[ebonho]

Originally Posted by graaja

This is going to be a long post, but I will try to answer your questions from my own experience.

Thanks for the effort!

Once you get over the first few days of your body resisting the fasted state, you will actually feel more energetic and active in fasted state at work. After all, our body has been programmed to use fat as its primary fuel source. This is from my own experience.

Was guessing as much. And gastric juice secretion (and activation of the hunger centers) adjusting to change in dietary rhythms is well known to medical science and has been my experience as well.

Regarding muscle loss, from what I have read and watched, unless you are into long periods of fasting like 36 hours and more, body does not burn protein. In one of the videos on IF, Dr. Jason Fung says our body has evolved over a million years to store fat and then use this fat during starvation. Unless it runs out of stored fat, it does not burn muscles. This makes total sense, and I don't think we have the risk of muscle loss in a 16:8 fasting cycle.

Thanks. This is what I was worried about. But really, at 95 kilos and in danger of climbing if left unchecked, right now dramatic weight loss trumps fears of some muscle loss, even if it weren't so.

More than post workout fasting, it is about how long a workout you can do in fasted state and in what intensity you can do the workout. When you are doing low intensity workout in your endurance zone, your body will use fat as fuel and will be able to sustain.

All my weekly rides and even weekend rides up till 100-150 kms are fasted rides. Of course I eat along the way over 80-100 km. Its only the 200 and above BRMs where I eat before the ride.

But you need to first train your body to do this. When I had started doing fasted runs or cycling, I used to hit a wall at about 30 minutes. After this, there will be absolutely no energy to continue. However, after about 10 minutes of perseverance, I used to feel a sudden surge in energy and after this I could continue. This sudden surge in energy is when the body switches over from glycogen as primary fuel to fat as fuel. I have been able to do 12km runs at moderate pace in a fasted state. The key here is moderate intensity.

I don't run. On my rides, as I said above, at my peak I could maintain a 25+ kmph average over a 100 km (Pune to Khopoli on NH4 or Pune-Yavat/Kedagaon-Pune on Sholapur highway) in a fasted state, non-stop. I can do the same at a slightly slower 24 kmph over 40-60 km currently. But as you can imagine, on a 14+ kilo hybrid, this is not a "moderate" or "fat burning" pace at all. You are driving proper. Very little easing off. Especially in Pune's rolling to hilly terrain.



I tried doing the easy riding thing mid last year when I came back from my ITB injury and did not want to hurt myself and take it slow on the ramp up. So middle chain-ring and lots of spinning. My speed dropped to 22 and even 21. That did not work for me. I am happy right now at 24-25 and 40 km and will wait for the legs and heart/lungs to push the distance up slowly. Without backing off the pace. And eventually pace as well (my highest was close to 29-30 for close to 70 km during my 200 and 400 BRMs on the flat Sholapur highway and close to 26-27 kmph for the first 150 km, but ya, then that blows you out for the middle leg .... stupid pacing).

When I was training for my half ironman triathlon in the past 4 months, I had to do high intensity workouts (like interval training and extended periods of workout at higher intensities) to improve performance, I could not sustain the fasted workouts. So, in the past four months, I had gone back to my regular carb based nutrition, and believe me I gained 2 kilos of weight inspite of 10 to 12 hours of training a week. Now I have started fasted workouts again. And I am struggling to strike a balance between teaching my body to burn fat as fuel and at the same time improve my performance.

This is again great info. And really you are at the phase of training I have only skimmed ... i.e. power and speed. The base miles already in place (3000+ uninterrupted kms at the very least from what I hear).


For you, I would suggest this.

Cut your rides from 1:40 hours to 1:00 hour. Do these rides at moderate intensity. Do not worry about average speeds at this time. Just focus on moderate intensity and teach your body to burn fat as fuel. In the first few rides you will feel that wall at some point in the ride. Continue riding at even lower intensity till you start feeling that energy surge. Once your body starts getting used to this, gradually increase the distance and time.

I don't mind doing as you say at all. But as I have tried to explain above, I am already doing fasted rides, and already doing them up to 1:45 to even 2:00 (yes, the last leg is still not unstressed though, but I've done barely 800 km/20 rides in the past 2 months since my break) at 24 kmph. So should I ease off? And ramp up slower?

Next is the fasting window. Start with a smaller fasting window.

This is a problem once you leave home and are at work. There is no food available in between - till lunch time.

And remember one thing. Intermittent fasting is not about cutting your intake, but managing it in a shorter window. Within the 8 hour eating window, have wholesome filling meals.

So Im guessing a lunch at 12:30 and then dinner latest by 8:30, with a snack thrown in somewhere in between?



Can I at least have black coffee (brewed filter coffee) during the fasting period between the ride and lunch?



For the past month or so, I have cut out lunch. I have a mug of strong milk coffee (no sugar) with two eggs and either porridge or two slices of toast for breakfast, then come home ravenous and grab some bites, then a late dinner (usually 9:30-10 pm). That's my regular dinner time. Maybe that's how the fasted rides are not such an issue? Im trying to keep off bread, rotis, rice, potatoes. I'm not much into pasta etc. and I never have sugar with my tea or coffee (for years).



