[charanreddy]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

, I have to say that you talk like someone who has been swallowing all the wrong right-wing press.

You may learn more in time. Let me say that my view of India now, after nearly twenty years of living here, probably bears little resemblance to how I saw it back then. I guess this is probably true of everyone who is new to a place. We live and learn

NB: My native place is Britain, not mainland Europe.

Dear Sir,

I believe I am slightly leaning towards right wing in my Outlook. Not sure what you mean by the wrong type. Let me say that I am not a religious zealot or support crony extreme right wing (if that’s what you mean). Humanity comes first, but history is proof that more lives have been destroyed on the altar of good intentions which distance reward from effort or impact. The mere fact that the social security bills have become too much to bear by the working populace is proof that something is fundamentally wrong. We just can’t have more people benefitting from the system than those giving to it. The people who benefit the most here are those in power. They are writing cheques from some one else’s bank balance.

I will admit that my world view may change ..But I called it as I saw it .

Also please dont think I am berating people in general. I am deeply appreciative of my German friends and colleagues. They are empathetic, knowledgeable and generally very unbiased in their outlook. What I wish I saw more of in general was Intent, which is by far the most important ingredient of a successful enterprise. —
In my humble opinion.

[ZenMaster]

I am not going to comment on social or political conditions in India. To be honest, no matter the issues and hatred among people there is no place like home where no one can say to you that you don't belong there for whatever reason.

BUT

If I'd emigrate from India, it would be because of this: Its really really hard to survive in India as a middle class family..
Its extremely difficult to find a well paying job as a young graduate that can help you afford a decent aspirational standard of living. Forget finding a job in a field you love. The sheer competition,stress and rat race that one has to go through to afford a basic lifestyle is tiring and leads to burn out.

After growing up in the comfort of the "Gulf", I decided to make India my base because I didn't want to leave my parents to rot here alone in their old age. While they always encouraged me to look for opportunities in the West I've never tried because I know that with my skill level I can easily make a career path there and eventually settle there while leaving my sick parents here alone. This is something I never want.
Currently I live in one of the most polluted cities in India famous for its smog....Why? Because unfortunately that is where my company is located. Despite being a very good student who passed engineering with flying colors I had to go through great trouble and periods of confusion and stress, intense competition and struggle to land a job - finally by Grace of God I got my dream job in the auto industry because I applied for an exam that I never knew about, just the day the applications closed. I love the job, but its stressful, tiring and underpaying for the amount of money that the company makes off of me.

Had I completed my education abroad, I'd have got the job easily and been paid enough to live a very comfortable life. (Comfortable being the word to keep in mind here) while also having time to spend on myself due to the great work life balance available there.

This is the simple truth:
For an average person with decent skill other countries offer a life that is comfortable, relatively stress free,well paying and offers a good environment for their holistic improvement and great quality of life. While for the same person, life in India would be a constant struggle and an assault on their senses. Being good is never good enough to ensure a good quality of life.

Don't get me wrong, its very much possible to live happily in India if you fall in the categories below:

1.You are rich and you have influence/clout among the "important" people or if you are one of these "important" people/bureaucrat.

2. You have a decent govt. Job/well paying private job and have modest aspirations(modest by Indian standards - which would be considered lower middle class in other countries)

3.You live in a village, living a simple life - connected to nature & away from the chaos and cruelty of modern Indian urban jungles where its only survival of the fittest.


Most people continuing in India are not here because they are satisfied and happy, but because of a lot of constraints due to which they trim their ambitions.

If I talk about myself : While I won't be settling abroad, as any self respecting Malayalee would do, I'd definitely move to the Middle East if I get a well paying job over there.

[anti21]

I think this would have to be broadly divided into US emigration, UK/Europe emigration, Middle-Easy emigration and Singapore/Australia/New Zealand emigration. I also speak from tech employment point of view, so I will ignore the rest.

H1B is just a bit shy of being a corporate slave. There are few companies that sponsor this, you are always at the mercy of your employer and you have only 60 days to get a new job if you are removed. You'll have constant anxiety and won't ever be free to speak at your job or leave it at will. You would be worried if you offended the management who might kick you off anytime you want. This kind of working really sucks. The only upside is most of the innovation and discoveries happen here. Also, if you are in the top 5% of your field not living in California, you can really rake in the moolah.

