[fuzzydealhunter]

haha I ams starting to find these videos on youtube hilarious. Looks like every country has some form of video showing why everyone is leaving. Like my marketing professor used to say, negative advertising is very powerful. I am assuming these videos are great for gathering clicks. Add to it the fact that since most successful immigrants wont have time to make videos, the negative narrative will always be more powerful.

Then again is it really bad? I guess these negative videos might help ground a lot of potential immigrants that show up to the country expecting a golden catapult that would get them a house and a car as soon as they exit the airport. I kid you not I was actually told by a prospective immigrating family this. When I told them this was not the case they refused to believe it and said I probably was not aware of the program . Maybe I got to follow up with them one of these days

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

I don't know how correct this is. I have a 10 year renewable residency permit, not linked to anything. In practice, it is not dissimilar to a US green card, which actually requires the holder to show up in the US every six months at least unlike my permit. However, the green card doesn't need renewal, but mine does.

That's great to know and good for you. I'm not very well informed on the Visa norms in the UAE. Are you referring to the Golden Visa? Would they renew the resident permit if the visa holder at some point in the future decides not to work or pulls out their investment from the UAE? I had a quick read and I wasn't too sure on how it works. Coincidentally this week my BIL mentioned that he's turning 60 next year but will continue to work in the UAE. His permit will be renewed every 12 months after that. He's working there for more than two decades. In the future he can choose the "Residence visa for the retired" but then, that does have conditions like a property/savings of AED 1M or minimum monthly income. While the pathway is there, it is a five-year visa. For context, that's the scenario I referred in my post. Can I be certain that I and my family can live in this country without uncertainty on my visa renewal? In that sense, IMHO this isn't really a permanent resident program similar to the what Australia or Canada offer.

My personal observation is that the GCC region became collateral damage in the overzealous attempts to show it to be better than Canada for all the wrong reasons! I hope we've seen the end of that misery

Originally Posted by sandeepmohan

My comments are specifically for New Zealand. We've been living here since April 2017.

Life has been great for our son. In fact, I'd go to the extent of saying our close knit friends are parents whom we met at school. This is our social circle. We engage in school events too. Parents volunteer, participate if the school needs help during events. Had it not been for our sons school, life would be quite different. The school has become our family. We are Thankful for this.

Great post. I sincerely wish that we get to read more of such useful content in this thread.

I can relate to everything you mentioned and our experience has been similar too. For context, our daughter started primary school in Australia and that helped her and us a lot in forming friendships.

Volunteering at the school is so underrated. We volunteered a lot during the initial years and that gave us access to the teachers, window into life at school, other parents, understand the context of what our daughter tells she is doing at school etc. Same goes for children team sports (Soccer, Netball, Hockey etc.). Go volunteer to participate in the community.

One of my daughter's friend's dad invited me to join the Dad's book club. I usually fall asleep if I read a book to my daughter. Books are way out of my comfort zone but I left my comfort zone and joined a bunch of ten other dads to read books! The book we chose every month to read is really just the topic for the month. We get to meet at the local waterhole/a Dad's home every 6 weeks to discuss the book and pretty much everything except $. My knowledge about Australia's past, present and future was kind of accelerated because of this mateship. I've read/listened to 60+ books in 7 years and my parents must be proud, finally. I was also able to provide them a view of my life in India which always fascinates them. Be ready to leave your comfort zone to get new experiences.

I love to drive and passionate about cars. I'm part of Australia's most diverse driver's club and it will be an understatement to say that it wouldn't be possible to enjoy driving my WRX the way I do without this club. Have an interest/passion/hobby to find your tribe.

I saw some posts about the use of non-english language. I work in IT and my role involves managing people. I have a very simple and effective rule. I will not talk in any language other than English at the workplace. If people do talk to me in the Indian regional language then, I politely tell them that I do not converse in that language inside the office and I'm happy to do that outside and they understand that. During office parties, events, drinks, walk the room and don't sit in your own table with people from your Indian State/Region. I can tell you from experience that such small steps help to build trust and friendships too. Be professional at the workplace and that includes the language you use.

