[charanreddy]

Having recently relocated to Europe (Berlin), I can totally relate to the sentiments and points of view here.

I am in general more worried about crime in India Vs Europe. I think the super stiff penalties deter people from doing illegal things in EU. In india money and influence trump the justice delivery system , which has adapted to survive. In Europe as well there is corruption but only at the highest levels. In India it is all pervasive. From the lowest levels to the highest levels.

I firmly believe that India is the next big thing on the world map interms of opportunity despite systematic issues with governance. I feel Working population in India always goes above and beyond to make things comfortable for their families which adds value and creates wealth.

In general I have found people in EU to be lacking in Initiative and effort and I see their socialist system failing to survive in the long run. Europe’s pension system and health system have good benefits which encourages people to slack away or be mediocre at their jobs. This is visible at all levels and strata .. all the way from blue collar workers to knowledge workers. In fact to pay its current social security bills Europe needs new workers and hence opening up to immigration. Is this sustainable and will the government be able to continue to provide benefits in the long term future ( 30+ yrs) . looks very unlikely.

If given a choice ( and enough money), I would prefer India as a lot of the problems can be overcome with money:

1. Stay in a premium gated community and pay for security.
2. Get access to really good medical care by paying the premium (you won’t believe how hard it is to get a doctor appointment in Berlin , and that too a general physician and not a specialist)
3. Get great education. It’s not free, but it is available at a premium.

It may sound very insensitive of me as the above are out of reach of the common middle class man (My family was one while I was growing up).. but decisions need to be taken at an individual level and not with larger society in mind.

Our politicians and liberals talk big about brain drain, but these advise is only for the common public. The offspring of politicians and influential is either into politics or settles abroad.

[hondatoyotafan]

Originally Posted by charanreddy

Having recently relocated to Europe (Berlin), I can totally relate to the sentiments and points of view here.

I am in general more worried about crime in India Vs Europe. I think the super stiff penalties deter people from doing illegal things in EU. In india money and influence trump the justice delivery system , which has adapted to survive.

I feel as India grows more and more the administrative systems will become our Achilles heel. Our systems are still slow for this century. We have some of our grandfather's lands stuck in litigation for a decade plus. My Brother-In-Law still goes to court date after court date to get his due share from his former business partner from the last 6 years. Compared to this while i was in the US most lawsuits that i filed took less than a year to be resolved.

[Amrik Singh]

Originally Posted by charanreddy

I think the super stiff penalties deter people from doing illegal things in EU.

Who bothers about punishment for crime in India. Death Penalty for murder needs sentencing in Sessions Court, High Court and Supreme Court and to be under 'Rarest of Rare' Category. Each court taking its it's own sweet time in years. During this long period, most of the witnesses forget the sequence of events, are fed up of repeated trips to court or perish giving benefit to the accused.
If however, the sentence is still the same, we have a super busy President who would sit over the Mercy Petition till his/her tenure and pass on to the next.
In all probability, the accused dies if natural causes.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by charanreddy

[n general I have found people in EU to be lacking in Initiative and effort and I see their socialist system failing to survive in the long run. Europe’s pension system and health system have good benefits which encourages people to slack away or be mediocre at their jobs.

Whilst I do admit that the alternative to feeding oneself being starvation is an incentive, I have to say that you talk like someone who has been swallowing all the wrong right-wing press.

Having recently relocated to Europe

You may learn more in time. Let me say that my view of India now, after nearly twenty years of living here, probably bears little resemblance to how I saw it back then. I guess this is probably true of everyone who is new to a place. We live and learn

NB: My native place is Britain, not mainland Europe.

[RGK]

Lot of different views which keeps this thread interesting.

Despite my wife's interest, I gently declined many invitations to relocate abroad. I am my parents' only child, so I do not want them to feel lonely. That is the only explanation. Fortunately, I had numerous short-term opportunities to travel to a few other places.

