USA without getting in awe of those cultures. The world has been integrating for 40 years and knowing how to seamlessly straddle cultures will aid your & your wife's career.

On children, more a little further down.

Being the only kid to my parents, I've to come back home to take care of my parents, in their final years at least, also would be great have my kid grow in presence of his/her grandparents. I've also told my wife that it's our duty to take care of her parents in their final years.

Because of my business spread I had the easy option of becoming a tax migrant to both UAE, Ireland or the UK. And this question was weighed by my wife and me. I'll share the factors that played in my mind and hope it helps you determine your course.

First was what cultural environment do we want our children to grow up in. We are a religious couple and did not want our kids, metaphorically speaking, calling us by our first names. But kids can still be managed by the values you instill at home. The West too has great things to teach your children like civic sense and being more independent. Once you migrate the child for all practical purposes cannot resettle in India in his/her adulthood and this has the implied assumption that the West will be a significantly better place, than India, to live and work in, in the 2050s, 2060s, 2070s - I don't know the answer but the question has merit. Slightly off topic I insisted that my kids do their graduation from India and prove themselves in the fire of the Indian entrance exam system; then that they work in India for a few years, before going abroad for their masters. This forging by fire I believe made them tougher and more resourceful.

The parent question has only one answer. Nothing takes the place of being here in the same city close to your 4 parents and easing their old age. My parents and my in-laws lived with us through their final years and there is a santoshti knowing we did everything we could to make their final years easy especially as mobility deteriorated and in one case dementia set in. Mind you, much as we love our parents, managing the aged is a challenge to say the least.

With series of unfortunate events that happened in our country last few weeks, there's a serious question/doubt in our minds whether our kid/kids will be really safe back in India.

Tragic and deplorable incidents happen everywhere. Very sad but true. As a society, India is larger than North & South America combined. Should we say that the whole of two continents are unsafe because of school shootings in USA? Worth a thought.

On the other hand, we have many people who moved out, recently and long back, saying we're making a mistake going back to India, instead
use this golden opportunity to move out of India.

Those who migrated have a vested interest in touting that route. Tiranga waving nationalists like me will say India is the best, east or west.

Work in the West. Return to India at as senior a level in your MNC that you can. That will help you be a part of their international cadre. Once you take your decision resist the lure of looking over the fence and wondering what might have been.

Best of luck with your journey.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by GandalfTheGrey

So I just want to ask the bhpians,...

Since the future safety of children is a big factor in your decision, I'd suggest speaking to some Indian women you know to get their perspective. That is one viewpoint that is very under-represented (almost non-existent) on our forum.

It need not come down to actual physical safety/danger. Just the freedom to be, wear what you want, even on public transport, to stay out as late as possible, these are also factors that different countries offer to differing degrees to women. And to them it can make a world of difference.

[GandalfTheGrey]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

You are clearly a wise young person to be thinking of these things early on. I'm a little late to this thread but being an opinionated old man will put down my thoughts. :-)

I'm made wiser only by my better half. Thank you very much for taking time and penning down your thoughts!

If you choose to settle in Europe, Ireland & Netherlands are by far the two best countries ...No other European country came close to these two.

One of the reasons we moved to EU was because we got an opportunity to move to the Netherlands. We had rejected chances to move to UK a couple of times in last few years. I'm glad you had a nice experience with the Dutch, as even I share the same experience.

My short answer will be to become an international worker. Be someone who can work in India without grumbling and looking down and some one who can work in Europe/USA without getting in awe of those cultures. ..

Where is the multiple like button when it's needed This is something that I realized quite recently, but you've articulated this perfectly. Guess this is part of one's learning process after moving abroad or if one has right teacher. For me it has been the former.

First was what cultural environment do we want our children to grow up in....
...
Work in the West. Return to India at as senior a level in your MNC that you can. That will help you be a part of their international cadre. Once you take your decision resist the lure of looking over the fence and wondering what might have been.

Best of luck with your journey.

Thank you very much for these inputs.

Originally Posted by am1m

... I'd suggest speaking to some Indian women you know to get their perspective. That is one viewpoint that is very under-represented (almost non-existent) on our forum...
... And to them it can make a world of difference.

Thank you very much. Agreed, completely. In fact, I recently came to know that just the information about trauma a woman undergoes itself is quite traumatic for many women and affects them psychologically. So would definitely gather data from more women.

Cheers!

[Mr.Ogre]

Originally Posted by GandalfTheGrey

Hello Bhpians,

I want to chime in here with my experience and I am sorry if it is an unpopular opinion.

