[ruturaj001]

Originally Posted by dheer4

Hey T-BHP'ians!,

I want to seek advice from the members as I have plans to move to either the US or the European Union to pursue masters in Data Science next year.

My profile is really good and I'm pretty sure I can get into good universities across the US and Europe.

The main dilemma I'm currently facing is the uncertainty of H1-B after graduation and the fat tuition fee in the US. Even if I get an Assistantship after a semester, I don't want to take on lot of debt to pursue a masters which may leave me with little to no savings after loan if H1-B isn't picked (3 Year OPT).

I want to ask the members if the European Union is worth immigrating to and also the growth aspects in the tech field. I was mostly looking at Netherlands, Austria, Germany for universities. I know the US pays really well, but have no exposure or knowledge about these countries. Also, as the EU has strict data protection laws, I really don't know the future of data science in these countries.

I would appreciate any guidance and help!

I would suggest you to start with GRE preparation. Depending on score if you can get in to good university, you should be able to cover cost of education and make some money on top of it, even if you don't get H1B. You also get one year of CPT if you decide to use it.

I did 3 semesters (1st one was bridge courses which didn't count), then I got internship that paid for next semester, one more internship that paid for my trip with family all over east coast and last project. Salary progression is pretty good in US, you won't find that in European countries. But you would find better work life balance. So choose your poison. I would recommend you to join teamblind forum for more insight in technical jobs.

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by aneezan

We moved to the Netherlands last year, hence, thought of sharing what we've gone through over the past 14 to 15 months.

Thank you for sharing the experience.

Originally Posted by dailydriver

But I am regularly told that these Indian communities are what sustains them emotionally in the far off lands and that I, living in India, wouldn't perhaps be able to appreciate the importance of that.

From my personal experience, it’s the opposite. For short-term stays/assignments, staying in the bubble (for e.g., the Indian or state community) may help, but if the move is with long-term plans, it’s best to break the bubble and spread out. The dependency on staying in your own group will start diminishing, and you will see the emotional connection happening with the place and the people. My sister moved to Australia 10 years ago and is now a citizen of that country. Her circle is just 10-15 Kerala families, and the external exposure is limited to formal interactions with colleagues at work. Though now a citizen there, Australians are still foreigners for her (and the family), and the passport conversion was just a matter of convenience

Originally Posted by turbowhistle

It's a good feeling but at the same time stops you from intergrating or understanding the culture of the country you are in.
We had the same initial phase when we moved to Germany 4 years back and almost several months later I realised we were in an Indian bubble friends/community wise and had to make conscious effort to break out of that.

Absolutely. And I am sure, the way you see, and experience Germany drastically changed after that conscious effort.

Originally Posted by turbowhistle

I feel at home equally in Berlin as I would in Mumbai these days.

Can completely relate to this. When I touchdown at Cochin airport, I get that feeling of homecoming and all the associated nostalgia. And in the same way, traveling anywhere and then landing at Singapore Changi evokes the same back-to-home / base kind of feeling, sans the nostalgia part

Originally Posted by dheer4

I want to ask the members if the European Union is worth immigrating to and also the growth aspects in the tech field. I was mostly looking at Netherlands, Austria, Germany for universities. I know the US pays really well, but have no exposure or knowledge about these countries. Also, as the EU has strict data protection laws, I really don't know the future of data science in these countries.

EU may be the best bet for you with all its stringent efforts on data protection – data will always be a big-ticket area there.

[Amrik Singh]

Originally Posted by dheer4

Hey T-BHP'ians!,

I want to seek advice from the members as I have plans to move to either the US or the European Union to pursue masters in Data Science next year.

My profile is really good and I'm pretty sure I can get into good universities across the US and Europe.

The main dilemma I'm currently facing is the uncertainty of H1-B after graduation and the fat tuition fee in the US.

