[silversteed]

Originally Posted by Samurai

... buzzwords in the resume.

So, I asked the meaning of standard deviation...

Even if you explain the logic to them, they don't know how to implement it in language of their preference.

... 3... out of 67 students. I found it very believable.

I am not in the IT industry, but I am in total agreement with everything written here.

Here's my story. Since we are a fairly large organisation, recruitment of fresh grads happen centrally and the powers that be "allot" new recruits randomly to various teams. One such person had scored 90% above in the diploma and engineering courses, both done from a well-known institution, in the same specialisation. The individual was struggling to get a grasp on something as basic as logic gates (AND, OR, XOR, NAND), and was all over the place when asked to analyse a rather simple design - it would've taken 19 years old me (not the brightest, mind you, and no diploma either) fresh into the 3rd sem lecture, about half an hour. There is willingness to learn and correct mistakes but what we get are empty vessels making a lot noise and we have to fill them in.

[srini1785]

I had written about this topic in some other thread. I once interviewed a Mech Graduate. I asked him "Which drill bit would you use for a 1/8" BSP Thread?". To be honest, even I did not know and all I was expecting from him was "I don't remember but I will check with the Design data book" but instead he simply stared at me. There was this other instance, an EEE graduate and the question was "Transformer primary is rated at 100V, 10A secondary is rated 200V what is the rated current?", again a direct stare.

[Turbohead]

Originally Posted by Samurai

When you test the programming skills of fresh CS grads, it gets worse. Even if you explain the logic to them, they don't know how to implement it in language of their preference

Meanwhile, we have a 6th semester CS student doing paid internship with us. He was chosen because he could code well. I asked him how many people in his class can actually code. He said 3... out of 67 students. I found it very believable.

I'm curious, what tier college is this? What do these students do in an interview usually?

Also, shouldn't logic enable a person to Google and create some code? Why do you expect them to know code syntax? I know a lot of folks who can only do what they're told but never come up with a solution. Isn't the other way more desirable?

[clevermax]

Originally Posted by silversteed

I am not in the IT industry, but I am in total agreement with everything written here.

Here's my story. Since we are a fairly large organisation, recruitment of fresh grads happen centrally and the powers that be "allot" new recruits randomly to various teams. One such person had scored 90% above in the diploma and engineering courses, both done from a well-known institution, in the same specialisation. The individual was struggling to get a grasp on something as basic as logic gates (AND, OR, XOR, NAND), and was all over the place when asked to analyse a rather simple design - it would've taken 19 years old me (not the brightest, mind you, and no diploma either) fresh into the 3rd sem lecture, about half an hour. There is willingness to learn and correct mistakes but what we get are empty vessels making a lot noise and we have to fill them in.

Originally Posted by srini1785

I had written about this topic in some other thread. I once interviewed a Mech Graduate. I asked him "Which drill bit would you use for a 1/8" BSP Thread?". To be honest, even I did not know and all I was expecting from him was "I don't remember but I will check with the Design data book" but instead he simply stared at me. There was this other instance, an EEE graduate and the question was "Transformer primary is rated at 100V, 10A secondary is rated 200V what is the rated current?", again a direct stare.

As someone who's working in the IT industry for 2 and a half decades now, I can fully agree to the views here. Freshmen don't have any clue about the what/how/whys of a lot of things. Here are my observations, putting them very concisely.

• They can't easily convert their ideas into code, if they have an idea to begin with.
• This is the age of Gen-AI and they struggle to leverage capabilities offered by powerful LLMs that can greatly assist them with their coding tasks. Reason? they can't type using a keyboard, their WPM on a physical keyboard is pathetic, and even if its good, they can't articulate what they are actually thinking, and what they need.
• Without a solid foundation of software engineering skills (not coding skills), it will be difficult for any fresh graduate to have a loving relationship with software code and development in general. Todays academics or induction trainings given within companies doesn't really put the required focus on these fundamentals.
• The way in which GenZ sees a 9-to-5 is way different than how GenX saw it. The moment there's some amount of healthy stress/demand-to-deliver on them, they start thinking about quitting.

[m8002?]

Originally Posted by Samurai

es, mainly buzzwords in the resume. Now everyone has AI/ML, tensorflow, numpy and what not in every paragraph of the resume. Every project and mini-project is about AI/ML. They would have also completed additional courses on AI/ML and wish to be Data Analyst or Data Scientist.

AI/ML project is the Library Information System of 90s and 2000s. :-).

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by Turbohead

I'm curious, what tier college is this? What do these students do in an interview usually?

