[vishnurp99]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Exactly. It is one of the weirdest things I noticed while living in USA for a decade. The public schools are funded mostly by property taxes. And one has to be resident of the same school district in order to attend that public school. So affluent parents pay high premium to buy a house or rent a house in a school district that has a good school. So, the rent and home prices use to skyrocket in the school district that had good schools, which increased the budget of the school even further. While the poor districts had pathetic schools with little budget.

I think the new school choice laws will probably address this to some extent. This is quite a polarising issue in some of the states in US based on some recent conversations. Obviously the question is whether it will bring down the general quality or push up the quality for the laggard schools

In the recent past, I have started seeing a lot of well-to-do friends & family send their kids to private schools in the US.

There is a lot to like about the US & western school systems in general. Beyond volunteerism, I like the focus on extra-curricular activities, facilities for Sports etc. Some life skills like swimming are taught at an elementary level and pretty much everybody knows to swim.

However you have to be blind to think that there is no trade-off in being in the US/west. In India, the kids get to enjoy outdoor activities all through out the year & you have the opportunity to learn different languages, understand the different cultural contexts etc. In most cities, you just have to drive say 30-40 kms away from the city to be in really beautiful locales and enjoy the natural abundance of the land. Opportunities for volunteerism with various youth clubs & social & spiritual organisations are common in my native city - that atleast is not unique to the west.

The relationships that the kids will build with their grand parents, cousins, relatives etc. are valuable and it results them in growing up as more well-rounded individuals.

I am from the south and speak 4 languages well and can read & write to a decent proficiency in three of them. That would not have happened if I had studied in the US. Obviously India is hyper competitive but that is not entirely bad either. With the right guidance & focus, you can get high quality education at a pittance compared to what you would spend in the US and you will be ready to conquer the world once you do that. Indian salaries are also much higher than what they used to be.

I think ultimately it's a just a matter of what is important for you and how important it is for you to transfer your cultural & societal heritage/baggage depending on your perspective to the next generation. From my perspective, I think a mix of Indian & western education & living is ideal for the kids & also for their parents.

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by vishnurp99

I am from the south and speak 4 languages well and can read & write to a decent proficiency in three of them. That would not have happened if I had studied in the US.

I have 3 kids in the public school here in US. They know Hindi, English, Spanish/French and can understand Punjabi. Also, one of them is a black belt in karate, other will be in a couple of months, and third is a brown belt already. One kid is enjoying participating in robotics competitions and the other is competing in Bharatnatyam dance competitions. One is in the school jazz band playing trombone and the other plays the cello. Youngest one is on his way to becoming an expert skier. None of them are even 15 yet. And this is not even anything special as almost every kid here is getting an opportunity to have these diverse experiences and learn different skills that are not in text books.

And to top it all, we still manage to spend quality family time together, go on bike rides/hikes, watch movies and just be with each other.

[kbnissan]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

No they don’t. There are some exceptionally good ones and some exceptionally bad ones…

Completely agree. I was referring to the schools which fall in the good school districts where majority of Indians in USA would be sending their kids. Like you referred, the schools in the under proivileged definitely suffer due to under funding and other such issues.

Originally Posted by Jaguar

Do you mean Some Useful Periods Wasted…

Exactly, SUPW used to be a buffer period (apart from games period) for the teachers who were running behind on completing the portions.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by vishnurp99

In India, the kids get to enjoy outdoor activities all through out the year & you have the opportunity to learn different languages, understand the different cultural contexts etc.

Unorganized sports! This is one of the most important aspect of growing up in India. My parents never got a glimpse of how I had to roam the town/city to negotiate my entry into various kids group in order to play with them. Nothing was delivered on the platter to me, like parents arranging every activity. And my son got to experience the same. He found his own friends in the area, played with them on a daily basis, without me having to pickup or drop or arrange. Best of all, he walked to school on his own since age 10, took the public bus to college after age 17 until he finished his Master's this year. Ironically, he an US citizen.

I used to watch my boss and wife in USA controlling every aspect of their kids time everyday. The kids could not walk anywhere, parents had to drop/pickup every time. And every sport they play was organized.

[kbnissan]

Originally Posted by kbnissan

Completely agree. I was referring to the schools which fall in the good school districts where majority of Indians in USA would be sending their kids. Like you referred, the schools in the under proivileged definitely suffer due to under funding and other such issues.