UK/Europe/Australia/New Zealand emigration is mainly due to quality of life. Compensation wise there isn't much difference between India and UK. In India the life would be much more luxurious. But VISA part is comparatively easy. You want to get away from pollution, racism, castism, religiousm or corruption of this country which is understandable. These are good place to settle but on a long term point, the pay won't be that high and would more or less be equal to India.


Singapore/Middle East, the pay is great but it is almost impossible to get Citizenship. You'd always be treated as an outsider. But there would be no/minimum taxation and the pay is also good compared to cost of living. You can save a lot here, come back home, purchase a couple of properties and retire off the rental yield. But you cannot think about being permanent here.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by charanreddy

estroyed on the altar of good intentions which distance reward from effort or impact. The mere fact that the social security bills have become too much to bear by the working populace is proof that something is fundamentally wrong. We just can’t have more people benefitting from the system than those giving to it. The people who benefit the most here are those in power. They are writing cheques from some one else’s bank balance...

No, you don't understand. But we may not turn to politics here. It would be off-topic anyway.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by charanreddy

In general I have found people in EU to be lacking in Initiative and effort and I see their socialist system failing to survive in the long run. Europe’s pension system and health system have good benefits which encourages people to slack away or be mediocre at their jobs. This is visible at all levels and strata .. all the way from blue collar workers to knowledge workers. In fact to pay its current social security bills Europe needs new workers and hence opening up to immigration. Is this sustainable and will the government be able to continue to provide benefits in the long term future ( 30+ yrs) . looks very unlikely.

If given a choice ( and enough money), I would prefer India as a lot of the problems can be overcome with money:

.

We have lived an worked in quite a number of different countries over the last 40 years. Gabon, Congo, Nigeria, Chili, Barbados, USA, India, Germany, Scotland, England to name just a few. On average about 3-3.5 years. Since 2017 we live in the Netherlands (mostly)

I don’t recognise your observations on the EU at all.

There is a fundamental difference between India/USA and most of the EU. In the sense that neither India, nor the USA has much, if anything, in terms of social safety nets. You are effectively on your own.

Having said that, there is no scientific evidence, none, that shows having social safety net makes people less eager to work, get better or anything like that. You only need to study the churn numbers on unemployment, return to work after sickness and you will see very little difference. Apart from some people who abuse the system. And some people who genuinely can’t work or are suffering from long term illnesses.

This phenomena has been studied in depth for decades and it always shows the same result. By and large, people are very eager to return to work. Whether they have been made redundant or have become ill.

The difference between India/USA and most EU countries is, that when you get made redundant, or become seriously ill, you are at least given some financial back up. It is rarely on par with your old salary and it also limited in time, and typically comes down over time. (for the Netherlands, different countries, different rules but the principle is the same. (considerably less pay than what you earned and for a limited amount of time.)

In a career spanning forty years I have been made redundant twice. Both times I received unemployment benefits for a few months before I found a new suitable job. I have been on sick leave for the last 20+ months due to a non treatable illness. Here in the Netherlands the first year, your employer pays 100% of your salary and the second year it needs to be at least 70%. So at least I did not have to worry about my financial situation and could spend my time in getting my (future) live which will be quite different from before, in order. The whole system is geared to get everybody back to work. No matter what. I have been a CEO and COO of our local companies in India and the USA. But under the unemployment scheme I would need to take on any job, regardless of pay. If that means I would be flipping burgers at McDonald’s, or filling shelves in the local supermarket so be it. If I don’t my unemployment benefits will be halted. Only because I am actually unfit to work at all, do I stay on benefits. First two years on the company pay roll, so it doesn’t cost any taxpayer anything (by law).

The notion that many non_EU people and just about all right wing people have on how much and how long you will be receiving benefits is completely at odds with reality. It is always less (never more than 70% of your last salary and maximised) than what you were earning and it is very limited in time too.

During this 40+ year career I have (mandatory) paid for these unemployment and health risks. Everybody does. It is effectively an insurance. It is not the government paying out, it is premiums that are collected from everybody that gets distributed to those who need it most.

So yes, if the premiums fall short of the outlay, either raise the premiums (taxes) or adjust the benefits. That is what has been happening for decades. Nothing new under the sun.