I think you should move to whatever nation you want if one of your siblings is looking after your parents. There is nothing wrong with it since this is a fantastic opportunity (Sundar Pichai would have never dreamt that he will become a CEO of one of the most advanced technology companies in the world).

My daughter has migrated to the United States, and my son plans to continue his college education in a few years. Though I (we) have kindly asked them both not to stay there permanently, emotionally I believe we must make plans to live alone and visit them till we are comfortable.

But keep in mind that the roots will always be here, so plan to return in 15 years at most. I really believe that here is where we were born and that it cannot be ignored. I keep up our 80-year-old family home in my hometown and go there every two months. I can see that it has everything (a fridge, washer, inverter, and motor pumps) working perfectly, that we need to visit whenever we choose and remain pleasantly.

Today, there are several options to advance our beloved country by residing overseas, and nobody opposes that either. There are many things that can be investigated and carried out for the benefit of our country by everyone who is interested in it. Do not forget that nothing will prevent India from growing and succeeding.

[Dr.Car]

Originally Posted by Amrik Singh

EB1, is the shortest route for acquiring Permanent Residence in US.
I have always advocated for new aspirants to try to meet the criteria and apply through this channel.

But we have to keep in mind that EB 1 costs an Arm and Leg even going by the standards of 'wealthy' people and thus renders it to be a very difficult choice for most people in India. And,, I suppose due to this very reason the wait times are way lesser.

But, an interesting observation in this case is that the wait times for Chinese nationals are still higher even in this segment (EB 1) and this indicates that a lot larger no. of people have money to invest into this programme as compared to Indians!

[Amrik Singh]

Originally Posted by Dr.Car

But we have to keep in mind that EB 1 costs an Arm and Leg even going by the standards of 'wealthy' people and thus renders it to be a very difficult choice for most people in India.

Probably you are confusing with Investor Visa. No ! It doesn't cost much except the Lawyers fees, who files petition for you.
Yes ! Only Professionals, with higher qualities can avail this.

[Dr.Car]

Originally Posted by Amrik Singh

Probably you are confusing with Investor Visa. No ! It doesn't cost much except the Lawyers fees, who files petition for you.
Yes ! Only Professionals, with higher qualities can avail this.

Yeah! I thought you were taking about Investor visa since it is also called as EB visa. I think it is EB -5 visa. Sorry for the confusion!

Could you please provide with a link to EB 1 visa rules etc. Thanks

[Waheedy]

And apart from all the factors mentioned before, religious intolerance and toxicity in our general society against certain communities is another factor for the exodus of the educated and well doing individuals from amongst them as well, which is nonetheless heart braking to see, but with no solution in foresight.

Being one myself, my concerns for the overall safety of all my near and dear ones, lies beyond the issues of gender, age or emotions.

I belong to a family who was at the forefront of India's freedom struggle and a staunch opponent of its partition, but when every tom, dick and harry gets the authority to question your patriotism, it is time to move on.

[Amrik Singh]

Originally Posted by RGK

But keep in mind that the roots will always be here, so plan to return in 15 years at most. I really believe that here is where we were born and that it cannot be ignored.

Migration from Punjab towards West started when British had to lay Railway line from port town Mombasa to Capital city Nairobi. With this newly found wealth they constructed mansions in Punjab, which are all taking dust because their next generation never came back for them. Those who have part of their family here are unfortunately tied in litigation for the same land.
Even those who moved to cities from villages within India had to leave their parents and kin behind. The so called roots are very short lived - probably a generation only. Moving for better prospects is a chance which should not be missed.
Even those returning to India from their new abodes come as long as there is a family to care for them. By next generation, the bonds would weaken. I am not in favour of abandoning the parents who have sacrificed their lives to make you reach new heights, but the same should not let restrain you from giving a better future to your children. A balance between the past and future has to be very carefully crafted.

