[.sushilkumar]

Originally Posted by dragonfire

Being raised as an American chances are better that the kid will end up becoming a better human being than in India

I do not want to make it India vs US debate but as a father and somebody who refused to move to greener pastures, the quoted remarks present a highly biased viewpoint.

Ultimately, It all depends on parenting which decides if one's kids will be better human being or not & what values they inherit. Genes do not care for location unfortunately.

From what i have seen, majority of indians in US choose to upbring their kids with their indian middle class values and kids going through Gender identity crisis is US thing !!!

One's upbringing being good or not cannot be judged with their US or western up-bringing. I can cite thousand examples of otherwise. If indian upbringing was so bad, we would not have seen so many global CEO;s / CFO's / executives as indians.

[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by dragonfire

Yet I see people queuing up at US embassies for a US visa and not the other way around. There are about 1.1 million GC applications from Indian nationals pending and the number is increasing every day.

Being raised as an American chances are better that the kid will end up becoming a better human being than in India

Although many of your points are valid the last statement is definitely not true and depends upon a lot of factors. Also its very hard to define a "better human being".

I was born in India and but at a very young age my family moved to the US in the 1980s along with other relatives and their families. For some reason or the other people in my family have been migrating to the US since 1914 (not a typo). The majority returned to India eventually. My family thought life in the US would be great and we would stay there permanently but after 8 years my family moved back to in India in the mid 1990s. This was not due to visa reasons as we had come on a family based Green Card. My father was of the opinion that US is culturally not a good place to bring up kids.

My sister and I moved to Lucknow when we were in our early teens and schooling was a shock change compared to the US. But with a close knit family and good peer group we both went to the best schools and managed to secure admission to the best Universities in India and then abroad for Phd. We both also did very well in careers in the Tech industry and Health research.

My cousins who remained in the US didn't do well academically (some even didn't even finish high school!) and even got into lot of trouble on the wrong side of the law. I think this is a lot to do with the peer group, family support (or lack of) and society overall. This story was repeated in many other Indian families who migrated to the US in the 1970s-80s that we were close to. I know of a few who are in their 30s and never had a single job and still living with their parents.

I returned to the US in 2022 after about 25+ years and if I compare my education level with my cousins and peer group who stayed in the US there is a huge difference in knowledge, income, jobs and standard of living. The difference is greatest in terms of awareness of the world events and anything which happens outside the US. There is also a big difference in family structure/ belonging and responsibilities which is not generally acceptable by
most Indian families. I can't say who is a better human being but it definitely can't be based on where you grew up.

[ZenMaster]

As a Mechanical Engineer of your same age, (earning less than a quarter of what you have while being employed in one of the biggest companies in India) I do not have any specific advice to offer you other than the fact that you rich beyond belief at your age.

If I was earning 75Lakhs at this age, I wouldn't be bothered with shifting to the US. One can essentially live like a king in India with even 50lakhs.

You'd be essentially moving from a low/middle income country where you can live like a king with the company of your family, friends and even maids for support/help to a RICH country where you will be lower middleclass (especially in California). Between your mortgage, car payments, taxes and bills, you'd honestly have less (w.r.t. purchasing power) than you'd have in India.

If I had 75 lakhs, I'd be putting the money to work for me(investment), rather than working for more money, and building a strong foundation and start charting plans for my future businesses.

Considering that you earn this much, I pretty sure you have enough knowledge and intelligence to become your own boss in the future once you gain enough experience , rather than slaving for a consultancy in USA with perpetual anxiety about contract extension and what not.

Do not go there if you are chasing $$$. But if this would significantly boost your profile in your relevant field, help you gain specialised knowledge and you plan on coming back and settling in India, then its a worthwhile option I guess.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar

From what i have seen, majority of indians in US choose to upbring their kids with their indian middle class values and kids going through Gender identity crisis is US thing !!!

It probably says a lot about your thinking making such a statement. Some would argue that it is very worrisome gender identity is not a thing in India. And that it exists everywhere in every country in every culture. But is very much suppressed, ridiculed and sometimes even punishable. It’s all about perspective and how broad you adjust your own personal lens to view the world.

