[sgiitk]

@sam_boy I am afraid what you want is a distant dream. Now we the quality of teachers has taken a nose dive, and demand has gone up. Also, Industrial R & D is taking a lot of PhDs. Let may say there were two PGM holders (topper of all branches in an IIT) of 1968 who went for academics. Today, zilch. Virtually none of the PG students joining IITs are from IITs or NITs, or other elite colleges.

I have a feeling that there are two factors - poor rewards, financial and social. I after 34+ years, now at the top of the Professors scale in an IIT, am getting less than a high ranking B.Tech. from here. Also, respect for teaching as a profession has gone down.

For the past few years, I have stopped encouraging (in fact discourage) my students from joining academics.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

Today, zilch. Virtually none of the PG students joining IITs are from IITs or NITs, or other elite colleges.

IITs should have JEE even for PG and PhD, and have an age limit of 26 for PhD candidates. That will virtually eliminate pedigree seeking, middle aged or low quality candidates that queue up for PG and PhD at IITs.

[lancer_rit]

Originally Posted by Samurai

IITs should have JEE even for PG and PhD, and have an age limit of 26 for PhD candidates. That will virtually eliminate pedigree seeking, middle aged or low quality candidates that queue up for PG and PhD at IITs.

Well the JEE was 'compromised' itself, when the objective+detailed question format was replaced by objective only :-( So, learning techniques on how to eliminate answers to determine the right one quickly, rather than solving the problem to get the answer gets a boost! Besides, deeper application of principles to find solutions have gone out of the window as such questions don't fit the objective paradigm typically.

[NetfreakBombay]

Originally Posted by Samurai

IITs should have JEE even for PG and PhD, and have an age limit of 26 for PhD candidates. That will virtually eliminate pedigree seeking, middle aged or low quality candidates that queue up for PG and PhD at IITs.

That wont change anything. No-one who cleared JEE joins M.Tech (at least not in Comp Sci).

Doing M.Tech neither teaches you anything nor gives you better salaries.

[Saanil]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

@sam_boy I am afraid what you want is a distant dream. Now we the quality of teachers has taken a nose dive, and demand has gone up. Also, Industrial R & D is taking a lot of PhDs. Let may say there were two PGM holders (topper of all branches in an IIT) of 1968 who went for academics. Today, zilch. Virtually none of the PG students joining IITs are from IITs or NITs, or other elite colleges.

I have a feeling that there are two factors - poor rewards, financial and social. I after 34+ years, now at the top of the Professors scale in an IIT, am getting less than a high ranking B.Tech. from here. Also, respect for teaching as a profession has gone down.

For the past few years, I have stopped encouraging (in fact discourage) my students from joining academics.

Originally Posted by Samurai

IITs should have JEE even for PG and PhD, and have an age limit of 26 for PhD candidates. That will virtually eliminate pedigree seeking, middle aged or low quality candidates that queue up for PG and PhD at IITs.

Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay

That wont change anything. No-one who cleared JEE joins M.Tech (at least not in Comp Sci).

Doing M.Tech neither teaches you anything nor gives you better salaries.

What a thread I have come across. I am a fresh engineering graduate out of IIT. I am a civil engineer. But I have taken up a job in Finance. There were many factors responsible for this. Ofcourse people get surprised when I tell them I have taken up a finance job after putting 5 years of my life in Civil engineering.

I think the problem starts at school level. The kind of education we people get in school is responsible for this. No actual understanding of concepts at all. I was a bright student (read - a person with good mugging power) in my school. After I gave my 10th boards my father asked me what next? I did not have answer to this question. I mean how am I supposed to decide what to do next when all I have done in school is to mug stupid dates, formulas and make stupid projects. So I took up what most of my friends where doing - Engineering. I went to Kota to prepare for JEE. Initially I had a very hard time there because the way I used to study in school did not work here. Formulas just could not be applied - one had to think and understand. I managed to do that with the help of my friends and teachers and cleared JEE.