Why do you feel that MS is the end of education ? Why not think beyond MS and to pursue Doctorate ?
Maybe I am wrong but, Students going to North America or Europe find a Graduate course just enough for them to land into a job and eventually permanent residence. I would not discuss about Europe, but can compare Canada and US.
Definitely, it is easy to get admission to a University in Canada, tuition and living expenses are lower, earning while learning has more scope, getting a job is easy, obtaining PR is quicker - so is the Salary afterwards.
Comparatively, in US admission to a good University is difficult, tuition and living expenses are higher and worst - getting Green Card through HB-1 is a Herculean challenge. However, the Salaries are way higher than Canada. Having spent two years (4 Semesters) in US, with a MS, first thing students see is a lucrative job and falls for it to recover the expenses incurred.
Question here is - Why not pursue PhD ? Research Students in US get more stipend than the average salary of Canada. Yes, it is another 5 years (approximately), but definitely a time well spent.
Benefit ? Well, a good track, some well read papers published and you can easily go through EB1 approval. Once approved, it takes under an year for GC (for Indians)
I can say this being proud father of two daughters who moved to US for MS, and ended up with Doctorate. While one has already obtained GC, other has got approval and is in queue for GC. Most of their colleagues are PhD and following this pattern.
My advice is to aim for US and target PhD, not just MS.
Apologies, if anyone is offended by some blunt questions posed here.

[ulag62442]

Originally Posted by aneezan

We moved to the Netherlands last year, hence, thought of sharing what we've gone through over the past 14 to 15 months.

I have been having thoughts of moving to the Netherlands and EU and the very things you mentioned as a reason for the move are what made me decide to do so as well. My main concern area is healthcare. My 5-year-old daughter falls sick here we can quickly see a doctor who is able to refer her to specialists and other treatments quickly. I have heard of stories where people have had serious issues undiagnosed for a long time because they couldn't get specialist access quickly. How valid is this concern? Seeing a large number of Indians in EU countries I do think it's not a big issue but it is concerning to me.

[aneezan]

Originally Posted by ulag62442

How valid is this concern? .

Not sure if you have already moved to NL. Healthcare on the whole is very good, however, how you avail it is the "issue" to us(Indians) who are used to dropping in at the Doctor's(or specialist's) door for every small health problem.
One of the first things you do when you arrive is get a health insurance and register yourself and family at the local General Physician. The first GP visit will be to discuss about your health history, hence, in-case anyone of you have a condition which requires specialist consultation, that will be taken into record. This will help when you later call the GP and tell them incase you need help with this condition. They will have your records and the overall process will be smoother. You will be able to get an appointment with a specialist quicker.
But just illness can be a vague term. Hence, GPs usually treat that word with some standard responses. For your daughter, in case its a fever, they may usually advise the normal pediatric paracetamols and monitor for 2-3 days. If it doesn't reduce, then you can call them again and get an appointment. At-least this was the case with my 4 year old.

[BrokenHW]

Millionaires are leaving Russia, China, and India for the UAE, Singapore, and Australia

[Mustang_Boss]

Originally Posted by BrokenHW

Millionaires are leaving Russia, China, and India for the UAE, Singapore, and Australia

The numbers always were like this.
People, who can, will move to places where the law & order, Services & life style are good.

Who can? the one's who have money can move easily and these countries seek the rich. It was always like this. That's one of the reason why our system tries to emulate to western standards in law or other areas.

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by BrokenHW

Millionaires are leaving Russia, China, and India for the UAE, Singapore, and Australia

Post COVID lockdowns, a lot of rich Indians moved a bunch of their assets to the UAE. They were followed by many Europeans. Over the last few months, so much Russian money has poured into the UAE so fast that average house prices have gone up 70% in one year. Most investment professionals such as wealth managers and advisors have already made enough money for the next financial year, and are now looking at the numbers for '24-'25.

[Samurai]

The green card wait for an Indian MBA is 150 years?

https://youtu.be/Y43Lq8kW4GQ

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Samurai

The green card wait for an Indian MBA is 150 years?

At the risk of getting drawn, quartered and hung on Team BHP I'd say this is good news. Less brain drain.

