[Jeroen]

I have said this before, but I will repeat it again. The most successful immigrants are those that chose a specific country because they believe it will suit them long term. I am not talking about illegal immigrants or even legal immigrants on the run for whatever reason.

But those who immigrate purely for more money are unlikely to be satisfied. Moving abroad requires a broad mindset and leaving all your conventions behind. If you move to a different country, don’t hook up with Indians. Try, whatever it takes to become part of the local community. Of course, you should have done your research and make sure you really appreciate what the local culture is, what people do, apart from work.

I know that might not be on everybody’s mind on this forum. I appreciate getting ahead is important. But do think through what getting ahead really means to you. If it is just monetary gains, I think you will be waistline a lot of time.

Moving abroad is about making some very fundamental chances in your day to day life! If you move without adjusting, you are just going to be the next Indian, perhaps successful financially and careerist, but are you and your loved ones happy and content in your new home country?

To often I have seen Indians moves and not integrate at all in local society. They cling to Indian friends and Indian customs and neglect the customs and traditions in their new home country.

I don’t have the key to immigration succes, just read the statistics.

Jeroen

[dpaul]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

To often I have seen Indians moves and not integrate at all in local society. They cling to Indian friends and Indian customs and neglect the customs and traditions in their new home country.

This, I believe sums up the difference between a happy migration and an unhappy one.

I have seen this in three specific cases in my friend circle, lets name them A, B & C. All three of them moved to Australia. Out of the three, 'A' had only Australian (non-Indian) friends. 'B' had a circle comprising Australian (non-Indian) friends and few Indians. Whereas 'C' clinged to the Indian diaspora there and hardly interacted, apart from work, with the locals.

From what I inferred, A & B were the most happy whereas C felt that he was compromising for the sake of a better future for the future generations.

Side note: My friend 'A' has returned to settle in our hometown reluctantly to look after the family business since he is the only child and parents were averse to moving with him.

Regards.

[Imran.Syed]

Originally Posted by fuzzydealhunter

Again I am starting to get a little tired of the negativity here, especially when you are in Canada enjoying all of what they have to offer and only speak ill of it. No one is holding you hostage. You are free to leave. I had a couple of threads back offered to chat and see if I can help in any way but nada. Starting to feel like this is a classic example of someone only focusing on the negative.

No my friend, I got busy with moving, so I forgot to text you. Please check your inbox and thank you for reminding me.

About moving out, I am not going to be out before the end of this year anyway due to some familial commitments I have here.

You and others however might mistake my criticism of Canada for downright hatred. I do not hate Canada.
The good parts of Canada are really good. I have the freedom of movement, to do whatever I want and having moved from a Oil-rich Middle Eastern Country, that feels very freeing. Plus I thought I could make this country home, something I will never be able to do in the GCC despite having being born and brought up there.
My criticism of Canada is more of a personal heartbreak. It breaks my heart to not be able to see a good viable future in this country and not just for me, but for the millions of others who are fooled by the Canadian Dream. It breaks my heart how ruined and broken this country is and how accelerated that ruining has become. If it were economically possible, I’d happily live here for the rest of my life. I am sad that so much potential is going to waste here.
If I had the head-in-sand mentality that so many Canadians and people around me have, I probably would have continued living here happily. I wish sometimes that I was not so aware.

And yes, the problems of Canada can be washed, rinsed, repeated in all of the anglosphere. Some people recently asked me if not Canada, then where? Hence the reason for my previous post. Fortunately or unfortunately, I, like you, come from having lived in countries with better work life balance than India. I in fact grew up in a Middle Eastern country and Indian work culture still scares me haha.
My only reason for writing these lengthy posts during my little free time is to update people on the ground reality of things from a perspective of most newcomers, and we do not have a voice out on the internet. Like Androdev said, the information out there is very outdated or very skewed towards being too positive, coming from people who have business interests in bringing more people to Canada. Example: The videos people make on youtube (vloggers) earn money by garnering more views and ad revenue by marketing only positives of Canada, the consultants on youtube make money by increasing their business, the real estate agents by increasing their potential clientele.
The silent majority of people who suffer or get fooled are invisible on social media. They are too busy working, paying taxes and making ends meet. I want to paint a realistic and practical picture, not gate keep people from coming here.

W.r.t. Corruption, Iin Canada, you’ll simply be left waiting. Anything real-estate related work is extremely snail pace and marred with red tape here and that is by design. Canada has corruption too, just maybe not at the level of India.

Originally Posted by dpaul

From what I inferred, A & B were the most happy whereas C felt that he was compromising for the sake of a better future for the future generations.

I have made active friendships with native Canadians of diverse ages and there are two types. The extremely happy ones who at least own their one house and are nearing the end of their loan term, and the extremely disgruntled ones who are renting or living with their parents and won't be able to own anything and are massively frustrated.
The third type of whom I have only heard are people who are not aware enough.
Both the disgruntled and the happy want to move out (or to a very remote area within Canada) to afford a life and house or retirement respectively.