I migrated to Australia when I was 35. Both me and my wife were earning quite well in Mumbai. We had a flat, a car and I was also able to own and ride Kawasaki Ninja 300 and 650. However, I was not happy with the overall situation around. Personally I felt the quality of life was not what I wanted.

Over the years I had grown tired with the chaos, pollution, corruption, total disregard towards others, overall safety of women and public in general in the country and host of other issues. Every day I commuted to work on my bike from Vashi to Goregaon, I would promise that if ever I went to a country where people obeyed traffic rules I would give up all my bad habits.

I believe in the saying "If you do not like something, try and change it, and if you cannot change it, then change it, if that also fails then just accept it and move on". I tried to follow that by participating in every election. Governments changed but things were exactly the way they were if not worse.

This is when I decided to change the country and migrate to either Australia or Canada. We chose Australia because the weather was fine overall which meant we could enjoy our road trips.

Sure it was a huge gamble as I had to look for a job here, especially since the technology that I was working on before had very few jobs here. I quit my job in India, prepared for six to eight months, and by the grace of God I found the right job. I recovered all the money I spent trying to get the PR, retraining myself and relocating to a new country in my first month salary.

After having spent almost 7 years here, I think that was probably the best decision I ever made. My wife and daughter are happy, and they travel around all by themselves without me worrying much. In fact my daughter will be performing at the Opera next month, courtesy of her school. I think I would make the same decision again if I were to go back in the past.

[ashishpotdar]

Consider citizenship by birth for the child as another criteria. This ensures that the child benefits from dual citizenship (PIO/OCI in India), cost of education abroad is far cheaper (1/4th that of International Students in US), US Immigration and Green Card is easier (Lesser country quota queues like India and China) and they have the option to choose which country to eventually settle in.

Far easier in the US, as they have a birth on US soil rule (Jus Soli) for automatic citizenship.
Netherlands is a bit more complicated. Atleast one of the parents needs to have 5 years legal residency.

But keep that as one of the long term criteria before taking the decision.

Also if you have an option to acquire PR/Citizenship in the foreign country, you always have the option to come back and work in India.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by Mr.Ogre

Sure it was a huge gamble as...

Thanks for articulating this. I was wondering how easy is it really is to emigrate these days? Especially with most countries getting more immigrant unfriendly.

For almost everyone I've known who moved to the US, Australia, Singapore, or the EU, it's been a challenge. Either as students taking a huge risk with finances, giving up all the comforts of a well-to-do home to enter a situation where they needed a part-time job while completing their studies. And these days, with no guarantee of a job after college. Or as working professionals who take a risk that anytime their job goes, they might have to leave the country and maybe their families by that time. Happy to say, everyone I know has risen to the challenge and are doing well in the new countries they have chosen. But I know it hasn't been easy for any of them. I'm pretty sure that if I wanted to move to another country tomorrow, it wouldn't be easy at all.

Some of the posts give the impression that people can easily move anywhere and they just need to make the 'choice' to stay back. Is this still the reality?

[Mr.Ogre]

Originally Posted by am1m

Thanks for articulating this. I was wondering how easy is it really is to emigrate these days? Especially with most countries getting more immigrant unfriendly.

I am glad you brought this topic up. Migrating to a new country without any job offer in hand is a gamble that you place on yourself.

Deep down I knew it would not be easy since I would have to learn whole new things, and then try and crack the interviews. Plus pressure from parents and society. Everybody who knew about my plan probably thought I was crazy to leave a well settled life.

But I was mentally prepared to do whatever it takes to make it here. Going back was not an option for me. In fact I even worked in a call center for a few months before I got my proper job. The whole idea was to get the meter running.

Yes, you are right. Now the rules are tight everywhere. Last month Australia tightened student visa rules which does not allow them to stay in the country after their education is over.

Applying for a PR is no longer an option now if someone is above 35. We were probably the last lucky ones who got through. I know it sounds filmy, but I always believed in wanting something badly and working towards it. Rest just falls in place.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Mr.Ogre

I want to chime in here with my experience and I am sorry if it is an unpopular opinion.
.

Thanks for sharing your experiences! You choose to emigrate for several reason around quality of life. Very different from choosing to emigrate to pursue a career and financial gains.

Yours is much more likely to give you a high long term succes in your new home country.

Jeroen

[Mr.Ogre]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Yours is much more likely to give you a high long term succes in your new home country.

Jeroen

Thank you for your kind words. In terms of finance and career goals, I think India has good opportunities too.

Even we were doing well in terms of finance and career. But we moved for other reasons. For reasons that were beyond our control to fix.

I always thank God and my guardian angel for all the right opportunities that came at the right time.

[GandalfTheGrey]

Originally Posted by Mr.Ogre

I want to chime in here with my experience and I am sorry if it is an unpopular opinion.