Originally Posted by Dr.Car

Yeah! I thought you were taking about Investor visa since it is also called as EB visa. I think it is EB -5 visa. Sorry for the confusion!

Could you please provide with a link to EB 1 visa rules etc. Thanks

EB stands for Employment Based which is apart from Family based.
Here is the link to official website for EB1 Visa which further has sub categories of eb1a, eb1b and eb1c

https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the...reference-eb-1

Even if you do not feel that you do not qualify, but are close to a particular category, consult a lawyer who can Petition in a way that you may qualify.
Good Luck !

[mohansrides]

This thread is (understandably) veering into entrenched philosophical positions. Just for clarity and without speaking for anyone else, let me clarify some positions.

Leaving India for foreign shores used to be lucrative at one point; especially for those who had either no education or who had top notch brand name qualifications.

Eg: That Gulf worker who spent decades in monastic existence to make sure that his family in India lived comfortably.

Eg: The IIT graduates and some doctors from the 70s and 80s and even some from the 90s, who struck it big in the US; and are now movers and shakers in their micro and macro economies.

Eg: The hordes of average IT workers who made it to the US shores on that big wave of labour required to address the Y2K problem. Most of them are superbly wealthy now.

The argument against leaving today is based on two prongs of thought.

The economic disparity between India and the rest of the world has largely narrowed, or has even vanished in some scenarios. In many respects, there is ample opportunity in India provided that we calibrate our thinking and expectations.

Developed countries, be it the US, or the EU, or AU, have put in place very stringent immigration road blocks. Just for everyone's reference, the post that re-kindled this discussion was post# 1602 from 11th April. At that time, everything looked on the up and up for tech workers who decided to immigrate. Now, just 7 months later we are seeing truck loads of H1B guys who are starring into the abyss. Even those who haven't lost their jobs are undoubtedly living on knife's edge wondering if they will be next.

To be clear, the loss of job itself is NOT the problem. Given time, that can be remedied. The real issue is the paralyzing and immediate absence of legal status brought on by job losses. Such a situation will not allow you to function even to take remedial measures to counter your misfortune. What's more, your family and dependents who played no part in your decision to go abroad will be deeply affected. They will simply be living their lives to wake up one day to find themselves wrested away from everything that they know and hold dear. This is not as uncommon as people think and when it happens, it can be life shattering for those innocents. Personally, I always wonder as to when people will come to realise that navigating the immigration maze in developed countries has absolutely nothing to do with your talent, hard work, and imagination. Your fate is going to be governed by circumstances and the whims of other powerful people. You have absolutely no control at all.

Originally Posted by Samurai

https://Youtu.be/Y43Lq8kW4GQ

Case in point is this video. To be clear, this video is not even talking about people who lose their jobs. The H1B guys in this discussion could very well still be employed and then have their kids grow out of status. And contrary to the subject of discussion of this video, I drew different lessons. Jon Stewart (who I like and respect) is rightly outraged by the situation of H1B kids who outgrow dependent status. But, the real lesson here is not that such a problem exists or that Jon is outraged. The real take away is that Jon and his panelists are helpless. They can sympathise with you. But, they simply cannot help you. No matter how many friends and well-wishers you have, you are on your own. This is what you need to drill into your mind when it comes to immigration.

Just briefly, let us examine why this is the case. I mean, if everyone knows that Indian H1Bs add value, why then is it so hard to fix the immigration system to help them? The answer is that the problem, while being big for you and me, is not a problem that is immediate and pressing for Americans and for the US government. If they don't fix it, nothing hugely unfortunate is going to happen to them. As far as they are concerned, you are a full grown adult who accepted a deal to work on H1B knowing full well what the negatives could be. So, your cries of agony after your job loss are not for them to address. Your family is state-less? Your kids have to quit school and the only life they know? So what? You made the deal; now you live by it and self-deport. That is how they see it.