For everybody:
This video from a high earning IT employee from Russia and its comments and the link to the book this guy has written basically sums up everything out there:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlKbssRy5aM

Even I used to smirk and ignore criticisms like this guy has made before moving here. You dont have to agree or find it suitable to your situation, but please listen carefully and maybe even go through comments. After this, maybe go to instagram or talk to the youth of India/Russia/Ukraine/China who came here as international students or new PRs from 2018+ about the reality of the situation in 2023.

I haven't bought the book because I am already experiencing it myself. But to anyone in my circle who will be asking me about Canadian immigration, I will force them to read this book. Its only 800rs, so I'll probably even buy it for them and save them from the world of adequate or complete misinformation out there.

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by Imran.Syed

GCC countries
US
ASEAN Countries
Scandinavian nations
Other EU nations
Australia
Canada

Best option for growth: India
Best option for high income prospects with bearable costs and peace: GCC

That’s an interesting list. Based on your experience, Canada at the rock-bottom is expected but US is there almost on the top! Many of those negatives you listed later for Canada are pretty much the same for the US as well.

I feel there is a strong case of expectation v/s reality here. Many years back I stayed in Bangalore for an year and I absolutely hated the place. Back then, for many young Keralites, Bangalore was the place to be in, vibrant city, cool climate and what not. And once landed there the scene was very different for me. From the home comforts I was planted in this city where I was living in shared accommodation, minimum pay, not getting accustomed to the climate and so on; the negatives were just endless. Around 2010 I visited the place again, and then I realized that the feeling I had 10 years back were quite pointless. The city was the same – a few more flyovers and traffic chaos, but what I felt for the place was very different from my earlier stint. And thinking deep into that I realized that the problem was more with me, my expectations back then, and the miniscule emotional resilience I had as someone in his early 20s. Now when I look back at my initial stay in Bangalore, those memories pops up as ‘good memories’. It took a few years for me to realize that the problem was me/my situation at that time, and not the city.

If someone ask me about moving to a different city/country, my response will be always to think of why s/he want to make that move. In my opinion, relocating somewhere just for financial/economic gains is more like a thing of the past. Now the opportunities to grow financially in India is not so different than rest of the world. But if you are looking for a different experience that doesn’t compromise on your financial goals/security and helps you to grow/enrich as a person, make that move.

Originally Posted by Imran.Syed

The videos people make on YouTube (vloggers) earn money by garnering more views and ad revenue by marketing only positives of Canada, the consultants on YouTube make money by increasing their business, the real estate agents by increasing their potential clientele.

Those vloggers who paint a good picture of Canada need not be always paid endorsements. Probably their experience fall into the opposite side of your experiences – just like two sides of a coin.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

The most successful immigrants are those that chose a specific country because they believe it will suit them long term.

This is absolutely true!

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Imran.Syed

No my friend, I got busy with moving, so I forgot to text you. Please check your inbox and thank you for reminding me. ....
You and others however might mistake my criticism of Canada for downright hatred. I do not hate Canada....

Dear Mr Imran Syed,

This post from my side is not about immigration or Canada. It is about etiquette on this forum i.e. Team BHP. This thread is a help thread on Emigration issues, information, support needed, clarification etc. And it has helped several members who each for his/her own unique reason chose to go down the emigration path.

Member @fuzzydealhunter in all sincerity offered his hand to assist by sharing what he knows. That is so characteristic of this and many such threads on Team BHP. We help. This thread is not a place to vent your fury on fellow members. I don't know @fuzzydealhunter but he acted in good faith and your acerbic and hateful comments back are untoward and utterly uncalled for regardless of what your opinion of Canada is. I think you owe him an apology. He and others on this thread are not the source of your difficulties in Canada nor were they responsible for getting you there. So please stay within the lines of decorum of our forum. We are not yet another mill of the run social media site.

As readers of this thread know I am a cranky old man who doesn't think too highly of emigration. But we have to respect those who offer genuine well thought through advice and offers to assist.

Do not cross the line of decency. Thank you.

V.Narayan

[androdev]

I don't see anything offensive in Imran's post. In fact, I learned a great deal from his posts. It offers a fresh perspective. The replies, to be honest, are in bad taste (some replies have been deleted by the mods) and same-old "try harder", "mismatched expectations" without acknowledging the fundamental issue - crazy inflation that's really hurting new immigrants or those who have not invested in a house at the right time. I know many people who decided not to buy a house for many reasons and not due to financial indiscipline - who are earning excellent salaries - complain a lot about housing situation and I thought they were just nitpicking until I read Imran's post and did some research myself to understand just how severe it is.

If you can't afford to rent or buy a good place that you feel you rightfully deserve can be extremely frustrating. I am 100% certain that people who don't get this simple emotion are financially very comfortable and taking a position of "let them eat cake".

Many young people who migrate are not doing so to "integrate", "acquire new culture", or make new friends. If anything, they are extremely happy with the friends, family and culture back home and they are willing to sacrifice all this just to improve their financial situation. Immigrating with the singular goal of improving financial situation is not to be looked down up on. Having a sense of belonging, staying connected to your roots, preserving what you believe is the right culture, wanting to be around with people of your ethnicity has somehow become a trait to be ridiculed.