I migrated to Australia when I was 35....
... I think that was probably the best decision I ever made. My wife and daughter are happy, and they travel around all by themselves without me worrying much. In fact my daughter will be performing at the Opera next month, courtesy of her school. I think I would make the same decision again if I were to go back in the past.

Thank you very much for your reply. I don't think yours is an unpopular opinion. I can partially relate to what you gone through as I know many Indians who've become EU citizens for almost the same reason. Congratulations and all the best for your daughter's performance!

Originally Posted by am1m

Thanks for articulating this. I was wondering how easy is it really is to emigrate these days? Especially with most countries getting more immigrant unfriendly.
... Is this still the reality?

Long rant alert! Okay this is a topic that I like to discuss and love to rant, and I'm not even going to try to be politically correct. There are surely edge cases in my example, but I want to be realistic.

One side of the story: As I said in one of my comments, the amount of people thinking moving abroad is a magic pill for their problems is insanely high and don't do proper research. Two very simple examples, although I can give many.
Example 1: UK -> I know people who left their 10 year well paying tech job to study some MSc degree in UK. Result-> Half of them are working in customer support roles or some entry level analyst roles in the UK. The amount of senior leadership profiles that an entry level job in UK attracts is quite high.
Example 2: Netherlands -> The country has a severe housing shortage. I know students and working professionals who quit their education/jobs half-way and returned back to their home countries simply because they were not able to find a place to stay. The top Dutch universities now openly advice new admits to defer the admission and not come to Netherlands if they aren't able to find a house before 1-2 months of entering the country. It's that bad.

Other side of the story: To cater to such increasing uninformed decision makers, the social media influencers and career guidance companies do borderline, ethically questionable things. The amount of content media such as "5 High Paying Jobs that require no Visa" , "5 companies in xxx country hiring foreigners right now" and so on is flooding social media. Half of the links provided in such content doesn't even work. The amount of social media content/education counselling agencies that promise utopia is disproportionately high than the ones talking about cons. So if someone is in social media bubble, it's easy to fall into trap, with the societal pressure also playing a big factor towards such decision, leading to a snowball effect of people taking less informed decisions.

So what I've personally realized is, it's definitely not as easy as it's portrayed for an unskilled person to migrate. The rules are only getting stricter day by day. But there are also people who've moved abroad just by trying from here. Why? Such people are those genuinely skilled ones, and the hiring party/country needs their skills. Also, the government in such countries have laws that companies can hire such skilled people from outside only if they're unable to find such skills locally. Unless one is a citizen of developed western society, it's quite hard to sustain there with mediocre skills as a migrant. There is a reason why people who move there directly/easily from here are called "highly skilled migrant".

Before moving abroad, I think simple and effective questions to ask oneself would be what is that you can provide from your side in exchange of better quality of life/money which the target country will provide? Is it your skills? If yes, is it really valuable and scarce where you're moving? Or are you going to contribute by paying for your education, thereby helping the economy of that country? If yes, be ready to be highly skillful post education. Also, just because someone moves abroad for education, doesn't mean the country is responsible for providing a job. So if the entry barrier for a country is low, then there's often a backstory to it. I would like to conclude by saying one always has to give, often more, to get something while moving abroad.

A wise person once said, free cheese exists only on mouse traps.

Cheers!

[Cooltronics]

Originally Posted by GandalfTheGrey

My question/request: So I just want to ask the bhpians, many are/would've been in the same boat as I am, on what pointers did you consider if you are/were in a similar position to choose to move out of India completely (or) return to India immediately before starting a family(or)return to India after settling the kids abroad?
Cheers!

Well, accept it or not, you have started to like Netherlands, and you are slowly getting into your comfort zone and now trying to probably convince your mind, how you can settle there
And yes, there is absolutely no harm in it!

Most of us in the middle age spectrum come across this situation and the answer lies in what will give you peace during your final years when you reflect back and think about your decision taken?
There is no right or wrong but shades of grey. You get some you loose some.

Coming to your specific example, it would be considered as a hyperbole to think that India is not so safe so as to not return with kids . Everything is fine here but yes one need to take care of their kids, protect them and yes even if you feel so worried, teach them self-defense.
However, about your parents and your wish to be around them during their final years, that event is a certainty.
Questions you should ask yourself
1) Can I relocate and settle down my parents in Netherlands? Would they like it or not?
2) If not, what should I prefer? kids (and their safety) or parents (and their final years)

Good Luck ! I wish life was easier

[turbowhistle]

Originally Posted by GandalfTheGrey

On the other hand, we have many people who moved out, recently and long back, saying we're making a mistake going back to India, instead
use this golden opportunity to move out of India. One thing I consistently notice among people who have moved out is that they're stuck in time. Such people think their country is still how it is when they moved out. A really good example of this phenomenon is when I see Hindustani Surinamese community in Netherlands who are still more "Indians" than many contemporary Indians themselves. They're in Netherlands for 2-4 generations, still they have strong reservations against many things which are long gone, at least from urban India. So, I always take the advice of people who moved out quite sometime back with a huge pinch of salt.