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar

. If indian upbringing was so bad, we would not have seen so many global CEO;s / CFO's / executives as indians.

If we go by percent population, given that India currently hold about 17-18% of the world population, one could argue Indians are hugely underrepresented in global c-positions.

Jeroen

[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar
. If indian upbringing was so bad, we would not have seen so many global CEO;s / CFO's / executives as indians.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

If we go by percent population, given that India currently hold about 17-18% of the world population, one could argue Indians are hugely underrepresented in global c-positions.

Jeroen

I think thats a bit flawed logic. For a global CEO position for a company like Google, Microsoft or Amazon would you consider everyone in the world or just US citizens? I think the 2nd option. What percentage of the population in the US is of Indian origin? 3-4% max? What percentage of Fortune 50 companies CEOs are of Indian origin?

Is it 3-4%? As far as I know its much higher.

[.sushilkumar]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

It probably says a lot about your thinking making such a statement. Some would argue that it is very worrisome gender identity is not a thing in India. And that it exists everywhere in every country in every culture. But is very much suppressed, ridiculed and sometimes even punishable. It’s all about perspective and how broad you adjust your own personal lens to view the world.

** Perhaps Offtopic for the thread**

Gender identity is not a problem per se. I am all for you it but it is for a consenting adult to decide not by a 10 years old kid & his school teachers or a random doctor in hospital.

A) Going against nature and introducing Hormone therapies to 10 & 11 years old kids & their parents having no Say in that therapy is the real problem.

B) There have been incidents of barely 10 years old being made to go through sex / porn literature with them being part of school curriculum.

C) speaking of own friend circle , colleagues kid got so educated in 2nd standard on his rights & 911 that he called them since his dad refused a ipad.Next his dad was dealing with child protection officers. He did send his son back in next flight back home in Chennai and was made to call 911 once they have cleared the immigration in india.

There are scores of incidents i can point but there are positives too . Of Course, in my personal opinion, negative far outweigh the positives

Originally Posted by Jeroen

If we go by percent population, given that India currently hold about 17-18% of the world population, one could argue Indians are hugely underrepresented in global c-positions.

Jeroen

Unfortunately Population is not the only criterio when appointing for C- positions. Original post was about a superior Upbringing in US and india.

[vj_torqueaddict]

As the OP has posted only about salary , and nothing about the work or company it is clear they are clearly looking monetary benefits only. I too feel it's not worth the move at 115k USD.

One has to look at intangible benefits when thinking about moving. For example: the job role, company exposure etc. if it's purely money then makes no sense to move continent for lesser pay in terms of PPP.

About India vs West debate, I agree with points put forth by members around clean air and streets. We are way behind on that front. Basic civic sense is lacking. Even with lot of money here , as soon as you step out you have to deal with what every common man deals with. Pathetic roads, polluted air, idiotic drivers , thugs and goons. Don't even get me started on women safety.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar
. If indian upbringing was so bad, we would not have seen so many global CEO;s / CFO's / executives as indians.



I think thats a bit flawed logic. For a global CEO position for a company like Google, Microsoft or Amazon would you consider everyone in the world or just US citizens? I think the 2nd option. What percentage of the population in the US is of Indian origin? 3-4% max? What percentage of Fortune 50 companies CEOs are of Indian origin?

Is it 3-4%? As far as I know its much higher.

It’s always good to see someone take my posts seriously!
But for global companies I certainly would not consider US companies only! That is way to limited world view. You need to add at least Japan, Most of Europe and these days probably some Middle East companies too.

Jeroen

[vishnurp99]

Originally Posted by dragonfire

Yet I see people queuing up at US embassies for a US visa and not the other way around. ....
Being raised as an American chances are better that the kid will end up becoming a better human being than in India

US has it's advantages. I don't know your background but I assume that you have lived in the US for many years and is making your statement based on that experience.

I wanted to share my perspective on this topic too.