College doesn't matter anymore. I have collaborated with NIT/IIT grads of similar poor caliber, where we have to spell out common linux commands along with space. We provide Visual Studio Code with IntelliSense, but no Internet. We give them problems that simply tests their logical thinking. Even some 4th tier college grads have passed our coding tests.

Originally Posted by Turbohead

Also, shouldn't logic enable a person to Google and create some code?

I might as well hire chatgpt then.

See, it is very simple. I am looking for people who can code. Those who have interest in coding will learn coding before they get out of college with a CS degree. Those who don't learn by that time are that kind who will do something else.

[sagaranjos]

I share the views expressed above around the sheer unemployability of fresh engineering grads (around computer skills)

The engineering degree itself does not seem to be adding any value. Why are the firms still looking for engineering graduates?

Also why aren't more companies setting up their own training facilities for non-engineering graduates? Cheaper than getting your full time employees to train these freshers

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by sagaranjos

The engineering degree itself does not seem to be adding any value. Why are the firms still looking for engineering graduates?

Most technical work in IT industry doesn't need college degree, let alone engineering degree. But we have fallen into this vicious loop of JEE/CET+BE+MBA as the only game in town.

My last 3 hires have been non-BE, for technical roles. I have stopped differentiating between BEs and the 3-year degree holders. I have noticed that non-BE degree holders trying to get into IT usually have extra hunger to succeed since they know most companies don't give them a fair chance.

Originally Posted by sagaranjos

Also why aren't more companies setting up their own training facilities for non-engineering graduates? Cheaper than getting your full time employees to train these freshers

Sridhar Vembu of Zoho figured this out 15 years ago. They build their own IT professionals, by hiring 10+2 students and training them according to their aptitude.

Heard of Zoho Mafia? Zoho ex-employees have created so many successful companies too.

However, good techies don't need training facilities. The internet has so many resources for gaining any number of skills. If they have discipline and ambition, sky is the limit.

[IndieGooner]

Originally Posted by sagaranjos

The engineering degree itself does not seem to be adding any value. Why are the firms still looking for engineering graduates?

A big reason could be the H1B visa requirement for a 4 year degree. Indian IT giants are no longer majorly dependent on placing people at US client locations but the old practices might be hard to remove.

[ZenMaster]

Most of these students are intelligent, but not smart. Its not entirely their fault either. They join engineering because its the default option as far as Undergraduate degree courses go and IT/CS is the current default option within the default option. They have no one to guide them. They don't really know what the industry is like and what they are really supposed to learn. Everyone is just following the crowd.

Most of them don't know the What, How & Why of software engineering because it was never their interest. They have either been languishing with no interest in studies or anything or slaving away in a pile of books with their only goal being to top the next Exam.

Most of them would give you a blank stare if you asked them what the hope to achieve in life.

Most of these students are intelligent enough or coached enough to end up in a Particular engineering dept. Like CS/IT but their natural capabilities might lie somewhere else because of which they are either not driven enough to put in the work to be good in their field or just don't have the capability to take to the next level.i.e. beyond their syllabus.

But I would still urge recruiters to not give up on these souls. Most of them just need to be motivated to become better. Maybe they won't change the world but they will keep it moving. The good ones will come up on their own without your effort and you will automatically find them. Just keep the money ready.

[OffRoadFun]

Surprising how some self proclaimed excellent engineers, founders and recruiters declare the general demise of education level in "today's young" generation based on some anecdotal evidence.

College name does not matter! Wow! Many aspirants of so called tier 1 and tier 2 engineering colleges will be so happy to hear that. They don't need to slog that hard now that all colleges are equally bad!

A vast majority of engineering students is unemployable and it has been the case for decades as far as I can remember. There is nothing new about it. As for putting AI/ML in their resumes, they are just following the fad, like many companies on Wall Street had been doing that lately to get that AI boost.

As someone who is currently hiring for real AI/ML positions, vast number of resumes received are trash worthy if I can say that, but it's been like that always. But some of the NCGs have been impressive to say the least. And I would say quality of NCGs has gone up in last 10 yeara. And last but not the least, many of the good ones are from so called tier 1 and tier 2 colleges though there are good ones from others too. Also, the kind of candidates one attracts also depends on what employer pays them, good ones are unlikely to join a Lala shop whose only objective is to squeeze the employees, looking for cheap labor.