In Bangalore, I see many residential communities where multiple families from western countries are residing and they always stick together and socialise together. Their national embassies go to great lengths to create opportunities to help them connect and socialise. If there are more of them, I can assure you they would be having their own exclusive neighbourhoods. I have no issues with it. I have issue with the hypocrisy of so called free society/free choice that doesn't like immigrants who choose to preserve their culture, language and so on while abiding by all the laws and greatly contributing to the economy.

The strongest driver for migration from India has been financial benefits. With many parents who are doing well in India who created a stable foundation/base for kids to thrive, I really wonder whether such young people need to migrate at all. The narrative was very different 20 years back. While I agree that the ceiling for success is very high in those countries but that doesn't apply to a vast majority of the youth going there. Some are leaving behind a very comfortable life (own house, good jobs, parents and extended family) only to regret later because once you are married with kids, etc. it's not possible to come back. Nobody admits this in public forums for others to learn, you only read about the success and happiness. The immigration narrative has remained the same for so many years, totally out of sync with the ground realities of all the changes that have taken place in the last 30 years.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by androdev

I don't see anything offensive in Imran's post. In fact, I learned a great deal from his posts. It offers fresh perspective.

Androdev, Thank you for your inputs. I always enjoy reading your posts and the unique perspectives you so often provide. Here I believe we are talking on two parallel tracks. I'm not even referring to what his views or experiences of Canada have been or whether it is a worthy place to emigrate or not. My opening sentence stated that. I am referring to the attitude of belligerence he is displaying towards a fellow member who offered his experience and extended a helping hand. Address the issue don't attack the writer just because his experience has been 180 degrees opposite - that is one message I'm trying to get across to Imran Syed. That I believe and I may be wrong goes against the ethos of the thread. Of course, I might be completely wrong being generally behind the times on the unspoken norms of social media. What I wrote has nothing to do with Canada or his experience or whether it is a great or lousy place or whether Indians socializing together is a good sign or not. :-)

[kushagra452]

Dear BHPians, I am based in Delhi and hold a Canadian PR card. I got the PR card in March 2020 (just before the Covid lockdown). The card is valid till March 2025.

Since I will not be able to complete the mandatory 2 yrs in Canada, my PR card will most likely not be renewed/extended. I have written to IRCC (Canadian immigration) requesting waiving off the minimum 2 yrs requirement because of Covid related lockdown and travel restrictions. I have not received a reply.

The question in my mind is whether it is worth landing in Canada now. Additionally, reading about the high cost of living, initial struggle and other immigration related issues are making me question, planning a move to Canada.

[warrioraks]

Originally Posted by Imran.Syed

This video from a high earning IT employee from Russia and its comments and the link to the book this guy has written basically sums up everything out there:
https://www.Youtube.com/watch?v=OlKbssRy5aM

Thank you for sharing this video. I was really sceptical about the content initally.
So on a whim, called up a friend who had recently immigrated to Canada just a few months back. What I heard was truly shocking. He is planning to return back to India very soon and the the challenges are very similar to the one highlighted in this video. Now my friend is a guy who was very keen to move out of India, has been trying for the last 4-5 years, landed an offer with a highly reputed MNC in a mid management role in Canada and has spent almost year's saving in the process to migrate. So the intent of this person is not in question.

People who are chasing the Canadaian dream might want to do good amount of due diligence before taking the plunge.

[hothatchaway]

The problem with Canadian immigration is its flagship Express Entry system. Its a points based system which rewards applicants for proficiency demonstrated in English/French, educational background, '"skilled" work experience, age (younger the better) and relatives in land. In theory this is perfect since it seemingly attracts the best and the brightest. So what is the problem? You discover that the same attributes that lets you enter Canada is rendered useless when you start pounding the pavements in search of a job. I have met folks who are Master's grads who are fluent in English and with years of relevant work experience in a white collar job in India waiting for months to receive even one interview call. The situation is dire post CoVID, even survival jobs as waiting tables and washing dishes are hard to come by. The unofficial norm for landed immigrants is to eke out a living for six months at least, before even dreaming of landing a job in their field of expertise. Even this will be at a lower level and seniority will be compromised. Not because one lacks the requisite skills, but because of some nebulous concept called "Canadian experience"' Those in tech may find the going easier. But then again if you are good at coding and solving tech problems, you will command a higher market premium in India with better advancement prospects.

This concept of handing out permanent residence based on a theoretical concept of achievement BUT without a job offer is naïve at best and sinister at worst. It ensures a steady stream of accomplished professionals with solid work ethics who are well adjusted societally and also have disposable savings. It is hard to resist the narrative around career opportunities and a better life with clean air/water etc and once these folks land, they are greeted with harsh realities of expensive housing and a high cost of living which has exponentially increased post pandemic. The "'Proof of Funds" which each immigrant family has to demonstrate before they are awarded the PR is sucked into a fat rental deposit which incidentally goes against the law of the land there but is demanded anyway, because a freshly landed immigrant will have no credit history and without that, you simply do not exist in Canada. Unfortunately, much of this narrative is manufactured by people from the same nationality which contributes the maximum number of emigrants and are a well entrenched part of the system which exploits the situation.