Quit/Purge some time wasting old WA/social groups. Make time for the new by giving up some of the old.

P.S:
I've done all the above and yet, I haven't had the opportunity to have a meaningful/long conversation with Australia's First Nations people. I haven't come across them at my work or personal circle. This in my opinion is an irony of sorts. I mean, I'm talking about assimilation without having spoken to people from one of the world's oldest continuing culture in the planet.

[Imran.Syed]

Originally Posted by kiku007

My personal observation is that the GCC region became collateral damage in the overzealous attempts to show it to be better than Canada for all the wrong reasons! I hope we've seen the end of that misery

Well, I believe people mistook me or did not read my previous posts on this thread.
GCC can never be > Canada in the long term. That's just not possible. Canada is shaky at the moment but it is still democratic and using just that measure, it is a good long term play.

My advise was and will always be essentially to use GCC as a springboard to Western nations and that too JUST in this cost of living crisis phase of 2023 - possibly 2025. If this were 2019 - moving to GCC - mostly would've been a "waste of time" according to me unless the money was too high to say no to.

I have spoken to some people who newly migrated to Canada in 70's - 80's during the last major cost of living crisis this country faced. All of them describe it as painful, very painful. Eventually some returned back to their home countries and waited it out, some got jobs in countries not affected much by inflation only to come back to Canada later.. and some just waited it out in Canada with not knowing how to financially afford their next day's meal.
In the end, net net, it was very positive for everybody who was inside Canada once the inflation and interest rate started cooling off.

There are certain types of individual to whom I have advised to come to Canada even today. But for the vast majority non-IT white collar people like me who still want to come here.. they have *delayed* their plans by 2-3 years.

---

Moving on, somebody posted CHATGPT's response of what is emigration and suggested that it is not possible to do that in GCC. Well.. maybe try asking ChatGPT if its possible or not before schooling others on meaning of words.
It is absolutely possible to do it.

To enlighten people-
Saudi Arabia: "Premium Residency" Visas that you can buy for one time 213k usd fee or 26k usd yearly fee (renewable). With this you can at least buy a property for your own residency as well as investment and have the freedom of being your own sponsor. Your wife and children get the visas as well. No retirement but visa does not roll over to your wife/kids.

Qatar: Live 25 years consecutively in Qatar and preferably be born in there.. Gets you the citizenship. Only path to citizenship in the region.

UAE: Golden visa, retirement vias, etc., etc.

AFAIK GCC countries do not have a retirement plan for expats. After the retirement age, Saudi Arabia doubles its per year expat fees and that's why companies send people back.. to avoid paying two employee's worth of fees for just one.
I know people who are highly needed in their roles and are well into their 70s who are still working inside Saudi legally. However these are outliers.

Summary: It is possible to emigrate.. but I don't believe it is not worth the effort or money IMO. Hence I never posted it here. Please refer to my previous post on GCC's atrocities as to why I don't think it's worth it. Adding to that, before the oil runs out it is likely fresh water will go first. Either way, not an ideal place to be when the going gets tough.

---


Moving on again, I will likely leave Canada around this time next year if things keep progressing the way there are. Rate of Inflation ticked up last month in Canada directly as a result of the BOC's measure of cooling inflation by raising interest rates. Economically, Canada is effectively stuck in between a rock and a hard place aka Stagflation. I predicted this would happen but I shudder to think of the consequences if my complete prediction is proven right. I have never wanted to be so wrong in my life.

Some people I know plan to leave at least temporarily by the end of current school session or December of this year. Their reasoning is that they expect a mass immigration to GCC/India from Can/Aus/EU which means competition for jobs/opportunities will only keep going up so they want some kind of a first mover advantage.
I have friends from neighbor countries of India and they are all very jealous of the privilege Indians have of moving back to India with same or much better financial prospects because its much worse than Canada back home for them. Gives me some personal satisfaction even though I will not be returning to India.