Exactly, SUPW used to be a buffer period (apart from games period) for the teachers who were running behind on completing the portions.

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar

I would have agreed about this if this was era of 1990 but in decade of 2020s. I regularly see study tours being organised by schools within / outside india with a healthy participation. With availability of internet and other mediums, it is at par IMO.

This comes back to the point I made in one of my earlier posts. The schools that conduct such tours are International schools which cater to the affluent. I don’t think the majority of schools where our children study can do such trips.

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar

I see nothing wrong if kids are doing it voluntarily. Have we ever wondered why our kids excel in STEM while US is trying to promote STEM with in their own populace. It is the best age for them to learn & do some hard work. Still better than getting exposure to Substance abuse & indulge in experimental things i cannot talk about on this forum.

It is very naïve to assume that kids in our schools are not experimenting with recreational drugs and other things. What we can do as parents is to drill into them the downfalls of reckless behaviour.

MODS – can you combine the above text with this post?

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by Pequod

These are just extreme ways of looking at how a collectivistic society works vis-à-vis an individualistic society...

This is exactly the bias that I referred to. This is such a broad-brush statement that doesn't hold water.

Originally Posted by amitoj

Absolutely. I know quite a few non-Indian origin families here whose principles and standards are way above anyone I know in India. By that, I mean the way they care for those not as fortunate as themselves, or are not from the same background or culture as their own.

There in lies the reality. Such good people/cultures/value systems exist everywhere. It is fallacy to believe that it exists only in one place or that it'll dilute if the human leaves that one particular place.

Originally Posted by androdev

Many young people come to this thread seeking immigration advice. At their age and social circumstances, the primary focus area tends to be about finances and logistics. However we all know that finances and logistics take a back seat within a couple of years and issues related to relationships, identity, meaningfulness , etc. come to the forefront.

The reasons for migration are changing and it is not always just for money, albeit it certainly is part of the equation. The most recent post/question from a member is a prime example of that.

I think it is easy to get philosophical about money and claim it has a lower priority in life after making (a lot of) money. Besides, if at all someone decides to not join the rat-race (as they call it) and live a different life that focuses on experiences and frugality vs. job titles, IMHO they have a better chance abroad without being judged by their extended-family or having any social stigma. In this same thread we can see how people looked down at their relatives driving trucks in Canada.

Some people can find new meaning for their life or expand their identity because of their travels/migration. Some people can retain their values intact even after migration, while exchanging respect with the new communities they integrate with.

The Indian diaspora living overseas (past and present) has been very successful in showing India's colorful and rich culture, food, religion, festivals etc. to the rest of the world. This is a key driver behind people abroad having a better understanding and appreciation of the above mentioned aspects. If I may say so, non-Indians aren't just watching these from a distance, but they also participate and enjoy as well. There's of course the growing soft-power that this diaspora commands.

Yet, we go through the judgemental nature of arguments in this thread every time someone asks a question and god forbid some NRI/PIO/OCI provides some objective responses to the OP about why X is better than Y. I don't think anyone providing responses to the queries finds pleasure in outlining what didn't work or what they couldn't find in India. The same people also point out areas where India is better. I'm all for discussing the positives and negatives objectively.

Originally Posted by androdev

If you are proud of being who you are, be yourself on whichever part of the Earth you put your tent. There is nothing to be ashamed of the values you grow up with. Understand the difference between success and happiness. Don't trade happiness for success. You should aspire for both.

. Let us not assume that others are trading happiness for success because of their decision to migrate. May be that was the situation for one person but not for the others.

Originally Posted by vb-saan

The ideas of close-knit family, values, personal space, community living – all exist in other cultures as well. Its just about how each person see those.

+1. Thanks for putting in words what I tried to communicate with my meme.

[vij]

Originally Posted by kiku007

we go through the judgemental nature of arguments in this thread every time someone asks a question and god forbid some NRI/PIO/OCI provides some objective responses to the OP about why X is better than Y. I don't think anyone providing responses to the queries finds pleasure in outlining what didn't work or what they couldn't find in India. The same people also point out areas where India is better. I'm all for discussing the positives and negatives objectively.
.

Not really. What few Resident Indians are essentially saying is that they are managing well and are building a good future for their kids. Why do NRI/PIO/OCI find it important to dispute personal experiences of fulfilment.