Nevertheless, going by the last few pages of this thread, it is good that many members have guaranteed job offers and yet they are crunching numbers and seeking advise on whether its worth it to move lock stock and barrel. From personal experience, I can say that the real value of the CAD is somewhere around 20 INR. It could be higher for mass manufactured items like junk food which is available at throwaway prices but definitely lower for services (a haircut) and of course, real estate. Of course, the situation was much better perhaps a decade back but the country is now prohibitively expensive and certainly does not need more immigrants who have to first land and then search for work. The government is lazy and mired in red tape and cannot deliver services which we in India take for granted. Those who pounce on the very mention of 'India is corrupt' won't even begin to imagine what it is like to be shut off with ignorance and silence. Racism may not be explicit but it is very much made to be felt. Menial jobs are run by cartels which represent different nationalities and very soon, you are caught in a battle to survive and forget that you came here to further your career. Of course, it is all very 'politically correct' on the surface because that is the very principle on which the society here is based on. Efficiency and speed are sacrificed for the sake of being 'nice' and 'polite' How many times have you been stood up by banks in India for poor service where you had no recourse but to grin and bear it? Incidents far graver than those for which we rant and rail and cower and bully in India will simply have to be put up with in Canada.

Emigration has never been easy and the same problems existed even at the turn of the century when America was being settled by mainland Europeans. It works out for some but it does not for many others and not always because intent and purpose were lacking. Like all other human enterprise, there is scope for exploitation in this too and if there is opportunity, it will be taken, both individually and collectively. It is just as important however to talk about the not so glorious aspects of life in the West too. Let people make an informed choice.

[Imran.Syed]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Member @fuzzydealhunter in all sincerity offered his hand to assist by sharing what he knows. That is so characteristic of this and many such threads on Team BHP. We help. This thread is not a place to vent your fury on fellow members. I don't know @fuzzydealhunter but he acted in good faith and your acerbic and hateful comments back are untoward and utterly uncalled for regardless of what your opinion of Canada is. I think you owe him an apology. He and others on this thread are not the source of your difficulties in Canada nor were they responsible for getting you there. So please stay within the lines of decorum of our forum. We are not yet another mill of the run social media site.

As readers of this thread know I am a cranky old man who doesn't think too highly of emigration. But we have to respect those who offer genuine well thought through advice and offers to assist.

Do not cross the line of decency. Thank you.

V.Narayan

Mr V Narayan

I am failing to understand how you and another senior user here whose post was deleted mistook my reply to fuzzydealhunter as indecent or belligerent!
I genuinely forgot to text him when he asked me to, because I was moving houses inside Canada and I got busy. Once he reminded me, I immediately texted him thanking for his offer to help and promised that I will listen to his ideas and suggestions earnestly when he replies!
A stranger on this forum offered to help me personally, not knowing anything about me except that we are both members on this forum and are in the same country so it is unfathomable of me to be offensive towards a person like that.
I am not having a great time but it does not mean I will put my effort towards ruining it for somebody else too.
I am so confused right now as to what makes my post looks offensive. I accepted his assistance wholeheartedly and frankly I fail to see how I even remotely could have offended him.

If it's the "you or others might think I hate Canada.." bit.. then even there I am not targeting him or anybody, I am giving my perspective based on a possible assumption people might form based on what I have had to say about Canada. Let me clarify further: I meant I do not blindly hate this country, I am heartbroken by its condition. I have given even personal examples to support this and in fact praise Canada for the good parts! Again I fail to understand how this could have offended anybody.

Originally Posted by androdev

I don't see anything offensive in Imran's post. In fact, I learned a great deal from his posts. It offers a fresh perspective. The replies, to be honest, are in bad taste (some replies have been deleted by the mods) and same-old "try harder", "mismatched expectations" without acknowledging the fundamental issue - crazy inflation that's really hurting new immigrants or those who have not invested in a house at the right time. I know many people who decided not to buy a house for many reasons and not due to financial indiscipline - who are earning excellent salaries - complain a lot about housing situation and I thought they were just nitpicking until I read Imran's post and did some research myself to understand just how severe it is.

If you can't afford to rent or buy a good place that you feel you rightfully deserve can be extremely frustrating. I am 100% certain that people who don't get this simple emotion are financially very comfortable and taking a position of "let them eat cake".

Yeah, unfortunately unless you experience it yourself, it's very hard to relate.
The expenses and income calculations I made in early 2022 were utterly outdated by late 2022. I am making more than the calculated income, affordability is down the hole though.

Nobody admits this in public forums for others to learn, you only read about the success and happiness. The immigration narrative has remained the same for so many years, totally out of sync with the ground realities of all the changes that have taken place in the last 30 years.

THIS is exactly why I am talking so openly about the drawbacks. Unfortunately, even now I see why the narrative is out of sync but it is seemingly getting better due to people who have come here starting to be more honest and open about everything to potential newcomers.

[fuzzydealhunter]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Do not cross the line of decency. Thank you.
V.Narayan

Thanks for the support but I am honestly not offended. I understand moving to a new county can be stressful. Happy to help out anyone if possible.