My personal plans with Canada are.. well.. Unless I decide to get an MBA, I have decided to put a pause on Canada for now. Will I return? Absolutely. But I am not sitting here and dealing with the painful affordability crisis which looks like it will get worse before it gets better. Till the time I am here though, I have forced myself to enjoy Canada.

@Viper
Kudos to you for saying the things nobody wants to hear.

[hdus001]

Originally Posted by Imran.Syed

I will likely leave Canada around this time next year if things keep progressing the way there are.

You might be already aware but in case you're not, one thing to consider is, if you do intend to work in GCC in the future, it may pay to stick it out in Canada for a few more years untill you get your citizenship, as your pay in the GCC very much depends on your citizenship. You could well be getting 2-3 times what an Indian passport could get you.

[dragracer567]

Given that I've had the privilege/curse of having to move countries every 2-3 years and having lived in 9 countries (moved 11 times since I moved to UAE & Saudi twice), I think I can give a decent overview of the pros & cons of some places. GCC & EU are not monoliths but I'm going to lump them due to lack of time, will elaborate on individual countries in the GCC & EU later. Might be useful for folks thinking of emigrating:

India (for those moving back)

Pros

• Close to family/friends.
• Your life will almost surely be better than your parents'.
• Fast-growing economy - can be part of an incredible growth story.
• Cultural/religious reasons for some folks.
• Traveling paradise.

Cons

• Polluted cities.
• Women's safety & persistent sexism.
• Less value for human life in general.
• Difficult for people with liberal mindsets, especially in smaller towns.

GCC (lived in all countries except Qatar)

Pros

• A short & mostly cheap flight away from home.
• No income tax.
• You can survive with just Malayalam & Hindi.
• Insanely high salaries if you are one of the lucky ones.
• Generally safe.
• You don't need immigration points to move here.
• Full of CBSE schools teaching Indian curriculum.
• Little Indias, there are more Indian restaurants than Arabic restaurants in the UAE - that too genuine Indian food, not the fake ones you get in the UK.
• Car paradise, used V8s available for the cost of a Dzire.
• Full of desis, no question of integration.

Cons

• You lose your job/run out of visa, you are out! V1p3r & Imran gave the exceptions.
• Unfriendly/insulated locals (except Bahrain & Oman).
• Workers' rights are terrible.
• Confusing legal system. Cops can pick you up arbitrarily if you are a Pakistani/Bangladeshi (but not for Indians thankfully).
• Rules change arbitrarily, including immigration rules.
• Rental & phone contracts generally cannot be terminated before the end of the term (it varies though).
• Entry-level salaries are terrible.
• Income based on skin colour and passport than your actual skills.
• Many highly skilled industries aren't really present here as in the West or even in India.
• Economic growth highly dependent on boom & bust cycles of oil prices.
• Keep your views on religion or monarchy to yourself.

EU (Lived in Belgium & Spain, visited most others. Some maybe applicable to the UK as well)

Pros

• Highly developed economies with scope for highly skilled jobs. Also economies are not as dependent on natural resources as in Canada & Australia.
• Quick and friendly bureaucracies (only in Northern Europe (- France)).
• Excellent public transport for the most part, countries interconnected with high-speed bullet trains.
• Heavy emphasis on workers' rights and human rights (never mind the historical hypocrisies).
• Travelers paradise if you are into history & culture. EU is basically another India in this respect (though some may disagree).
• You can eventually call these countries home.
• Very well-developed welfare systems - perhaps the best in the world.
• Liberal countries if that's important for you.
• Least sexism you'll face anywhere in the world (but still there).
• Strong passports for traveling.
• Oozing with a certain type of old culture, unlike the settler Western countries.
• Laidback lifestyle (Germany might be an exception).

Cons

• Eyewatering income tax levels.
• Language can be an issue. Even in those with high English literacy levels, you'll need local language competency to integrate & also for citizenship.
• Depending on the country, very high taxes on cars + road tax + high energy costs, so you'll really have to consider if you need a car.
• As a highly skilled immigrant, you'll almost surely pay more in taxes than get back as welfare unless something goes wrong with your health for example.
• Terrible bureaucracy in Southern European countries will make you miss India.
• Racism - I didn't actually face anything surprisingly but many of my friends did.
• Sorry to say but some cities like Brussels seem to be decaying. Smaller cities are nicer!
• Declining economies - unlike even other Western countries like Canada, Australia & the US. Some are still dynamic like The Netherlands, Denmark, Czech Republic (albeit poorer) and Sweden.
• Disturbing trend of countries moving towards extreme politics as they decline.