I love the Netherlands, and the country has treated me very well, and I've grown a lot as a person too. I love the people here too for their honest/direct/simple nature. Am I accepted as one of them? No. Do I care? No As I have no personal fascination/life's dream to settle here or anywhere in western countries. I was happy back in India, and equally happy now in the Netherlands. I've also seen couple of kids in my family who were born abroad face this identity crisis. They're neither able to be identified with the locals abroad, nor with their family back home. So the safety concerns and the difficulties a kid which is will be 1st generation growing outside its country, face. is starting to become a conundrum for us now.

My question/request: So I just want to ask the bhpians, many are/would've been in the same boat as I am, on what pointers did you consider if you are/were in a similar position to choose to move out of India completely (or) return to India immediately before starting a family(or)return to India after settling the kids abroad? I know this is purely a question of personal preference, but your points of considerations would be of great help in my decision making. Thank you in advance!

Cheers!

As someone who has been in Germany for almost 6 years and in a very similar position like you, here are my 2 cents with a background first.

I moved to Germany in early 2019 when it was totally unexpected, I had a nice job in India and had zero plans to come here. When the opportunity arrived, I was just married and in a phase where I could take the risk so we came. Fast forward to 2024, we have a small kid who was born in Germany and growing up here. A lot of my family and friends also say that this is like a golden opportunity for us and we should not come back to India which I think you can relate as well.

However, we have decided to move back to India in a certain timeframe (before the kiddo starts the school) and here are my reasoning

1. Similarly like you, I love Berlin and have had a favorable experience so far but I know I will never be accepted here as a local, I have tried mixing up with neighbours, other kita parents and have had good success but still no sense of belonging. This was the major factor for us I would say. I grew up with a lot of friends and family and I genuinely miss this thing here in Berlin. It's also a bit difficult to make new friends here after a certain age.
2. My kid growing up without relatives or grand parents. Video calls are simply not it and although my mother spends few months every year in DE, it still feels a bit cumbersome to travel this much in her age. Also away from everyone else with only a small window to meet in a year.
3. Ageing parents. As we are growing old, our parents are growing old as well and it hurts to not be there for smaller things where they get stuck. There have been few instances where my parents or in laws were stuck for minor things which could have been easily fixed if we were there.
4. We never had any fascination of settling down in EU/US growing up, somehow we accidently landed here and that has helped us make the decision to move back a bit easy. We just consider this as a bonus for our financial situation. This helped us with not being attached to the money here and I consider this a big factor as well.
5. I come from a tier 1 city, I know it's a different reason but I know moving back will not bring a lot of change in my lifestyle or professional situation.(Keeping typical Indian issues aside) I know this is a factor for a lot of people who come from tier 2 or 3 towns where it's not easy to move back and find a job quickly so for them staying in EU is similar to staying in another town in India


Considering these things, we realised it's better to move back to India before the kid starts going to the school ( by the time she's 6 year old) to maximise the savings and also cover the travel possibilities in EU. It also works as kind of stepping stone for the kid as she can start the school without much hinderance there. I know this will bring some discomfort but it is what it is and we have accepted it as of now. We have a certain date in our mind and we have already started working on winding up things slowly.

[DigitalOne]

Short video on why record number of Indians are moving out of Sweden, either back to India or to other countries. I am guessing this would be same situation with any other western European country in a couple of years. The comments section of the video is also quite revealing, for those who are seriously considering Sweden or any other EU country to migrate to.

https://youtu.be/t6GTDE6RQSA?si=KeZCZjUfT2rKK0Xb

[PreludeSH]

Originally Posted by DigitalOne

Short video on why record number of Indians are moving out of Sweden, either back to India or to other countries. I am guessing this would be same situation with any other western European country in a couple of years. The comments section of the video is also quite revealing, for those who are seriously considering Sweden or any other EU country to migrate to.

https://Youtu.be/t6GTDE6RQSA?si=KeZCZjUfT2rKK0Xb

This is something specific to kind of violence happening across EU due to migration and refugees.

Govts want immigration to earn and support the social security aspects for the aging population. People don't think similar and are more worried about pollution of traditions and rising violence.