Originally Posted by hothatchaway

It is just as important however to talk about the not so glorious aspects of life in the West too. Let people make an informed choice.

Starting to feel like I need to start a support group for people disillusioned by Canada. Jokes aside, sorry you feel this way but you are in a way echoing my sentiments. Emigration is not a one size fits all solution and we need to stop looking at it as such. Everyones situation is different, and you need to make a decision based on what works for you instead of what Savita aunties kid did.

Originally Posted by Imran.Syed

Again I fail to understand how this could have offended anybody.

Think lets de-escalate here and I look forward to connecting with you. Lets aways keep in mind that this is just posts written on a forum and its easy to misconstrued what was meant. I am sure we all have run into such a situation one too many times at work with IM and emails.

Originally Posted by kushagra452

Dear BHPians, I am based in Delhi and hold a Canadian PR card. I got the PR card in March 2020 (just before the Covid lockdown). The card is valid till March 2025.

Since I will not be able to complete the mandatory 2 yrs in Canada, my PR card will most likely not be renewed/extended. I have written to IRCC (Canadian immigration) requesting waiving off the minimum 2 yrs requirement because of Covid related lockdown and travel restrictions. I have not received a reply.

The question in my mind is whether it is worth landing in Canada now. Additionally, reading about the high cost of living, initial struggle and other immigration related issues are making me question, planning a move to Canada.

Your PR Card is still valid and you will be allowed to enter. The residency requirement is based on total of 2 years within a five year period. If there is time for you to still meet the requirement you should land and not plan to renew your card before the 2 year residency requirement is met.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by Imran.Syed

GCC countries
US
ASEAN Countries
Scandinavian nations
Other EU nations
Australia
Canada

Best option for growth: India
Best option for high income prospects with bearable costs and peace: GCC

Hey Buddy,

I've been quietly following your posts and do quite empathise with you. What you do say about Canada is quite inline with what I've heard from my friends living in Canada. Moving to a new place can be hard and I know it the most - I was born in India, brought up throughout the GCC, studied in India & Europe and currently working in the GCC. I have also visited Canada, Australia & the US and have multitude of friends there, so I think with all humility, I'll count myself as a decent source of information on living in various countries.

However, I disagree about the GCC. The GCC would be the best or the worst place for immigrants depending on how much you earn and where you are in life. If you are successful, you can make a crazy amount of money while pay no taxes and living a luxurious life, however, if you are starting at the bottom, it's not abnormal for an engineer or even a Ph.D. to be paid $1,000 or less which if you live in Dubai barely pays the rent if you have a family (other GCC countries are cheaper though). Also, keep in mind that with this salary, you legally cannot sponsor your family in the UAE or get a drivers license in Kuwait. This is not taking into account the enormous power that the employer has over your visa formalities, they can pretty much sc**w you whenever they want. On top of it is the very casual racism where every government officer treats you like their servant and except for a few educated locals, brown expats barely get any respect (exceptions to this rule are Bahrainis and Omanis, the latter of which are extremely friendly!). Even peacefulness and safety is relative - UAE and Qatar are extremely safe, Bahrain and Oman are alright while Kuwait and Saudi are downright hopeless - my dad got mugged once in Kuwait with a 7inch knife held against his neck and I just last week got scammed by a fake taxi driver at Dammam airport, KSA which apparently is as common as in third world countries but doesn't make the news. Thanks to the tightly held media, you don't hear many of the news outside. For example, about 2 months ago, there were 10-12 hour lines on the Bahrain-Saudi causeway for about a week, I myself got stuck in this line for 11 hours, unable to turn back. There were other cars stuck with old people and women with babies, not even a washroom nearby. Meanwhile, the GCC media were harping about how the inefficient democratic West had long airport lines during post-COVID and how efficient GCC airports were (though anecdotally, I found European airports slightly better than the GCC if you are flying economy class). As I said earlier, if you are among the lucky ones (like me, I'd admit), the GCC is indeed the best but for the vast majority, it certainly is not.

Also, I wouldn't rank the GCC & the US highly anyway since they don't offer any permanent residency options except for 10-year golden visas - again, if you are rich.

My ranking would be:

Netherlands/Scandinavia
Australia
Germany
Other EU countries
Canada
UK
US
GCC
ASEAN (labor rights are even worse in the ASEAN than the GCC)