I lived in the US from 2006-12 and have visited the country frequently after that. I currently live in Germany and have lived in India for a period of time before moving to Germany. I have seen a general degradation in the US quality of life with greater gun violence, political polarization, greater home prices, expensive higher education, drug menace, health care challenges & rotten public infrastructure & schools in places like NY over the last few years. Obviously if you are a multi-millionaire or work in Googles/Facebooks of the world drawing 250K+ salaries, you can throw money away at a lot of these problems but US is becoming a lot like India. With a trillion dollar annual debt payment and gradual erosion of the reserve status of the USD, the future doesn't look bright for the average american.
In many ways, Indian Americans are the new Brahmins of US or what Jews were in Germany before the holocaust. So there is also a lot of reverse discrimination against Indians in the name of affirmative action in higher education.

In comparison India is becoming better day by day. Obviously there is a lot of catch up to do but i have started observing in the past few years that some things have started working better in India in comparison to Europe & USA. I am talking about public digital infrastructure, payment services, general standard of hospitality at some of the tier 2 hotels, airports, roads etc. I have started seeing a small number of non-Indian CEOs actually relocating to India because this is the make or break market for the world over the next 10-15 years.

Unfortunately while Europe/German quality of life remains very high, I don't believe that Europe is going in the right direction because of it's demographic challenges and the total dominance/dependence on(depending on perspective) of USA.

All said & done, I don't see why you think that being raised in America would make any kid a better human being. We are talking about some of the best universities in the states becoming the laughing stock of the world because they couldn't make up their mind about whether calls for genocide of Jews should be banned in campus. USA also doesn't have moral high ground that i had around 20 years back when it was still a beacon of democracy. Virtue signalling has resulted in some atrocious behaviour from some well-meaning folks. This will only end up confusing the kids.

I saw a post about gender identity. How many of you would want your little girls to have a common changing room with boys who identify themselves as girls or neither? There is no easy answer to some of these questions but I don't think US is in a great place today.

All of this leads me to believe that USA is just another power today - one which seems to be on a declining trajectory. Being raised as an American doesn't really give a kid an automatic advantage in character formation or future prospects.

[PZK]

I wanted to write about the Gender Identity part in America but restrained myself. I think you don't fully appreciate the situation unless you have skin in the game. Here, the schools are voluntarily talking to your 10 year olds about gender identity and the options available to them. This is a very impressionable*age and some personalities make a far deeper impression than you and I can imagine. Should this decision not rest with their parents completely?

A 10 year old can't decide which movie to watch in this country, parental guidance is suggested. They can't sit in the front seat of the car till they reach age 12. However, the schools decided somehow that they can make a wise call about gender selection by displaying various options on the table. What a farce!!

This is a serious factor to consider when moving to USA, especially when you are a young parent. Once again, reiterating that you will fully appreciate this when you have skin in the game. i.e. have*your 10 year old boy/girl sit through these sessions or trying to opt out of these*situations.

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by dragonfire

…
You have a higher chance of dying in a road accident in India than dying in a school shooting in the US.
…
In the USA a riot means a mob attacks a few shops and torches some vehicles. In India it means thousands dead and a million displaced.

Let us not make this as a shining India vs dreamland America debate. It maybe still a land of opportunities, but the modern US is steadily losing its sheen, and many Americans are now moving to Western Europe, Asia Pacific etc.

Originally Posted by dragonfire

Being raised as an American chances are better that the kid will end up becoming a better human being than in India

This is a flawed statement. Growing up as a better human being depends on how one is shown the world as a child, and how s/he see the world as an adult. At least in my extended circle, I have not specifically noticed Americans standout as better human beings.

Originally Posted by PZK

I moved to USA about 2 years ago on L1A visa and can share my experience:

Pros:
1. School: Less stressful school for kids. "Pressure to succeed" is not omnipresent.

Cons:
2. Education: We miss DPS Gurgaon, the public school doesn't have even 10% of that rigor and academic focus and we stay in one of the best school districts.