My son studies in a private Indian school, school has basketball court, Tennis courts, great labs etc. knows 4 languages at 11. He is a Karate black belt, a good singer, guitarist and participates in numerous science fairs n cultural programmes.I am a proud Resident Indian, father of a proud young-Indian. Hope that’s okay.

Originally Posted by kiku007

This is exactly the bias.
. Let us not assume that others are trading happiness for success because of their decision to migrate. May be that was the situation for one person but not for the others...

Please don’t assume we are all trading away a “better life” by choosing to stay in India. That is ridiculous.

[speed79]

I graduated from one of the coveted Engineering Institutes in 2001, and unlike majority of my classmates, never had an urge of moving to the Land of Opportunity. In 2005, I was on intra-company transfer 5 year work visa as alien (yes alien is official term in Japan) in Japan when I resigned, came back to India and started my software company and have been continuing till date.

This month I and my family went to USA to spend some time with my BIL and his family. It was not my first visit, but earlier I used to go only for 1 or 2 days taking time out of my business visits. During these 15 days, I could observe the life there more closely. The kids go to school and thereafter they are ferried to various sports activities by the parents. On most days the kids would be back at home by 8:00 - 9:00 PM. To me, the life of kids seems too hectic, but they never seemed to complain. Probably they enjoy it. Academic wise, they are far behind as compared to kids in India. It was the same story with kids of other Indian families there as well. From what I understood, the parents put the kids for various sports activities so that they can get accepted at universities on basis of sports. Unlike India, the kids do not go out and play with their friends in the neighborhood. You see only houses, driveways, empty roads and an occasional car on the road. Sometimes it seems too depressing not to see a single soul on the road.

On all weekends they play golf for hours in the morning and have parties at night, where a number of families go to one's house. Everyone has a bar in the basement. The party is all about adults drinking endlessly in basement and the kids glued to their iPhones/iPads while the adults were busy drinking. On some occasions, the kids are left back at home, while the parents party till 2-3 AM in the night. This is not the life I can live. One cultural shock for me was that when they meet each other at parties, they hug each other. Come on, I can hug my close friend, but not his wife. Is it that Indian become highly affectionate after living in US of A? I could not really understand in my limited experience.

About the competitiveness of the Indian kids in sports in USA: how many Indians have ever been part of USA national sports teams or have represented USA at international games/Olympics?

Every country has its own merits and demerits. No place is perfect. One needs to compromise for few things in life whenever one moves from a place to another, whether the move is within India or to foreign land.

I know a family from Ludhiana who had a palatial home in Ludhiana with a swimming pool, the husband had a good business and the wife had own boutique and they were doing very good. They moved to Canada as they were worried that their good-for-nothing son cannot survive in India. The husband now drives a truck in Canada, the wife works in a store, and their son is a YouTuber who keeps on making videos on "Life in Canada" for the Canada aspirants back in Punjab. They now repent moving to Canada, giving up their lavish life in India.

[Pequod]

Originally Posted by kiku007

This is exactly the bias that I referred to. This is such a broad-brush statement that doesn't hold water

I believe you either misunderstand my post or haven’t read it in entirety. Your meme is a depiction of extremes, and as you have pointed out many people tend to think only in extremes, especially when it relates to belief/value systems.

Whereas reality is a spectrum between those extremes and it’s up to each individual to find the balance they are comfortable with - that’s what I intended to convey.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by Samurai

I used to watch my boss and wife in USA controlling every aspect of their kids time everyday. The kids could not walk anywhere, parents had to drop/pickup every time. And every sport they play was organized.

That describes just about every parent and child I know in Bangalore these days! With a generous dose of tutions, IIT coaching, etc.

I guess more than a difference between countries/cultures, this is a big city and smaller town difference across countries.

Originally Posted by kiku007

Yet, we go through the judgemental nature of arguments in this thread every time someone asks a question and god forbid some NRI/PIO/OCI provides some objective responses to the OP about why X is better than Y....I'm all for discussing the positives and negatives objectively.

Been trying to make this point at different places in the thread. The original query that kicked off this particular round has been answered very well and objectively. Doesn't make sense for the salary figures quoted and I'm sure that helped the person who posted the query. But now the thread is back to general, high-level for vs against. Again.

[Theyota]

Originally Posted by speed79

Every country has its own merits and demerits. No place is perfect. One needs to compromise for few things in life whenever one moves from a place to another, whether the move is within India or to foreign land.