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by Imran.Syed

Well, I believe people mistook me or did not read my previous posts on this thread.

You might want to rethink if that's what really happened.

22-Apr-23:

Originally Posted by Imran.Syed

This is a post and a stern warning about anyone wanting to move to CANADA. RUN AWAY FROM IT!!!

WEATHER is the least painful thing you will have to put up with!

This country is a huge ponzi scheme. Migrants Beware!!

...99% of the people who immigrate here CANNOT wait to leave after that passport, either to USA or back home.

22-May-23:

Originally Posted by Imran.Syed

GCC can never be > Canada in the long term. That's just not possible. Canada is shaky at the moment but it is still democratic and using just that measure, it is a good long term play.

Originally Posted by Imran.Syed

Moving on, somebody posted CHATGPT's response of what is emigration and suggested that it is not possible to do that in GCC. Well.. maybe try asking ChatGPT if its possible or not before schooling others on meaning of words.
It is absolutely possible to do it.

To enlighten people-

Summary: It is possible to emigrate.. but I don't believe it is not worth the effort or money IMO. Hence I never posted it here. Please refer to my previous post on GCC's atrocities as to why I don't think it's worth it. Adding to that, before the oil runs out it is likely fresh water will go first. Either way, not an ideal place to be when the going gets tough.

I am that somebody.

In the following post (which is above your most recent post) I have explained the context of what I meant when I said GCC countries don't have a pathway to permanent residency.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shift...ml#post5551533 (Emigrating to a Foreign Land!)

In your attempts to enlighten others on the possibility to get permanent resident visas in the GCC region I think you have inadvertently only helped to confirm what I had mentioned in my initial post.

If you are using Qatar's residency program, that requires the overseas born applicant to have lived in Qatar for 20 years among other conditions to prove that I'm wrong then, I sure well am wrong man. You are splitting hairs to prove your point and I give up.

Originally Posted by Imran.Syed

Adding to that, before the oil runs out it is likely fresh water will go first. Either way, not an ideal place to be when the going gets tough.

Your understanding of the world amazes me. I'll just leave this here and wish you good luck.

[JediKnight]

Originally Posted by Turbohead

You're right that it does not exist any longer in the younger generation but people in their 40s still practice it very much and

Originally Posted by ashwin1224

At the risk of going grossly OT, this statement is simply not true. Casteism still exists and thrives. It may not show up as it used to in the olden (golden?) days, yet its transformed into a different kind of beast.

Originally Posted by v1p3r

You must be joking. Or let me guess, you are unaffected by this. Here is a study on Bangalore's caste segregation by neighbourhood -

The point I am making is we are heading in the right direction and making rapid progress. In two-three generations caste system may exist on the peripheries but it will become irrelevant.

We are an ancient society and many societal evils have crept in. But we have recognized it as an evil and are trying to fix it. That is important. We are actually better than many so called progressive nations. Introspection is good but self damage by focusing on the negative it not.

Originally Posted by dragracer567

Cons

• Women's safety & persistent sexism.
• Difficult for people with liberal mindsets, especially in smaller towns.

Surprising you don't find these cons in GCC countries ?

[Imran.Syed]

Originally Posted by kiku007

In your attempts to enlighten others on the possibility to get permanent resident visas in the GCC region I think you have inadvertently only helped to confirm what I had mentioned in my initial post.

Ahhh, look I think you are right about me splitting hair. I was annoyed by the Chatgpt copy-paste to explain what emigration means, so that really ticked me off. My summarized response is basically what you are saying too.

Your understanding of the world amazes me. I'll just leave this here and wish you good luck.

Allow me to elaborate but not for the sake of an argument please. Will be OT but overall it will give readers my perspective of things.