The quoted points are kind of inter-related. In my opinion, the pro outweighs the con – the child will thank you in future for making his/her growing up years less stressful

[vij]

Originally Posted by dragonfire

Being raised as an American chances are better that the kid will end up becoming a better human being than in India

Thats a weird statement. Are you a 'better human being' after moving out? It may be a personal experience.

Also since you raised the "discrimination" thing - what you just said is pretty much discrimination/racism.

I think malice towards home nation stems purely from personal experiences. My brother-in-law was pretty much struggling in India (doing well abroad) and has poor opinion of India, whereas my sister was an outperformer both in India and Canada, she loves India and will not stand people talking ill of her motherland.

Another thing I noticed is Gen-z and young millennials have better self-confidence and pride(of their identity) than older folks.

[Chisels121]

To all people who think that children would have better education in the U.S, all I have to say that you are WRONG. Example: My aunt and uncle went to the U.S in the late 90's and left their daughter with uncle's parents as they didn't have stable jobs and my cousin grew up with her grandparents and ended up going to a tier 1 engineering college and now works at Google California. OTOH, my cousin brother who was born and brought up in the U.S had to give the medical exam three times and after a lot of drama went to a private med school. The thing is that the American schools are less stressful on students but the entrance exams are almost as tough as Indian ones because of foreign students applying and the stress are normally can't be handled by the American kids.

[DigitalOne]

Originally Posted by dragonfire

Being raised as an American chances are better that the kid will end up becoming a better human being than in India

Parents who think like this are not taking individual responsibility of their children's upbringing and just passing it on to the society. Sorry to be blunt about this.

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by DCEite

Sorry to be a little off topic, but I don't get this "better life" outside India concept at all.

Do you not get this concept after living with your family for some years in a developed country or is it only based on what you have heard from your contacts and the media?

Originally Posted by DCEite

Sorry to say, I see too many stories of depressed families, loneliness, racism hit Indian origin folks outside India and too many sad stories to believe blindly in the phrase "better life outside India", specially in 2024.

I presume you don’t see similar stories from India.

Thanks to the new direction the Indian government has taken in some areas, some people have new motives to leave in 2024 which didn't exist before.

Originally Posted by DCEite

In India itself the education standards have skyrocketed in the past few decades.

Our quality of life has increased immensely compared to say 90's or early 2k's.

Our highways are developing at a rapid pace and becoming world class.

The economic and job opportunities, specially considering entrepreneurship and ease of startup is incomparable to any other country in the world.

Yet, we have this age old belief (going on since the British Raj days), that the west has greener pastures.

It’s easy to use words like “skyrocketed”, “world class”, “incomparable”, “immensely” with no context and objective data to prove that India > USA (example of the developed west) in the specific areas you have pointed out. I could get into the weeds and point out the flaws in your argument or just simplify it by saying, a developed country/economy > developing country/emerging economy in providing more opportunities for a much larger proportion of their population. The former has solved many fundamental/structural economic and social issues which the latter is working harder and faster to resolve.

Developing nations are quite literally what they are, developing! Why do people act as if the developing nations have already developed (or got better than the developed nations!!) and the others haven’t got the memo?

It goes without saying that developed countries have their own issues and the developing countries will also inherit some of these issues when they eventually become developed. USA and Australia for example have their own unique issues as well.

Each family’s circumstances and objectives are different. People pick a country that offers their family the best environment to achieve their objectives. Guess what? It could be different countries for different stages of their lives!

Originally Posted by dragonfire

L1A = fast track to GC and citizenship. Your kids would have a better life ahead.

“..would have greater probability of having a better life ahead.” I hope that cools down some of the tension.

Originally Posted by dragonfire

Being raised as an American chances are better that the kid will end up becoming a better human being than in India[FONT=&quot]

IMHO it is better to avoid such generic statements man. This is the sort of thing that riles people up. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of anyone say Americans make better citizens or human beings in general.

I wish people travel more outside of India to form their opinions rather than be armchair critics based on hearsay a.k.a "YouTube played me a 100 videos on how bad the situation in the USA is. Glad I'm not there.".