I think everyone agrees to your statement above. But you are contradicting yourself in the rest of your post. Your post seems to give a picture of you spending your two weeks of vacation in the US to mostly point out what is wrong in the US or Indians in the US in your perspective. You even forget to see that your perspective is only coming from the life of the Indian family you lived with for barely 15 days.

This month I and my family went to USA to spend some time with my BIL and his family. It was not my first visit, but earlier I used to go only for 1 or 2 days taking time out of my business visits. During these 15 days, I could observe the life there more closely. The kids go to school and thereafter they are ferried to various sports activities by the parents. On most days the kids would be back at home by 8:00 - 9:00 PM.

You are assuming what a subset of Indian/Asian families in the US do as representative of overall US system.

It was the same story with kids of other Indian families there as well. From what I understood, the parents put the kids for various sports activities so that they can get accepted at universities on basis of sports.

Wrong. The chances of getting into good schools are better if in addition to academics, a prospective student can show development in one or more of leadership, social service, sport or other kind of extra curricular activity. To get into school on basis of sports alone, you have to be national level competition grade and parents are not stupid to think that every kid participating in an after school sport activity will reach that level.

On all weekends they play golf for hours in the morning and have parties at night, where a number of families go to one's house. Everyone has a bar in the basement. The party is all about adults drinking endlessly in basement and the kids glued to their iPhones/iPads while the adults were busy drinking. On some occasions, the kids are left back at home, while the parents party till 2-3 AM in the night.

Assuming you are right about Golf, if someone has the time and resources to play Golf every weekend, what is wrong with it? Not all houses have a basement, let alone a bar. How can you generalize like this from just visiting a country? But, yes, the percentage of people who consume alcohol is probably significantly higher compared to India. But to say a party in the US is all about endless drinking, it is very close minded.

One cultural shock for me was that when they meet each other at parties, they hug each other. Come on, I can hug my close friend, but not his wife. Is it that Indian become highly affectionate after living in US of A?

It is ok to be uncomfortable with a certain customs. Different cultures have different customs.Some like their La Bise, some like air kisses or two little pecks, some bump noses, some take a bend, we fall flat at our grandparents feet, some Tibetans even stick our their tongues. As long as they do not force others to do it, it shouldn't be anybody's business.

About the competitiveness of the Indian kids in sports in USA: how many Indians have ever been part of USA national sports teams or have represented USA at international games/Olympics?

I am not getting what's your point here? Indians in general have dismal sports record anywhere in the world including India. But does it mean that we should not play sport? Sport is not just for winning Olympics.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by am1m

That describes just about every parent and child I know in Bangalore these days!

There are always folks who like to pretend they are in America. There are quite a few people who celebrate Halloween trick-or-treat in my Bangalore building too, but we have kids playing outside every evening. I also live half the time in a smaller town, where things are very normal. Lots of unorganized sports and kids walk to school.

Originally Posted by am1m

With a generous dose of tutions, IIT coaching, etc.

Fortunately, no IIT coaching madness in my circle. My son didn't even take the science route to IT industry. He did B.com and MCA to become a techie.

[digitalnirvana]

Originally Posted by am1m

But now the thread is back to general, high-level for vs against. Again.

It feels like a struggle. The thread defaults to this state every 10 pages or so. Its like battling a Hydra, there's always more heads than one can count. I still come here looking for actual "advice seeking" posts but they're increasingly more difficult to find.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by digitalnirvana

It feels like a struggle. The thread defaults to this state every 10 pages or so. Its like battling a Hydra, there's always more heads than one can count.

Yup, it is as Sri Krishna says in the Geeta.

Yada yada hi dharmasya ...... Dharmasangsthapanarthay sambhabami yuge yuge

In the context of this thread, whenever folks start bashing India to justify their emigration, someone (or many) will raise to bring the thread back to equilibrium.

[digitalnirvana]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Yada yada hi dharmasya ...... Dharmasangsthapanarthay sambhabami yuge yuge

I'm but very small and insignificant before this message.

Sorry I didn't mean to call you out or those who share your views specifically, and apologies if it came across like this.

I don't have a solution that is not draconian, but please can you and the mods review the moderation on this thread so that a vocal few of us don't turn this into an us vs them thing ad infinitum. Its just too much noise.

Sure I could ignore the thread but that's not the point, we were supposed to use this as a place for queries and advice. Instead we have two sides going at each other and it drowns out the good stuff.