All I want to say is - something needs to be done at school level. I have seen what happens during engineering to students. Most of my friends did not want to pursue civil engineering. Reasons:

1. Low paying jobs during placements. Civil companies do not offer the packages of Banks or Consultancies.
2. Loss of interest in the subject due to poor academics.

I would love to explore this topic. Nice to see a professor from IIT too (sgiitk) on this forum. Hope to have a good discussion in this one.

[Jaguar]

Originally Posted by Saanil

Most of my friends did not want to pursue civil engineering. Reasons:

1. Low paying jobs during placements. Civil companies do not offer the packages of Banks or Consultancies.

Was this the reason you too joined the Finance field?

[anku94]

Originally Posted by lancer_rit

Well the JEE was 'compromised' itself, when the objective+detailed question format was replaced by objective only :-( So, learning techniques on how to eliminate answers to determine the right one quickly, rather than solving the problem to get the answer gets a boost! Besides, deeper application of principles to find solutions have gone out of the window as such questions don't fit the objective paradigm typically.

Having sat for JEE a few months back, I disagree.

Yes, the subjective paper era favored intelligence over hardwork, and the objective paper era favors hardwork over intelligence, but decent amounts of both are required.

Students are encouraged to solve questions from last years' question papers, and most of the top 25000 (students who've got a chance to clear JEE on that given day) solve those, on their own (at least in good coaching institutes).

Of course there are those who don't solve the questions, by understanding the concepts properly, and reply on solutions from guides, but they don't get anywhere. They are not in the top 25000 who have the chance to clear the exam.

The only prime limitation if JEE, IMO, is that it tests candidates understanding and knowledge of high school science and not their passion for science and engineering, but that's a limitation no exam with a predefined syllabus can overcome. Another limitation is that some people started going to coaching institutes, and now everyone has to go to one if he wants to have a chance in clearing the exam. But that will happen if good colleges have barely enough seats to accept even 5% of the student pool.

Preparing for JEE is an interesting and learning experience, a simulation of real life in controlled environment perhaps, and you do learn a lot from it, even if you mess up on the exam day. Of course, this holds only if you're at the right place, not some place where they make you mug things up. I'm glad I appeared, and prepared 2 year for it, even if the result was not as good as I had hoped it would be.

Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay

That wont change anything. No-one who cleared JEE joins M.Tech (at least not in Comp Sci).

Are you saying that those who clear JEE don't go for higher studies, or that those who clear JEE don't opt for B.Tech. + M.Tech. dual degree at the time of admission? If it's the latter, I think you're mistaken. Plenty of people opt for CSE dual if they can't get CSE B.Tech. Holds true for every branch, in every engineering college.

[vivekiny2k]

Originally Posted by anku94

Are you saying that those who clear JEE don't go for higher studies, or that those who clear JEE don't opt for B.Tech. + M.Tech. dual degree at the time of admission? If it's the latter, I think you're mistaken. Plenty of people opt for CSE dual if they can't get CSE B.Tech. Holds true for every branch, in every engineering college.

The part in bold explains why. They are getting B tech, They really do not care if they get Mtech or PhD along with that.

As others explained, the problem is market conditions. M tech doesn't equip you any better for the job market or fetch you better salaries. What samurai is saying is put an entry barrier for PG and PhD to encourage better input quality, but as long as thee are no rewards, I don't see why would anyone want to cross those barriers.

[anku94]

Originally Posted by vivekiny2k

The part in bold explains why. They are getting B tech, They really do not care if they get Mtech or PhD along with that.

As others explained, the problem is market conditions. M tech doesn't equip you any better for the job market or fetch you better salaries. What samurai is saying is put an entry barrier for PG and PhD to encourage better input quality, but as long as thee are no rewards, I don't see why would anyone want to cross those barriers.