I am not an elitist but to deny a correlation between capabilities of engineers and their colleges would be plain wrong. And yes, there are many more extremely smart people graduating from outside the so called premier colleges but statistically, the correlation mentioned is undeniable.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by OffRoadFun

Surprising how some self proclaimed excellent engineers, founders and recruiters declare the general demise of education level in "today's young" generation based on some anecdotal evidence.

New to the thread are you? Of course, you are. This is a 15 year old thread, it has long moved from anecdotal to empirical.

Originally Posted by OffRoadFun

College name does not matter! Wow! Many aspirants of so called tier 1 and tier 2 engineering colleges will be so happy to hear that. They don't need to slog that hard now that all colleges are equally bad!

No, that is not what is being said. You are confusing college quality with candidate quality. Just because someone attended a tier 1 college, they are not necessarily good. For too long many employers recruited under this assumption. George W Bush attended Yale and Harvard, didn't turn him into a genius.

Originally Posted by OffRoadFun

A vast majority of engineering students is unemployable and it has been the case for decades as far as I can remember.

As I said, this thread is 15 years old.

Originally Posted by OffRoadFun

I am not an elitist but to deny a correlation between capabilities of engineers and their colleges would be plain wrong. And yes, there are many more extremely smart people graduating from outside the so called premier colleges but statistically, the correlation mentioned is undeniable.

I have worked with people from all kinds of colleges. I have the found the correlation chart to be quite random. This is primarily because the skill that gets you into a tier-1 college is not the same skill that make you successful at work. Some of the best engineers I worked with are from 3/4 tier colleges, and I also know some average/terrible ones from IIT/NIT.

So, I always look at the person, see what he/she can do, instead of getting impressed by college pedigree.

[padmrajravi]

Originally Posted by Samurai

I have worked with people from all kinds of colleges. I have the found the correlation chart to be quite random. This is primarily because the skill that gets you into a tier-1 college is not the same skill that make you successful at work. Some of the best engineers I worked with are from 3/4 tier colleges, and I also know some average/terrible ones from IIT/NIT.

My organization hires from all tiers of colleges and I find the correlation between college tier and candidate quality strong enough. Of course, every now and then, we find someone from a lower tier college exceling over people from tier 1 college, but that is an abnormality rather than a pattern. Take 100 people with good grades from a Tier 1 college and take another 100 with good grades from a lower Tier college, you will have a higher probability of getting good candidates from the first pool. I haven't found any evidence against this assumption in the last decade. The companies that I worked for had a two tier salary structure based on college reputation.

[V0id2003]

Since there are many TeamBHPians here who are senior IT people, could someone give me a few tips as a student who will be starting my placements in 1-2 months. I have attached my resume below , any criticism is appreciated. Thank you

[SchnelleKurven]

Originally Posted by Samurai

After a gap of 5 years, I was hiring freshers again... Which means I have to resume contributing to this thread.

Meanwhile, we have a 6th semester CS student doing paid internship with us. He was chosen because he could code well. I asked him how many people in his class can actually code. He said 3... out of 67 students. I found it very believable.

Wow, echo the feeling. Some years back I went as an interview panelist to a well known old IIT. The company I was representing was so called ‘dream’ day 0 company on the IIT Campuses, so chances of kids tanking interviews are low.

As a round 1 panelist, I was to act as filter for the senior panelist by conducting group discussions (GD’s) and round 1 interviews. One candidate from chemical engineering branch, made it through the GD and came for the interview with an impressive project in the CV.

Normally you start with softball questions to ease the students in.

Me: hey your project on the CV looks interesting : design of a new age explosive. But I am a relative novice in this field so can you start with what is TNT wrt explosives?

Candidate: huh ?

Me: (huh?) TNT , the gold standard reference used to measure relative strength of explosives?

(TNT stands for trinitro toluene , which any science/ chemical engineering student must know in their sleep)

Candidate: I have heard about it. Yes.

Me: (what!) ok , so what’s TNT ?

Candidate: it’s something to do with toluene.

Me: can you draw the structure of TNT ?

Candidate: It was some semesters ago , I am
Unable to recollect.

Me: ok then, how did you design the explosive in your project?

Candidate: I used a software, plugged in the data and it gave me an output.

Me: ok then, what was the thing you did specifically?

Candidate: I learnt to use the software and put in the parameters that my guide gave

Me: ok, so this explosive is new age as it has been designed by a software. Has it been synthesised or tested ?

Candidate: No, but am sure it will work.

Me: thank you, do let us know the TNT equivalent yield when it works


Jokes apart , I have realised that you better hire for learning ability , positive attitude and people skills. Technical skills might be moulded.