Somebody posted here that GCC folks will return to camel herding when the oil runs out. (very typical LOL)
The water running out first can be explained by my experience of growing up there, in the not the most amazing of neighborhoods wherever we went.
GCC is severely water stressed, especially Saudi Arabia.
In the not so distant past, municipal water would run very irregularly, sometimes even once every two weeks. They fixed this only recently with desalination plants. On top of that, Saudi Arabia has effectively lost a major chunk of their aquifer as they pursued some questionable ideas of agricultural farming for decades.
I was sent for an assignment to a town in rural Saudi Arabia and I could not believe the water quality from an illegal bore well and the depth was some ridiculously high number for the elevation of the town.
In contrast, generally if we travel to remote towns, the general belief is that water quality and depth gets better, so it was quite a discovery for me to realize how bad things were.
How this effects the expats? Well, most Indian expats are in low/mid skill level roles in Saudi Arabia. What the government is now doing is migrating the unskilled citizens of towns and rural areas and filling them up in the entry level jobs that expats used to dominate.
It does not effect me directly, but the plight of people who got laid off from this was heartbreaking. Thankfully there is still time and enough opportunities to move around in the GCC.

But to talk about the tough times in Saudi the most recent one was 2014 - 2019 (till 2022 for some countries).
It is brutal. Jobs are wiped out, families are uprooted and sent back, and people lose their identity. On top of that, because the economy so direly depends on government funding, job losses happen almost every where all at once. During such times, it would not be far fetched to think that GCC experiences a deflationary period.
Everyone must've heard that many Indians in 40s or 50s got their wealth wiped out in UAE property market in 2008 and were forced to leave. I know a BITS Pilani Civil Engineer who was amongst those and he was scarred for life. To this day he is still not the same. But the property prices are more than what they were in 2008's peak. Will he ever go back? No.

I would use the boom the GCC is in now and leave when its bursting. Come back to Canada perhaps.

---

I went back and read my first post from a month ago. The one thing I would change is that I would not call it a Ponzi scheme, but a pyramid scheme. Whatever it is, I have stopped thinking about it. I, like this country, am pushing the can down the road.

Originally Posted by hdus001

You might be already aware but in case you're not, one thing to consider is, if you do intend to work in GCC in the future, it may pay to stick it out in Canada for a few more years untill you get your citizenship, as your pay in the GCC very much depends on your citizenship. You could well be getting 2-3 times what an Indian passport could get you.

MODS: Please merge posts. Thank you!

Yes I am aware but can you elaborate please? I have only heard about this but never personally met or spoke to somebody who experienced this. Is this in all the fields or just IT or Engineering?

Do you know someone who was able to move out from GCC, change citizenship and come back to a much higher paying job/salary?
If you can give some first-hand examples, it will be a massive relief to me because before coming here I was told the same thing and I never questioned it because it sounded so logical. But now that I question the same people, it turns out they heard this from somebody else who also heard it somewhere.

@dragracer- Do you have any pointers about this? My work experience is not as vast as yours..

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by JediKnight

Surprising you don't find these cons in GCC countries ?

Well,

1) These countries are exceptionally safe for women for the large part, even compared to many Western countries. These are police states which has its own problems but increased safety is a byproduct. Regarding sexism, it depends since everyone stays within their own social group and there is very little mingling between groups. So, an Indian woman would find about as much sexism as expected from Indian society, same for Western and Arab Women.

2) Generally it doesn't matter what you believe. There is no Freedom of Expression, so you'd just keep your opinions to yourself. That said, except Saudi, there is generally no policing of cloths apart from gender-neutral guidelines in some malls outside the UAE and you won't have vigilantes beating you up for going out with a lady friend on valentines day (though the closely knit Indian community will do its own moral policing). Again, issues persist, wouldn't say better than India, just a different set of problems.

Originally Posted by hdus001

You might be already aware but in case you're not, one thing to consider is, if you do intend to work in GCC in the future, it may pay to stick it out in Canada for a few more years untill you get your citizenship, as your pay in the GCC very much depends on your citizenship. You could well be getting 2-3 times what an Indian passport could get you.

