[vishnurp99]

Originally Posted by kbnissan

When your work hours stretch from 9 AM to 10 PM it kind of takes away a lot of sheen from Shining India experience .... Late night calls used to be minimal when I was working in USA for 10 years and is pretty much then norm since I moved back to India (more than a decade ago).

Just wanted to make a limited point here :-
What you are describing here is a company specific & people specific problem. I have worked with multiple product & consulting orgs in India and outside India. You need to draw the line on what your work hours are. Typically the good organizations respect that. if they don't, then it's time to look for a different job. I have seen similar problems with some US companies too - especially the retail e-commerce companies - you should see how their work timings look like during the thanksgiving & Christmas seasons - especially the late evenings & nights.

Obviously if your work involves interfacing with folks in the US West coast, you do those calls at a mutually convenient time - either Indian late nights or early mornings but you design your day around those hours so that the time for work is limited to 8-9 hours a day. This could be a preferred working arrangement since you may get to spend more time with your kids & family and beat the traffic too if you plan it out well.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I expect from a school that it teaches and familiarises young kids with all aspects of life. They need to teach "hard" skills, e.g. reading, math, writing etc.

I fully agree with this part.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

But they also need to prepare kids for the broader world out there. And whether we like it, that world out there has wars, mass shootings, rapes, porn, 3000+ different religions and transgenders.

However, I don't know how this can be taught at school. These are highly controversial topics, whose opinion should be taught? A progressive school will have a different take than a say catholic convent school or madrassa.

Incidentally, I heard this talk from a founding headmistress of one of the top secondary schools of UK. It is the 4th Best Secondary School for Academic Performance in England. I would guess she knows more about teaching kids than anyone in this thread.

Jump up 37:10 position directly.

https://youtu.be/3taXF-cjLBc?t=2230

To give you a contrast, this is what happened in a very liberal Amherst Middle school, in western Massachusetts. Keep in mind this is TYT, a very progressive liberal media channel.

https://youtu.be/VyShdGKQw1A

[am1m]

Originally Posted by androdev

It always amuses me when I see "effort to integrate" is seen as some kind of virtue or a desirable trait.

Just about as amusing as when "staying in <mother country>" is made out to be some kind of virtue.

Originally Posted by androdev

Imagine the shock and betrayal when you finally realise that family has a totally different concept in the West.

I can understand that it could be that way, but I mean, one has taken the voluntary and conscious decision to move to another country. To raise one's kids there. It is to be expected that things will be different there and the children will grow up with the cultural influences of the country they are in. Is it realistic to expect things in that country to be the same as in one's home country?

Things/culture isn't even the same across states in our country. I identify with that, as someone who was born and raised in Bangalore, while both my parents were born and raised in a neighboring state. Why would they be shocked if I think of Bangalore as home, instead of their home towns/state? Thank god they don't feel betrayed when I speak Kannada far better than I do my "mother" tongue. And that is a practical thing, because I need the language for my day to day activities, far more than I would ever need any other Indian language. (It's not about which language is superior, naturally, just about being practical.) And language is just one point of difference.

Originally Posted by androdev

It's irrelevant to discuss which version is better.

100% agreed. Which is why I've been trying to make the point that some people will be happy emigrating, some won't. To each their own. Always good to hear facts and experiences that help people make the decision either way.

[androdev]

Originally Posted by amitoj

There in lies the problem. As long as you believe in respecting others' value systems without thinking of them as inferior and be open to viewpoints different than yours, you should not have any problem.
Maybe I misunderstood your post. Can you elaborate on how one value system would be better than other?

Respecting others values is hardly a challenge of the magnitude I am referring to. We all inherently believe our values being better than others - that's what makes us who we are and who we want to be. Vegetarians believe being vegetarian is a better personal value to live by but they have no problem in respecting the choice of others being non-vegetarians. The problem comes when they are forced to become non-vegetarian in the name of cultural integration. Obviously this is a contrived example but a lot of cultural integration involves dealing with such conflicts at personal level. This is not some law enforced cultural integration but the soft power of the society we choose to live in. It's not rare to see NRIs with pre-planned return to India to avoid the consequences of this soft power.

Originally Posted by am1m

100% agreed. Which is why I've been trying to make the point that some people will be happy emigrating, some won't. To each their own. Always good to hear facts and experiences that help people make the decision either way.

The decision to immigrate is evaluated during a very young age. Most people consider immigration as an irreversible phenomenon and come up with weird logic to put up with nonsense of the host country. The circumstances keep evolving - both personal as well as the dynamics in the host country. It's best not to stick to a single place and sing songs about it because you are stuck in it. Like the birds, know your winters and summers. There are options outside of mandatory cultural integration into the host country.