I think your statement

as a lot of the problems can be overcome with money

shows where you are coming from. A highly individually approach. As long as you and your immediate loved ones are provided for, you feel great. Screw the rest (pardon my French).

I have always hated for instance the UK health system. All people are on the NHS. But those who can afford will get private insurance and will get treatment earlier. To me that is so incredibly wrong. At least in the Netherlands there is simply no private health care. No matter who you are, what you do, or what you earn you get in the queu, like anybody else and wait your turn.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to look after yourself only. I just prefer a society where there is some common sense on what society needs to provide to all. Which is in my book, schooling (education) health care and some basic benefits to people when they are without income. Which means you need to have political and tax system that regulates that. This is a fundamental difference between the USA at large and the EU. There is virtually no political party (left or right) in the EU that doesn’t believe society needs to cater for its people and provide benefits and support to those who need it. The debate is more about who pays how much, how much will be provided. In the USA the debate is much more fundamental about whether society (government) should provide these sort of services/benefits at all??

Let me share an example. My wife and I (then still my girlfriend) lived in Brighton, UK in the early 80s’. Winter used to be quite moderate on the south coast of England even 40 years ago. But in that period there were two very harsh long winters with weeks of snow and severe frost.

We had just bought our first home, a small terraced house in an old council estate. Yes, we were very much yuppies (two big incomes) that were moving into those sort of sought after premises. But it still held quite a number of original council estate residents as well. Usually well into their 80s and 90s. The first winter we had several of them freeze to death, because they could not afford to heat their homes. In those days, for them gas was still on a coin meter. And they simply did not have the money to put into the meter, so they froze to death. Luckily the next winter we managed to ensure nobody died.

I put it to you: Can any country that claims to be civilised, let its people starve, freeze to death, not educate, not provide them with equal opportunities? Not look after them at all when they get sick, when they loose their job?

My son is autistic. He will never ever hold a job. So here in the Netherlands he gets some financial benefits. The absolute minimum, but that is what all Dutch people pay for. Those who really can’t look after themselves, get looked afte and provided by society at large.

You could argue that is a responsibility of the family, but sometimes there is not a family and most families are simply not in a position to be able to bear the financial burden of somebody that needs continuous care and looking after.

If you want to live in a society like that, where you are responsible for your self and you have the income to do so, you are most likely to feel comfortable in countries like the USA and possible India.

Interestingly enough you mention pension in the EU. Have you looked at pensions in the USA. It is a very different system not everyone has a pension. But many pensions in the USA are considerably better than the best pension scheme we have in the EU. Many of the 401K scheme start paying out after 20 or 30 years. I don’t get a pension till I am 67. Which means I have been paying premium for 27 years or so. (In all honesty portion of the pension premium is paid by employers as well) . We have a lot of friends in the USA, but amongst our peers, I am the only one at almost 64 who is still (supposed to) work until 67. They all retired much earlier then I ever will. Lazy *******s those Americans, retiring early!!

I am not a religious person at all, but I do believe I have a responsible to ensure my fellow man/woman have a decent live, get a fair chance. At least to some degree look after my fellow men/women.

In the USA you will see endless charities popping up. It’s not necessarily a bad thing. My wife and I participated in lots of these. From providing homes to people released from prison, to helping with providing Christmas presents to children from poor families and helping out with food for the homeless. Although well meant, and I will say, extremely enlightening for us, it is still just charities.

I believe you need to institutionalise these sort of benefits. People should not feel they need to depend on the charity of others, when they go through a rough patch of their live. There should be benefits for all those that need it, paid by all, usually through some form of taxes obviously.

So I prefer by and large the EU approach. And again, there is no credible evidence that suggest it makes peoples on benefits lazy. None whatsoever, apart from a handful that abuse the system, as you would expect. The USA, with relative low taxes, has more tax fraud than most nations, go figure.

There is also a difference in approach to life between the USA and most of the EU. You can fit in India as you like and say. Most people look for more than just a job. Of course, they do need income and they have no problem working. But they don’t necessarily aspire to endless promotions and so on. They look at live/work balance. Both my kids and their spouses all work part time. None of them want to work full time. With the two of them they earn enough for their kind of life style. They dont want more money perse. There is all sorts of things they want to achieve in life, earning more is not necessarily high on their list.