[Imran.Syed]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

However, I disagree about the GCC. The GCC would be the best or the worst place for immigrants depending on how much you earn and where you are in life. If you are successful, you can make a crazy amount of money while pay no taxes and living a luxurious life, however, if you are starting at the bottom, it's not abnormal for an engineer or even a Ph.D. to be paid $1,000 or less which if you live in Dubai barely pays the rent if you have a family (other GCC countries are cheaper though). Also, keep in mind that with this salary, you legally cannot sponsor your family in the UAE or get a drivers license in Kuwait. This is not taking into account the enormous power that the employer has over your visa formalities, they can pretty much sc**w you whenever they want. On top of it is the very casual racism where every government officer treats you like their servant and except for a few educated locals, brown expats barely get any respect (exceptions to this rule are Bahrainis and Omanis, the latter of which are extremely friendly!). Even peacefulness and safety is relative - UAE and Qatar are extremely safe, Bahrain and Oman are alright while Kuwait and Saudi are downright hopeless - my dad got mugged once in Kuwait with a 7inch knife held against his neck and I just last week got scammed by a fake taxi driver at Dammam airport, KSA which apparently is as common as in third world countries but doesn't make the news. Thanks to the tightly held media, you don't hear many of the news outside. For example, about 2 months ago, there were 10-12 hour lines on the Bahrain-Saudi causeway for about a week, I myself got stuck in this line for 11 hours, unable to turn back. There were other cars stuck with old people and women with babies, not even a washroom nearby. Meanwhile, the GCC media were harping about how the inefficient democratic West had long airport lines during post-COVID and how efficient GCC airports were (though anecdotally, I found European airports slightly better than the GCC if you are flying economy class). As I said earlier, if you are among the lucky ones (like me, I'd admit), the GCC is indeed the best but for the vast majority, it certainly is not.

Hala Wallah

You know, some times I forget Kuwait is part of GCC too.
I know Saudis who fret at thoughts of the varying types of abuse in Kuwait.
Kuwait and Saudi Arabia are not for the faint of heart, here I agree with you. I would not advise a first time newcomer to GCC to start there but if you have the stomach (and the compensation) for it, maybe Saudi is doable but definitely not Kuwait. But even then I would rank Saudi And Kuwait last in the list of intra GCC countries to go to.
Bahrain, UAE, Oman, Qatar is what defines GCC life for me. Thank you for pointing this out.

Crime wise, unfortunately, what you describe is quite common in Saudi and to a degree in UAE (braggy about low crime rate) as well but in very limited areas. Law and order is strictly enforced but there are always leaks in the system, especially in pockets dominated by low income citizens/expats. My father went through something similar actually.. but almost 15-20 years ago. Since then these stories have gone down considerably. Fortunately, living in a better area further greatly decreases this problem. But yeah the GCC has a constant problem at throwing stones to an absurd/ comical level. KFC during school break or Eid is an outlier but the handling of it is not. The Jeddah Airport during peak hours for pilgrims is the worst airport experience ever. I would go as far as to call it torturous.

Yet.. when I compare all the daily life problems of where I am right now to that of GCC (except blatant racism,) they feel much smaller, much much more easily manageable.

And less than $1000 usd for Engineers and PhD people?
Speaking from my vast experience of working in Saudi Arabia, the freshest of the fresher Engineers, directly recruited from India (the lowest wage earners) get a basic pay of approx 1600usd plus shared accommodation and shared transportation. Personally know many freshly graduated engineers from India who got their first jobs at around $2500 plus housing, phone, internet and transport allowances. But the lowest is the guy earning 1600usd.
I know people making less or around $1k too, they are just not engineers or PhDs. Life is not great for them but they are able to support a family back home which would not be possible by them living in their home country. They are mostly not very skilled.

Also, I wouldn't rank the GCC & the US highly anyway since they don't offer any permanent residency options except for 10-year golden visas - again, if you are rich.

My ranking would be:

Netherlands/Scandinavia
Australia
Germany
Other EU countries
Canada
UK
US
GCC
ASEAN (labor rights are even worse in the ASEAN than the GCC)

My list does not take into account permanent residency right away. For that your list is more or less spot on. It's based on where immigrants can make and save the most money while living relatively comfortably outside India in 2023's high inflation, soaring COL world. The GCC nations and some oil states in US are shielded somewhat from all this due to high oil prices right now but the GCC nations are easiest to immigrate to. It is also for people who are like you and me (the lucky ones.)

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by Imran.Syed

As I do not belong to any technical profession, my list for general economic immigration/emigration in 2023 would be like this: (in chronological order)

GCC countries

Wow! I will respectfully disagree. Some of the other members have already countered this. Besides, economic reasons are one of the reasons and not the only ones. I have no personal experiences but from what I have heard, not all people from different religions are treated equally in Gulf, at least not the same way as in Canada irrespective of religion.

Best option for growth: India

Highly debatable. At what costs and is it possible to have a work-life as you have experienced elsewhere? I have grown both better and lower than some of my college mates who moved to Canada immediately after passing out. We cannot generalise such things.

I read in one of the posts here that Canada was ranked pretty high in some type low crime country index. Maybe not so applicable in 2023.Insurance payout did happen but no police action.

Yes, in GTA things have gone bad as far as the Auto thefts are concerned. Old timers blame immigration for this. I will say, a combination of a lot of things. By now, am sure, you would have known the value of "Human life" in Canada. Police always encourage not to resist any robbery or fightback and instead report to them. Stores will simply hand over the money when demanded by a crook.

A large number of people were caught recently, unfortunately, a lot from our country, especially my native state.

https://www.punjabnewsexpress.com/wo...-origin-207152

There's a reduction, but authorities will need to do better. Most of these are sold overseas so exports can be checked. Am sure, things will improve given how the technology is improving. I haven't heard of any Tesla getting stolen from home or parking. Some of the older technologies are prone to theft.