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by androdev

The problem comes when they are forced to become non-vegetarian in the name of cultural integration. Obviously this is a contrived example but a lot of cultural integration involves dealing with such conflicts at personal level.

When emigrating, you have to have an open mind and be willing to adapt, or have strong enough will to stand your ground. For example, if you want to wear kurta pyjama every time you want to go grocery shopping, no one is going to stop you from entering the store. But you should expect a couple of people staring at you or even an occasional jibe thrown your way.

Immigrating is a very personal decision and there is no right or wrong. One person's poison is another person's medicine.

Originally Posted by Samurai

To give you a contrast, this is what happened in a very liberal Amherst Middle school, in western Massachusetts. Keep in mind this is TYT, a very progressive liberal media channel.

The culprit got kicked out of their job and put on administrative leave. Try doing that in an Indian school! TYT might be a liberal channel but the host Ana Kasparian is more of a pseudo-liberal, the kind who prefers viewership over principles.

Originally Posted by dragonfire

Being raised as an American chances are better that the kid will end up becoming a better human being than in India

I can see where this is coming from and I don't disagree. People seem to be unfairly jumping on this statement, totally ignoring the word, "chances" in the statement. When you are exposed to different cultures, races, ethnicities, ideas and identities, you grow up learning to be more tolerant and respectful of those who are different from you and even develop the courage to stand up and help someone in need. Which may be more difficult to do when you know everyone around you is actually your competitor.

[Vishal.R]

Originally Posted by dragonfire

Being raised as an American chances are better that the kid will end up becoming a better human being than in India

If someone believes that growing up in specific country (or religion or race) would make someone a better person, that itself is fundamentally wrong thinking.

For any kid, biggest influence is family in which he/she grows up in. Even if biggest influence, it's not the only deciding factor, otherwise there wouldn't be any difference in mindset/success failure between siblings.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by amitoj

The culprit got kicked out of their job and put on administrative leave. Try doing that in an Indian school!

Hmm, why not? I just googled "teacher suspended" and there were so many cases of it, even government teachers. These are all in India.

Originally Posted by amitoj

TYT might be a liberal channel but the host Ana Kasparian is more of a pseudo-liberal, the kind who prefers viewership over principles.

Oh, because she objected to being called birthing person? She was very progressive left until then. But the woke-mob instantly turned on her, and she discovered what most classic liberal have realized. The left eats its own. The moment you fail the purity test, you get named a pseudo-liberal or alt-right.

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Hmm, why not? I just googled "teacher suspended" and there were so many cases of it, even government teachers. These are all in India.

Oh, because she objected to being called birthing person?

Maybe they fell out of favor with the administration I dont deny the corruption in US education system but the Indian education system is still rooted in what the Britishers left us with. The amount of exposure to different aspects of life that the kids get here even in public schools, you'd have to spend top dollar in India to get your kid to that kind of a private school. And even then the disparity between what the school is teaching and what lies outside the school gates would be difficult to reconcile for the kids.

As for TYT or Ana K, there are more examples of them abandoning their liberal station the moment it was time for them to put their words into action. I dont care what they say on YouTube. I look at what they do when the camera is not on them.

[Pequod]

Originally Posted by amitoj

The amount of exposure to different aspects of life that the kids get here even in public schools, you'd have to spend top dollar in India to get your kid to that kind of a private school. And even then the disparity between what the school is teaching and what lies outside the school gates would be difficult to reconcile for the kids.

Just trying to understand, what is the exposure / aspects of life being referred to here? As in what kind or nature of exposure? Knowledge, diversity, socio-cultural mores?

[.sushilkumar]

Originally Posted by amitoj

The amount of exposure to different aspects of life that the kids get here even in public schools, you'd have to spend top dollar in India to get your kid to that kind of a private school.

What's the definition of exposure here if i may ask Pls.

Edit- Just seeing similar post from @pequod. Mods may delete this if it sounds repetitive.

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by Pequod

Just trying to understand, what is the exposure / aspects of life being referred to here? As in what kind or nature of exposure? Knowledge, diversity, socio-cultural mores?

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar

What's the definition of exposure here if i may ask Pls.

Edit- Just seeing similar post from @pequod. Mods may delete this if it sounds repetitive.

I'll give one example. Mandatory volunteering hours for high school students.

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by amitoj

how one value system would be better than other?

I think the inherent bias/fear is to think that one value system promotes this,




and the other value system promotes this,



Reality is quite different. Those who know will know.