One of my kids wants to settle in UK/USA {<emoji shuddering>}. My advice to him has been - your career will span the coming 50 years. Pick a country that is on a gentle climb {India} and not one where the peak is well behind it {UK} or one which is losing ground relative to the rest {USA} and is draining its coffers fighting wars it will never win. But of course I understand, grudgingly, that different things motivate each of us.

[ninjatalli]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Pick a country that is on a gentle climb {India} and not one where the peak is well behind it {UK} or one which is losing ground relative to the rest {USA} and is draining its coffers fighting wars it will never win. But of course I understand, grudgingly, that different things motivate each of us.

I would think this is old-school thought process.

The focus of today would be to pick a company/corporation that is on a climb and not stagnant or on the slippery/downward slope instead of country.

Many of my peers are by chance or by plan already doing it. That's probably why one will still hear of "great job opportunities" in a stagnant country like the UK because that particular firm is still investing or engaging actively in that country.

Example: An alum batchmate started her career in a global MNC (still working there) in India; shifted to Europe and worked out of there for half a decade and then shifted to South Africa & then US for a couple of years and now is in UK. Great job (satisfaction), good career growth and great exposure. To my limited knowledge, she (and her family) have had the choice to settle in any of these countries for a longer term if needed.

[Acharya]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

My advice to him has been - your career will span the coming 50 years. Pick a country that is on a gentle climb {India} and not one where the peak is well behind it {UK} or one which is losing ground relative to the rest {USA} and is draining its coffers fighting wars it will never win.

That's one more compelling reason to stay back in India.

Most kids in my son's school are planning to go abroad for graduation. I see kids around in my society, who do not even know any single Indian native languages but are fluent in French/Spanish and obviously English. At times, its hard to swallow.
How could we as society not value our heritage, our culture, our languages sufficiently, to NOT pass it on to the next generations. Perhaps, people only think about career, progress and monitory growth for kids.

It continues to intrigue me to no end

[DigitalOne]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

My advice to him has been - your career will span the coming 50 years. Pick a country that is on a gentle climb {India} and not one where the peak is well behind it {UK} or one which is losing ground relative to the rest {USA} and is draining its coffers fighting wars it will never win.

On similar lines, this is what Shantanu Narayen, CEO of Adobe, said a couple of days back.

Adobe CEO: If I was growing up right now, no way I’d leave Hyderabad to go to USA

[AltoLXI]

Originally Posted by Acharya

Most kids in my son's school are planning to go abroad for graduation. I see kids around in my society, who do not even know any single Indian native languages but are fluent in French/Spanish and obviously English. At times, its hard to swallow.
How could we as society not value our heritage, our culture, our languages sufficiently, to NOT pass it on to the next generations. Perhaps, people only think about career, progress and monitory growth for kids.

Nothing wrong in sending kids abroad for studies. Given the state of higher education here, it is natural for parents/kids to look out for better opportunities to learn.

The problem starts when one does not return back to the country and "settle" in West, get GC/PR and ignore the motherland. The West is such a powerful magnet, if one may call that, it is difficult not to get seduced by the riches, lifestyle and comforts. The entire system is designed to attract the talent from other countries and make their countries best in all aspects. Isn't this a sophisticated version of slavery when blacks were brought to work in sugarcane plantations?

It hurts when the brightest Indian minds, who are now settled in the West, help make those countries rich whereas their mother country languishes in poverty and perpetually being dubbed as "developing".

On the flip side, the fault lies with the prevalent systems in our country as well. Whether it is the education system, job scenario, corruption, enabling the entrepreneurship, infrastructure, much needs to done to bell the proverbial cat. Instead of narrow religious nationalism, what we need is economic nationalism.

China, for instance, wants its people to study/work in West and return back to build the country. Now it is growling at the West. Something on that lines is needed?

Can we dream that one day we should have a situation where Americans have to wait for years to get PR in India?

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by AltoLXI

Can we dream that one day we should have a situation where Americans have to wait for years to get PR in India?

They have to wait forever. There is no such thing as PR in India. It is really, really difficult to immigrate into India.