Originally Posted by Imran.Syed

@dragracer- Do you have any pointers about this? My work experience is not as vast as yours..

That's absolutely possible. I personally know a couple of people who did it. The salary pyramid goes like this:

Brown skin, Indian passport, Indian degree < Brown skin, Indian passport, Western degree < Brown skin, Western passport, Western degree < White skin, Western passport, Western degree.

So, I come in the second-last category, hence somewhat privileged. Keep in mind that even with a Western passport, you'd still be paid less than a white guy.

PS: I can't believe how we are literally discussing how racism can get you better salaries in the Gulf can't even imagine this in the West or even India! This is a terrible system, guys!

[fuzzydealhunter]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

Brown skin, Indian passport, Indian degree < Brown skin, Indian passport, Western degree < Brown skin, Western passport, Western degree < White skin, Western passport, Western degree.

I can't believe how we are literally discussing how racism can get you better salaries in the Gulf can't even imagine this in the West or even India! This is a terrible system, guys!

100% agreed. I cant imagine doing all the hard work to end up becoming a second-class citizen based on colour of your skin. I guess its one of those things that dont matter when you are well off or have the right connections or run in the right circles.

[hdus001]

Originally Posted by Imran.Syed

Yes I am aware but can you elaborate please? I have only heard about this but never personally met or spoke to somebody who experienced this. Is this in all the fields or just IT or Engineering?

Yes, it's a widely known thing that salaries are directly related to your passport. A terrible system, but hey I'm just a messenger. It's widely talked about in many immigration forums. In addition to this salary discrimination sometimes higher-level roles are only made available to people with Western passports.

I can count myself as an example. Earlier this year after a lengthy interview process I was offered a role at an airline in Dubai. The salary offered was about 2.5 times what an ex-collegemate doing a similar role in the same company was making. He had been with the company for over 5 years and worked previously in the USA and several parts of Europe, however still has an Indian passport. To be fair, not completely an apple-to-apple comparison, as his grade there was one lower than the one offered to me - this one is an example of the preference of Western passport holders for certain grades and higher, as he has very similar work experience as me.

The money on offer, if tax-free, would have been about 1.7 times my after-tax income in Australia. I ended up declining the offer, as my particular circumstances mean that I would be categorised as a Tax Resident by the Australian tax office (even when living overseas) and therefore have to pay tax on the foreign income, which combined with a few other factors made it not that desirable.

[venuvedam]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

Brown skin, Indian passport, Indian degree < Brown skin, Indian passport, Western degree < Brown skin, Western passport, Western degree < White skin, Western passport, Western degree.

Love this insight. Where does "Brown skin, Western Passport, Indian degree" fit into this equation? (That's my situation)

[McLaren Rulez]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

I can't believe how we are literally discussing how racism can get you better salaries in the Gulf can't even imagine this in the West or even India! This is a terrible system, guys!

Considering that there might be some people genuinely on the fence about emigrating to the GCC, this sort of insight is very useful.

Economies change a lot faster than people's mindsets.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by venuvedam

Love this insight. Where does "Brown skin, Western Passport, Indian degree" fit into this equation? (That's my situation)

Western passport certainly has more value than a western degree. Educational qualifications seem to be less important in the Gulf than in the West except for the Visa processes for which you've to get your degrees attested (or get your visa issued in a lowly profession)!

[hdus001]

From what I learned,
1. Ethnicity (Emiratis >> Westerners >> Non-emirati arabs > Indians/Chinese > Filipinas/Pakistani)
2. Passport (Western > Non-western)

BTW this discrimination is not just about jobs, apparently, this happens in housing too, there are even areas that only locals can buy property in (google freehold vs non-freehold). Similarly, you wouldn't see many instances of the local emiratis especially women marrying/dating and welcoming you into their family.

All in all, to me it sounds like the kind of place where you might go to make a quick buck and come back home to retire, rather than a place you can call home, feel welcomed in, feel treated equal to locals etc.