So, emigrate from India if you wish. But, don't do so because you think that life is a bed of roses in other countries. You will simply be exchanging one set of problems for another. And worse, you will be putting yourself in a position where you have far lesser rights to address problems in your life than if you had been in your own country.

The nicely positive posts about a couple of guys who immigrated to Netherlands may not be typical. More importantly, they could just be experiencing positive phases of life given their youth and relative lack of distressing family liabilities. Things change as you and your kids and your parents / in-laws get older. All sorts of requirements and limitations start to rear their heads. Money can address some of these requirements; but many require more than that.

Whatever decision you make, do it with your eyes open. And definitely don't do it because you think India is terrible. That would be a huge mistake.

I will close with one personal anecdote. On one of those H1B stamping trips to India, I met a medical doctor who had emigrated to the US in the 70s. He had travelled then as a graduate student to the U of Wisconsin. At Milwaukee airport, his graduate advisor had met him with a garland and welcomed him to the US. When I heard this, I thought about my own entry into the US at the cusp of the millennium. I was a scrawny kid who was struggling to unload a big suitcase from the belt at baggage claim. I looked at a burly cop standing right next to me and requested his help. He barked, "Who do you think I am? The effing porter?". Then he turned away. This should pretty much convey the contrasts in experience between educated immigrants in the 70s and 80s and that of their juniors.

P. S.

Yes, I am fully aware that almost all my arguments have been centered on material success. To me that is the only success that matters. Money may not guarantee you happiness or safety. But, not having it guarantees you a lack of both. If one can't provide for one's family and keep them rooted and safe, there is very little value to one's life. This may not be the only truth. But, it is the only one that matters.

[Latheesh]

Originally Posted by mohansrides

So, emigrate from India if you wish. But, don't do so because you think that life is a bed of roses in other countries.

+1
Yes. Don't expect everything goes your way in your new country. Few bad experiences are enough to make you rethink about your decision to emigrate.

Originally Posted by mohansrides

The nicely positive posts about a couple of guys who immigrated to Netherlands may not be typical.

I was fortunate to experience nasty -ve things first in Europe (West).

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by mohansrides

This thread is (understandably) veering into entrenched philosophical positions. Just for clarity and without speaking for anyone else, let me clarify some positions.

[/indent]The argument against leaving today is based on two prongs of thought.[indent] Money may not guarantee you happiness or safety. But, not having it guarantees you a lack of both. If one can't provide for one's family and keep them rooted and safe, there is very little value to one's life. This may not be the only truth. But, it is the only one that matters.

My Lord! Mohan! If that is indeed your name.
I have not enjoyed reading a post as much as I just enjoyed reading yours, in quite a while.
Exceedingly well articulated, Hard hitting. Hard nosed. Factual. Honest. Sensible. And casts the scales from one’s eyes perfectly.

And you are absolutely right. Let’s the rest of us here, not act all mealy-mouthed and holier-than-the-next-bloke. The facts as you have laid out here, are absolutely bang on. Best to eschew all those rose-tinted illusions and face the facts. Thank you!

[G20Rider]

I left India long time back and have lived as an NRI in two different countries.

My take on this is very simple. If you have an opportunity to move to a foreign country, just do it. Not for the money, but for the experience.

Money can be made anywhere, given one is competitive enough. But the life experiences of living in different lands and cultures cannot be bought with money nor as a tourist.

India is our home, it will always be there as a safe nest should you want to return. But fly high and wide, explore the world. There is no fun in staying in your nest forever, however cozy or safe it be.

[Imran.Syed]

Originally Posted by mohansrides

Whatever decision you make, do it with your eyes open. And definitely don't do it because you think India is terrible. That would be a huge mistake.

The ugly side of immigration/emigration is something I have very closely experienced, fortunately not personally.
The family suffers the most, and the word stateless is 100% accurate to describe how they end up feeling.

I do not agree with a lot of things you have said here, but you did give a disclaimer that you are speaking for yourself.

I will be sharing this thread and your post to people who think about migrating.