The other possibility could be that they want to keep their options open - maybe go to a foreign university or something. Better decisions can be taken considering the market conditions after 4 years as compared to now. At least, that was true in my case. But who are we kidding, not a lot of graduates want to go for higher studies.

PS : Is Masters really that useless? I've always wanted to go for higher studies.

[lancer_rit]

Originally Posted by anku94

Having sat for JEE a few months back, I disagree.

Yes, the subjective paper era favored intelligence over hardwork, and the objective paper era favors hardwork over intelligence, but decent amounts of both are required.

Well, don't get me wrong. Solving objective papers is not cakewalk esp with time pressure and the like, and also competing with the cream.
However, there is no doubt in my mind that the "mixed" format of the old JEE was much tougher and also pushed more balanced approach. It was still a lot of hardwork and its the same now.

Though there was greater application of concepts required then. And I did write the JEE successfully many moons back as well as appearing for objective only exams for DCE etc. The objective maths paper in the DCE entrance was harder than the JEE maths paper for a good part (quite surprisingly). But then, one can make some guesses, eliminations etc in the objective format
The JEE is no longer the same before, where "solving" the problems had the overwhelming emphasis - I like the problem solving approach over the "rote" learning approach for CBSE and other exams. The old JEE would for the most part eliminate people who didn't learn to apply concepts to reach solutions.

[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by Samurai

IITs should have JEE even for PG and PhD, and have an age limit of 26 for PhD candidates. That will virtually eliminate pedigree seeking, middle aged or low quality candidates that queue up for PG and PhD at IITs.

There is GATE for PG. Scores are mandatory. In EE at IITK the screening cut-off is 95th percentile or so.

As for PhD it is on oxygen, most IITs have walk-in interviews, in engineering as well as most branches of science! Regarding age I think even today the majority of PhDs in NIT's are IIT PhDs, who did the degree as sponsored candidates under the Quality Improvement Programme.

[srishiva]

I opted to go abroad after being successful in GATE. It was for the opportunities that a MS abroad would open up along with collaborative research with top companies. Should it really matter where one gets a good education and learning opportunities?

After working in a top communication R&D lab for long I realize that one of the biggest differences is the attitude of the Indian employees. They just refuse to continually learn even after a getting a well paying and exciting job. I have mentored quite a few grads from different nationalities in the U.S and its the attitude after getting a job that differs. Our whole system itself is to be blamed without singling out the ability.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay

That wont change anything. No-one who cleared JEE joins M.Tech (at least not in Comp Sci).

Doing M.Tech neither teaches you anything nor gives you better salaries.

Most people do M.Tech and PhD in IIT for one simple reason, so that they can claim to be IITians. The B.tech's from IIT don't need to do that.

Originally Posted by Saanil

I would love to explore this topic. Nice to see a professor from IIT too (sgiitk) on this forum. Hope to have a good discussion in this one.

He isn't the only one.

Originally Posted by anku94

Are you saying that those who clear JEE don't go for higher studies, or that those who clear JEE don't opt for B.Tech. + M.Tech. dual degree at the time of admission? If it's the latter, I think you're mistaken. Plenty of people opt for CSE dual if they can't get CSE B.Tech. Holds true for every branch, in every engineering college.

IITians (B.Tech) rarely do M.Tech/PhD in IIT. Probably because they will be totally outnumbered by mediocre classmates who are there for the pedigree.

Originally Posted by vivekiny2k

The part in bold explains why. They are getting B tech, They really do not care if they get Mtech or PhD along with that.

As others explained, the problem is market conditions. M tech doesn't equip you any better for the job market or fetch you better salaries. What samurai is saying is put an entry barrier for PG and PhD to encourage better input quality, but as long as thee are no rewards, I don't see why would anyone want to cross those barriers.

The Indian industry (escpecially IT) hardly offers challenging roles for fresh B.Tech IITians. What are they going to do with M.tech/PhD? May be non-IT M.Tech/PhDs fare better.