-Catalytic convertor thefts have skyrocketed everywhere in the country. That is a major expense.

I don't know what's the number of such thefts vs the cars on the road in Canada, must be a tiny 0.0_ % in my opinion.

-Skyrocketing number of homeless people and drug abusers. Not as bad as in California though.

-Thefts, carjacking, stabbings on public transport, etc., all skyrocketing.

Wow, I don't know where you get this skyrocketing on everything. Can you present some numbers? Except for certain downtown areas, I haven't personally seen any such increase in homeless people and there too not in multiples.

Stabbing on public transport - this is what I see on Google.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/violen...-say-1.6355053

My criticism of Canada is more of a personal heartbreak. It breaks my heart to not be able to see a good viable future in this country and not just for me, but for the millions of others who are fooled by the Canadian Dream. It breaks my heart how ruined and broken this country is and how accelerated that ruining has become.

I don't think immigration is in the millions, this is what Google tells me.

https://www.livemint.com/news/world/...614522998.html


If you are talking specifically about Indians, here's data for the past 10 years and it's not even a million added together.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuarta...=13100ff55620\


I could not find data for the people who voluntarily surrendered their PR during this period. Similarly, I won't know the data of the people who worked or stayed on a work permit but didn't pursue PR even if they could and went back to their home country. I know about a few who either surrendered or didn't pursue PR after qualifying for multiple reasons and that was many years ago, much before Covid and the period you referred to as Golden.

If it were economically possible, I’d happily live here for the rest of my life. I am sad that so much potential is going to waste here.

The issue is when a lot of people are going to work or stay in a smaller area. The housing problem or the price increase that you see is mostly in GTA or Vancouver. There's hardly an increase in some of the other cities I have experienced like Edmonton or Calgary. You can still buy a very good detached house in Edmonton at 500K.

I will compare the situation to metro cities in India. If you have ever lived or have knowns here in Gurgaon, property prices have simply increased by twice in most residential areas in past 2 Years. One of the most premium and expensive properties Camellia's by DLF was priced around 20 CR on March 21 and is currently offered at over 50 CR. You can well imagine the situation of other cheaper ones.

If I had the head-in-sand mentality that so many Canadians and people around me have, I probably would have continued living here happily.

I think your core problem is something different.

What makes you think that others, including people in GTA, paying 60-70% of their salaries only as rentals are all fools or have made peace with themselves realised their mistakes and committed themselves to the future? No, on the contrary, they all see something good, for themselves and the next generation. Yes, a lot of them were not privileged in their home countries in the first place and find whatever they get rewarding but even the ones who are well settled here, have moved and got blended. They surely have made some compromises but I haven't seen a lot moving back.

I wish sometimes that I was not so aware.

Ignorance is bliss, usually. But here, it's simply a mismatch. If you don't like it's fine. Even I don't like living in certain places in GTA. I can tell you with eyes closed what Omelette was made in a particular city just by the oil.

Canada has corruption too, just maybe not at the level of India.

I don't think a commoner in Canada needs to pay a pie for anything. On the contrary, it will be a problem if one tries. For the businesses or otherwise, I will have no comments as I have no experience and neither it matters to 99.9999% and more people.

The extremely happy ones who at least own their one house and are nearing the end of their loan term, and the extremely disgruntled ones who are renting or living with their parents and won't be able to own anything and are massively frustrated.

There's a lot of peer pressure, especially in housing. Even people who have one house, have taken HELOC have spent the money elsewhere. Booking new homes or doing some investments. I will say this is mostly to earn more and expect similar rewards in the past. This may not be a good call for everyone especially ones making investments without knowledge. It's a debt trap and a lot of people have fallen into it.

https://www.canada.ca/en/financial-c...ne-credit.html

For everybody:
This video from a high earning IT employee from Russia and its comments and the link to the book this guy has written basically sums up everything out there:

What, in your opinion, will be the average salary of that Software person and what will be the salary for his wife in this video?

Given my limited knowledge, I assume they will be at least earning over 100K. Can they not save 50-100K to buy a new home for about 500-800K? Why do they need to look at Million dollars detached homes?

You are talking about Doctors and how people die without care, Yes it's difficult to get dates for any specialised treatments but did you or the guy in the video mention the family clinic? Can you not simply walk into one and see a Doctor usually without waiting (with appointments) or in less than an hour without appointments in most places? I don't see any problems with most lab tests either.

Sometimes for some special tests or scans, there can be a wait but there can be a way out like looking at places a little far from the main towns. And, No, usually no one will let you Die waiting for treatment. You are attended promptly if are in serious condition, Yes things could have been better but relatively, it fairs far better than any other similar setup elsewhere.

He too talks about other things like you have listed but I don't think these are big numbers. It's a country, not heaven. If I have missed anything do point it as I could not finish the video

No my friend, I got busy with moving, so I forgot to text you. Please check your inbox and thank you for reminding me.