In quite a few western EU countries there are campaign for people to become a nurse, a mechanic, sort of jobs that don’t need a college or university degree. Because we are going to need an awful lot of people that can actually use their hands, rather then only their brains. What with the increasing old age and all these challenges around building windmills, solar panel farms, more public transport etc. These jobs pays decent money and nobody will look down on you because you are a bus driver or electrician. Our next door neighbour is a nurse and he drives a taxi. And you can do them easily part time. You and your partner both working 20 hours per week gets you one full income. You both work 3 days a week and you have one and half income!! A decent income!

I appreciate it might well very different for Indians. Education and a well paying job, prosperous career can be a real way out of poverty, or at least having a considerable better (at least material) way of life. In the EU and to some extend even in the USA that is less relevant. That is just part of the society and the (hate the word) maturity of the society you live in.

I could discuss work ethics in Barbados (Caribean) if you like. So without really understanding context, culture and some sense of how a society at large works and finances its benefits, it’s a useless debate. That doesn’t mean you are wrong about how you see things. That is just your observation. But I do believe you need to take a closer look.

Immigrants in the EU are a blessing and to some extend a real problem. In most Western EU countries one of the biggest challenges is actually labour. In just about any industries anywhere there is a huge shortage of labour. In many EU countries unemployment is at it’s lowest ever. Look at he NHS in the UK. So is it a problem all these immigrants. NO, not as long as they hold jobs, pay taxes and pay social premiums. The problem is with illegal immigrants, they are abused at best.

Almost all Ukraine immigrants due to the war, hold jobs, participate in pension schemes, pay taxes, pay social premiums etc. (there are some countries that have introduced some special tax benefits as well to employ Unkrains. )

Jeroen

[AZT]

I find the direct taxes in India are alright but the indirect taxes is where things go downhill. 18% and 28% slabs should not even exist. Indirect taxes are basically a flat tax on whatever level of income you may have. The tax level on cars is nonsensical and the middle class non company buyers bear the biggest brunt.

Direct taxes dont get us the social safety net but the rates are probably at par with other developing nations. Moved out of India recently and I dont see myself moving back unless there's some major change. People in general are a lot more toxic than they were 10 years ago, so much hate and the news channels are just fanning the flames everyday. These are the highest TRP ones and not even fringe.

Ideal would be coming back with a foreign passport and having the option to leave whenever you want.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

My son is autistic. He will never ever hold a job. So here in the Netherlands he gets some financial benefits. The absolute minimum, but that is what all Dutch people pay for. Those who really can’t look after themselves, get looked after and provided by society at large.

Meanwhile in India, this is the situation.

[RGK]

Originally Posted by Amrik Singh

The so called roots are very short lived - probably a generation only. Moving for better prospects is a chance which should not be missed

Making short-lived roots into long-lived ones is the goal.

We go away for a variety of reasons, and I believe that is okay, but we must never forget our motherland at certain point of time.

People who remain here despite having several chances abroad deserve something special .

[JoshMachine]

Originally Posted by ZenMaster

I am not going to comment on social or political conditions in India. To be honest, no matter the issues and hatred among people there is no place like home where no one can say to you that you don't belong there for whatever reason.
--
BUT
--
If I'd emigrate from India, it would be because of this:.Its really really hard to survive in India as a middle class family.

Looks like you probably got a raw deal early on when you couldn't manage to get a "good job" easily. But generalizing this for the aam junta and saying only the rich/influential or only those with govt//well paying private job/those living in villages with simple life have a good outlook - is a bit far-fetched and unwarranted for, in my view.

Not to compare what the western world/Gulf offers, but in India, generally speaking, increasingly in the private sector, you have a choice. Choice of where to work + how much to work + where to work from etc.
And with every job or work ethic comes a trade-off - whether you stay in India or outside. That trade-off is always about high pay / high stress or somewhere in between. So, again its incorrect to say or perceive rather, that for the same pay scale or same work ethic, life is a assault on your senses in India.
Without straying too much from the topic, staying out of India also may have its own challenges -the biggest challenge being away from your folks (in your specific case for example), loss of identity or feeling left out of the system etc.

Would like to conclude by saying that living anywhere (India or outside) is a matter of choice that one has to understand and execute consciously. And there are ample opportunities in the entire spectrum of choices, generally to meet ambitions.
Once that conscious choice is understood & implemented by self, then living can surely be satisfactory and happy.