Originally Posted by anku94

PS : Is Masters really that useless? I've always wanted to go for higher studies.

Depends on the syllabus. As I have seen, M.Tech (comp sci) syllabus in most Indian colleges is useless. Better go to a reputed college abroad.

Originally Posted by sgiitk

There is GATE for PG. Scores are mandatory. In EE at IITK the screening cut-off is 95th percentile or so.

Yes, I know. But how many brilliant people opt for GATE over GRE? You know the quality of B.Tech vs M.tech/PhDs from IIT. Even the industry has known it for decades now, that an IIT B.Tech can blow away any IIT M.Tech/PhD with non-IIT B.Tech.

In the 90s I had to work with some IIT PhDs in TCS, who were started off at a much higher designation. While I took 7 years to become an Assistant Consultant, IIT PhDs joined fresh at the same level. And they were less productive than a trainee. I soon found that they had B.Tech/M.Tech from 3rd-tier colleges, but had used IIT PhDs to obtain pedigree and fool TCS into taking them at higher levels. Soon industry smartened up to this trick. We started putting them at customer facing roles where they can awe the customers with their pedigree, while rest of us did the real work.

Originally Posted by sgiitk

As for PhD it is on oxygen, most IITs have walk-in interviews, in engineering as well as most branches of science! Regarding age I think even today the majority of PhDs in NIT's are IIT PhDs, who did the degree as sponsored candidates under the Quality Improvement Programme.

I know, ageing lecturers who haven't touched a book outside of their syllabus taking up PhD in IIT. It has become a Cliché now.

[SPIKE ARRESTOR]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

For the past few years, I have stopped encouraging (in fact discourage) my students from joining academics.

Sir, that is surprising to hear from you. Why do you say so? Your inputs would be helpful for me.

I am someone who has left a well paying R&D job with an Indian Auto major, just in-order to pursue my research interests finally leaning towards teaching. I would love to share & learn things with the newer generation whatever little I learnt during my 4 years.

Originally Posted by Samurai

IITs should have JEE even for PG and PhD, and have an age limit of 26 for PhD candidates. That will virtually eliminate pedigree seeking, middle aged or low quality candidates that queue up for PG and PhD at IITs.

Age limit for PhD is not a good idea. PhD unlike other courses is studying the unknown and MUST not have a time frame. Sometimes, individuals identify their research interests quite late.

Originally Posted by Samurai

Yes, I know. But how many brilliant people opt for GATE over GRE? You know the quality of B.Tech vs M.tech/PhDs from IIT. Even the industry has known it for decades now, that an IIT B.Tech can blow away any IIT M.Tech/PhD with non-IIT B.Tech.

Did not understand, could you please explain?

Spike

[vina]

Originally Posted by anku94

...


Are you saying that those who clear JEE don't go for higher studies, or that those who clear JEE don't opt for B.Tech. + M.Tech. dual degree at the time of admission? If it's the latter, I think you're mistaken. Plenty of people opt for CSE dual if they can't get CSE B.Tech. Holds true for every branch, in every engineering college.

@anku nobody who gets a B.Tech. from any of the old 5 IITs ever stays there for M.Tech. or PhD UNLESS they are preparing for IAS.

In fact one of my friends who went to IITK appeared for GATE and in his interview faced a barrage of questions on why he wanted to do M.Tech, his professors knew very well he was not really interested in M.Tech.


Many IITians go for higher studies, but they have all of the top universities of the world to choose from, and technical education (grad school, not UG) gets so few brains these days IITians are courted heavily.




EDIT:

(1) best of luck if you got in this year, best of luck for the next year if you didn't
(2) M.Techs have so little brain power, most B.Techs take grad level courses in their third and fourth years just to boost their own GPAs - getting an A is easy for a B.Tech if half the class comprises of M.Tech students. Most Ph.Ds are rejects from everywhere else - as Samurai has written above.