Originally Posted by androdev

I don't see anything offensive in Imran's post

Usually, when someone is trying to help you, I will begin my reply with an apology for missing. This may be a generational thing but I won't say to someone "I got busy" and will instead begin " Sorry, I got busy". I also thought just like VN but as I mentioned, it's just a very personal thing.

It offers a fresh perspective. same-old "try harder", "mismatched expectations" without acknowledging the fundamental issue - crazy inflation that's really hurting new immigrants or those who have not invested in a house at the right time.

Please tell me how is this different to any other big city in the world. What we have seen in the past Two Years is not going to continue forever.

I know many people who decided not to buy a house for many reasons and not due to financial indiscipline - who are earning excellent salaries - complain a lot about housing situation and I thought they were just nitpicking until I read Imran's post and did some research myself to understand just how severe it is.

It is, but this is nothing specific to any region or country. We still can buy a very good house in other parts of Canada just like India. I cannot afford the same house, I live in Gurgaon but I can still buy the same house we have in our ancestral village or even bigger. The issue is when a lot of people are living in the vicinity of the cities where there are jobs, this thing is bound to happen.

If you can't afford to rent or buy a good place that you feel you rightfully deserve can be extremely frustrating.

Yes but who decides this? I like to live closer to nature, a ravine lot with a creek or a water view, maybe on a hill but the question is can I afford it? Definitely not in Gurgaon and nor in any major city in GTA.
But look at this property, it's about 50 Kms from Toronto Pearson and was sold at around 10 CR. Can you show me anything similar around Banglore or Gurgaon or Mumbai or others in Gulf?

https://housesigma.com/web/en/house/...22762-40346826

I have issue with the hypocrisy of so called free society/free choice that doesn't like immigrants who choose to preserve their culture, language and so on while abiding by all the laws and greatly contributing to the economy.

Yeah, I agree. Nothing wrong and very personal. We have mostly stayed away from such communities for other reasons. (I don't like the breakfast or coffee in our eateries -)

The strongest driver for migration from India has been financial benefits.

I really wonder whether such young people need to migrate at all.

You have answered yourself here-

The narrative was very different 20 years back.

A lot of youngsters move for very different reasons now. My son is happy living independently, managing on a starting salary as any other normal engineer will get in Canada, paying over 30% in taxes and about 70% on house rental on the remainder as I always supported him while studying and have told him to continue as long he wants. But around 8 months into his job, he is looking at a smaller place, a little away from downtown as he doesn't want anything from me now. I feel proud of this. Buying a house is not something on his mind yet, though he can qualify for one. He drives to work and on weekends goes hiking/ rock climbing or kayaking.

Originally Posted by hothatchaway

The unofficial norm for landed immigrants is to eke out a living for six months at least, before even dreaming of landing a job in their field of expertise.

Again, this will vary from person and the field. My BIL was a renowned Ortho physician here and with prior experience in UK, the whole family moved last year to Toronto. He cannot do any practice in Canada but goes to a hospital and work under a Doctor, to whom he is much more senior/ qualified and experienced. Even doing operations but all under fellowship earning a fraction of what the other guy earns. On the contrary, his wife currently has three jobs, she is an experienced teacher with PHD and earns about 3 times what her husband earns.

Not because one lacks the requisite skills, but because of some nebulous concept called "Canadian experience"' Those in tech may find the going easier.

Not always, as I mentioned with a personal example.

The "'Proof of Funds" which each immigrant family has to demonstrate before they are awarded the PR is sucked into a fat rental deposit which incidentally goes against the law of the land there but is demanded anyway

Usually, this happens with what we call Desi realtors. Demanding 4-6 months as a security or advance rentals. Not a norm and one can rent out a place even on month to month basis. One of my knowns rents out his basements, mostly to newcomers going as far as picking them up from Airport, and giving cooked/ dry food and utensils for a few weeks until they get settled. So, you will find every type of person. He was helped similarly by a Gentleman 15 Years ago when he first landed.

I can say that the real value of the CAD is somewhere around 20 INR.

A medium Americano costs less than 3 CAD at Starbucks, unless it's junk, please check the prices here and compare. And I am not even talking about cars yet - I will say this whole thing of doing comparisons is wrong. We simply spend based on earnings in that currency. Any conversions won't be correct. A good quality meal at Haldiram will cost Rs 300 but it will only get you a short sub in Canada.

Yeah, unfortunately unless you experience it yourself, it's very hard to relate.
The expenses and income calculations I made in early 2022 were utterly outdated by late 2022.

Unless you have factored in buying a house for yourself, I don't think anything else has increased by twice. Food and eating out has increased but it's coming lower now. The clothes, I think are about the same.

I am making more than the calculated income, affordability is down the hole though.

Since you have been mentioning a lot about this, can you give us some ballpark figures and how you find things out of reach here and how you could have enjoyed the same things in the Gulf, which comes on top of your list? I will appreciate if you can present some actual figures.


PS- I surrendered my PR many years ago and am a proud Indian, hopefully going to live here until death. I could have settled in Canada too but I didn't like it. This has nothing to do with any fundamental issues in Canada. My family enjoys a lot in Canada and I don't force them to come back here. I spend considerable time in Canada and enjoy a lot of things.