[ZenMaster]

Originally Posted by JoshMachine

Looks like you probably got a raw deal early on when you couldn't manage to get a "good job" easily. But generalizing this for the aam junta and saying only the rich/influential or only those with govt//well paying private job/those living in villages with simple life have a good outlook - is a bit far-fetched and unwarranted for, in my view.
.

You could be right. Being non-IT/CS engineer is not easy in India. Finding 'a' job is not that difficult, but finding a good job is especially in the Non-IT sector.

Even I got placed in one of the Big IT Giants in India despite being a mechanical engineer. But I wanted to stick to what I love and studied hard for in my 4 years of engineering.

Was that my choice? Yes.

Did I make thing difficult for myself? MAYBE.

What I was implying in my post is that this process would have been much much easier if in other countries. That's all.

Once I joined the corporate world especially in the core field, I understood that references and connections with the right people is more important than your qualifications.
Most often the job vacancies are filled by people who know the insiders. This is not cronyism. The companies themselves prefer and encourage referrals from their employees when trying to fill job vacancies offering good incentives for successful referrals.

After all, how hoappy you are living in India depends totally on you. It isn't worth it to judge the people who decide to live in India nor the poeple who decide to leave in search of a more comfortable life..

[DCEite]

Originally Posted by ZenMaster

If I'd emigrate from India, it would be because of this: Its really really hard to survive in India as a middle class family..
Its extremely difficult to find a well paying job as a young graduate that can help you afford a decent aspirational standard of living. Forget finding a job in a field you love. The sheer competition,stress and rat race that one has to go through to afford a basic lifestyle is tiring and leads to burn out.

My 2 cents.

This perception that in the west its easy to achieve aspirational living, own house, education for kids and comparable (To Indian upper middle class) standard of living for the whole family, is not always 100% true.

The west has its own set of problems, and unemployment is emerging as one of the major ones.

They are now putting in(or forced to put in) a lot more working hours and lot more work days than they ever did, as their own survival in light of fierce competition is at stake. The rat race in the west (EU and US) is as fast if not faster than in India.

Then there is inflation, high interest rates, in general a high cost of living , very high medical costs with huge waiting times etc.

[stanjohn123]

Originally Posted by ZenMaster

While I won't be settling abroad, as any self respecting Malayalee would do, I'd definitely move to the Middle East if I get a well paying job over there.

If Middle East had granted citizenship to Indians, I am sure 99% of them would never have returned nor never invested a single dime back in India and never ever come back here. I am sure I too would have never returned in that case

If you see, most of those NRI kids are now moving to Europe and US. Very few are coming back to India and doing some business and that too only because they are affluent in India with all that saved wealth.

[ranjitnair77]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I could discuss work ethics in Barbados (Caribean) if you like. So without really understanding context, culture and some sense of how a society at large works and finances its benefits, it’s a useless debate.

Thank you for this incredibly detailed, nuanced and perceptive post. You are right in calling out the debate as useless without context. A lot of the debates around this topic result from false dichotomy: where you are forced to pick one of two sides (capitalism vs socialism). Whereas the truth (as always) lies somewhere in the middle. Every country needs to find the balance that works for them but needs to ensure, at the very least, a safety net for its citizens.

If you don't mind, could you elaborate your observations around work ethic in Barbados?

[TopLiveCentre]

Go to the land that treats you well, takes care of your health, looks after your children, gives you enough for what you do... no problem, but when the Indian team come around, you flock to the stadium to support them. You Indian!

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by ranjitnair77

If you don't mind, could you elaborate your observations around work ethic in Barbados?

It’s a complex issue. Have a look at this articles,

https://barbadostoday.bb/2022/09/28/...hics-attitude/

https://www.nationnews.com/2016/03/1...or-work-ethic/

https://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news...-productivity/

One of the problems in the recent past was also the level of corruption, especially inside government and associated public sector. The current PM has done a very good job so far to move Barbados far away from these sort of deplorable practices. Which also influence how people behave, thinking the rich gits get everything for free, why should I work?

I am oversimplifying of course and things are improving, but if you want anything done in Barbados never be in a hurry. Or you are going to be extremely disappointed.

Jeroen