[Kelly66]

Originally Posted by prasha7

Thanks everyone for pitching their views around my post(https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shift...ml#post5754194 (Emigrating to a Foreign Land!))

My main motive to move is to gain new cultural experiences and given I'm in my late 20s and single, I felt it'd be my last chance to experience that without thinking of other responsibilities.
I have plans to come back after some years(H1B seems to have 6 years validity without I140) as I want to be close to my parents. Given the salary is very low and based on inputs from everyone I'd try to push them to give higher salary may be around 150K for Texas(As taxes are less there). Just don't want to pass on this opportunity and regret later, I know the risk is high looking at my current earnings but I believe I'd be able to achieve that there also after few switches. Worse if everything fails can come back to India and try to get another job.

Do you like your India job? Are you longing to go to work everyday and learn something new? I am sure you are working on a niche skill like AI/ML/Data Science, else 75L for 6 yrs exp in India is very rare. Correct me if I am wrong.

$150K is ok for a fresher who has just finished his MS in US. With 6 yrs exp under your belt, its not like for like.

Morever, if you go for a few yrs at this age, I am sure you will be pushed to get married soon and then you will go back for a few more years and have a baby there. Then you will not feel like coming back because your kid is a US citizen and you will want him/her to have the best early years. After a few yrs, you won't feel like coming back because your child can't adjust in India and you will want to settle there because your wife also has a good job or a happy homemaker with a good social life. If that's what your ultimate aim is, then this move is ok, else I would say enjoy your fat paycheck here. I am sure you are working for an MNC. See if they can relocate you to US or offer an onsite opportunity on a project.

Worst case, take a 2 week holiday to US (every year) to experience the culture. You will save much more in India and you can be close to your parents.

PS: I have made some generic assumptions above, and I reserve the right to be wrong :-)

[androdev]

Great, the internet discussion has descended into the meme realm. Believe in whatever reality makes you feel comfortable.

Accommodating the differences I have with my own grown siblings, their spouses, my parents, in-laws, grown children and kid-in-laws (mind you, these are all first-degree family) so we could enjoy spending time together is a personal value that I am proud of. A group that's spending time together doesn't automatically imply they are all likeminded people without serious differences. It's a matter of accommodating the differences in the larger interest of the family togetherness. I am not that fortunate that my every social need can be met by beer buddies and banter. I need my family through out my life and I am going to make conscious efforts to have a go at it.

Take this thread as an example. This is a remarkable thread on this forum where we hold extremely polarising views on the topic but we are still able stay "under one roof" and have a discussion. The people are same - we would be fighting like rabid dogs on any other typical social media. That's the power of moderation and intervention to keep the group functional.

Many young people come to this thread seeking immigration advice. At their age and social circumstances, the primary focus area tends to be about finances and logistics. However we all know that finances and logistics take a back seat within a couple of years and issues related to relationships, identity, meaningfulness , etc. come to the forefront. These are not the things you would go to a public forum and post about it and everything is so irrevocably tied up that you have to make peace with the new reality. It's not a question of which is better. It's like your brain is replaced by something else - are you the same person you thought you are?

If you are proud of being who you are, be yourself on whichever part of the Earth you put your tent. There is nothing to be ashamed of the values you grow up with. Understand the difference between success and happiness. Don't trade happiness for success. You should aspire for both.

[Pequod]

Originally Posted by amitoj

I'll give one example. Mandatory volunteering hours for high school students.

Great, but then “mandating” a voluntary act is self-contradictory, and need not result in the desired outcome every time. There may be instances where children are genuinely not interested in “volunteering”, and then what? Curious.

With that said, I am still unable to grasp what exposure is being referred to here. My daughter is a student in the largest public school system in India – a conscious choice driven in large part by our wish to extend her the opportunity to learn and interact with students / peer group from a diverse spectrum of our populace. There’s different languages, different socio-economic strata of children she’s exposed to and that’s what we wanted. I doubt she would get this at any private school, which are more often than not insulated by their very nature.

Of course, this is an anecdotal example, and I do not mean to put down or insinuate that the US schooling system is somehow lesser – just that each society has its own needs.

I for one also believe that parental values have the greatest influence on a child, with schools playing a supporting role.

Originally Posted by kiku007

I think the inherent bias/fear is to think that one value system promotes this,
….
and the other value system promotes this,
Reality is quite different. Those who know will know.

These are just extreme ways of looking at how a collectivistic society works vis-à-vis an individualistic society, I bet there would be equally extreme / hilarious memes out there contrasting the Western world view with their own self-image. The point is to not be fooled into such a thought process, and be open to experiencing a different culture and forming one’s own opinions. Of course, that opinion could be chalk and cheese for different individuals.