Cheers, Doc

[ampere]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Was guessing as much. And gastric juice secretion (and activation of the hunger centers) adjusting to change in dietary rhythms is well known to medical science and has been my experience as well.

I have seen that transition myself. And now its internalised totally! Not just for days or months; but now years and counting !

I don't run. On my rides, as I said above, at my peak I could maintain a 25+ kmph average over a 100 km (Pune to Khopoli on NH4 or Pune-Yavat/Kedagaon-Pune on Sholapur highway) in a fasted state, non-stop.

You need something for a daily work out. Well at least 5 days a week. May not be as hard as 200km ride, but at least some jog/run or weights. Thats more for maintaining your metabolism. But your fat loss comes from diet.

So Im guessing a lunch at 12:30 and then dinner latest by 8:30, with a snack thrown in somewhere in between?

If you are trying to be on the downward spiral on your weight curve, my suggestion would be to restrict carb intake to only one meal (per you choice and the take others like fat/protein during rest of your 8 hour eating window)

Can I at least have black coffee (brewed filter coffee) during the fasting period between the ride and lunch?

You can. I do it all the time. Check the first post of this thread.

I never have sugar with my tea or coffee (for years).

Its the milk sugar in that case which keeps carb metabolism active? I have become now full on black (tea or coffee).

Of course all my experiences are for general well being. But if you want to get ready for ironman; then you better hear from graaja!

[PrasannaDhana]

Is it just me or does someone else too feels that getting too deep into details of nutrition and metabolism actually works against weight loss (psychologically)?

I have been able to reduce 25 kilos in a little over last 3 months, by just following one simple sentence - "Move more, Eat less!"

[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by PrasannaDhana

I

I have been able to reduce 25 kilos in a little over last 3 months, by just following one simple sentence - "Move more, Eat less!"

Jesus, thats like a transformation from the hulk to Dr Banner!

[PrasannaDhana]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

Jesus, thats like a transformation from the hulk to Dr Banner!

More like bulk to my normal weight (110kg).

More so because I met with a motorcycle accident which left me bed ridden for 80 days. All that sedate period + a lot of carbs and sweets had its toll.

Now on a journey to get to 85-90 kg, as I am no longer as strong as I used to be, and don't think I can get as strong atleast before another year of intense training.

I will try to put before and after pictures tonight, if time permits.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by ampere

You need something for a daily work out. Well at least 5 days a week. May not be as hard as 200km ride, but at least some jog/run or weights. Thats more for maintaining your metabolism. But your fat loss comes from diet.

If you are trying to be on the downward spiral on your weight curve, my suggestion would be to restrict carb intake to only one meal (per you choice and the take others like fat/protein during rest of your 8 hour eating window)

You can. I do it all the time. Check the first post of this thread.

Its the milk sugar in that case which keeps carb metabolism active? I have become now full on black (tea or coffee).

Thanks for your reply @ampere

On my phone so apologies for not being able to split quote.

With a rest day on Monday, I cycle 3 maybe 4 days of the working week. With a long ride on Sunday.

The carb meal in that case will have to be lunch. Rice, roti.

For dinner I can go protein and vegetables with chicken or eggs.

Great (relief) news on the black coffee. I'm an addict. Will give the OP a good leisure read for sure.

Its not just the milk in the coffee but the toast and eggs and porridge as well. I was having a good breakfast to tide me over till dinner, missing lunch in between.

Essentially I was having two fasted periods of 12 hours in a day. 9 am to 9 pm and 9 pm to 9 am.

Does that work as well as the 8:16? I'm guessing from a ketosis and autophagy perspective, probably not ....

Cheers, Doc

[graaja]

Originally Posted by ebonho

With a rest day on Monday, I cycle 3 maybe 4 days of the working week. With a long ride on Sunday.

The carb meal in that case will have to be lunch. Rice, roti.

For dinner I can go protein and vegetables with chicken or eggs.

This is good enough.

Originally Posted by ebonho

Its not just the milk in the coffee but the toast and eggs and porridge as well. I was having a good breakfast to tide me over till dinner, missing lunch in between.

Essentially I was having two fasted periods of 12 hours in a day. 9 am to 9 pm and 9 pm to 9 am.

Does that work as well as the 8:16? I'm guessing from a ketosis and autophagy perspective, probably not ....

No. This does not work. For IF to work, insulin should become zero in the body. This happens only after about 11 to 12 hours after a good meal. Only the time after this counts. So, you should extend the fasting window as much as possible after this 12 hours.

So, instead of skipping lunch, you should actually skip breakfast. And when you do this, the first few days, you will get withdrawal symptoms like head aches, hunger pangs etc. That is when the body is resisting your change and is discouraging you from getting into this habit where it has to burn fat for fuel.

To give an analogy, glucose and fat are like fast food and home cooked meal. Glucose is the easiest way to get energy and the body doesn't have to do much. But to fuel from fat, it has to first break the fat cells (triglycerides) to fatty acids and release this to the blood. So, the body will do its best to dissuade you from continuing this madness.

It takes just a few days to get over this stage. Once your body gets used to this, that is when you start feeling all the positive effects of using fat as fuel - lots of energy, feeling young, weight loss etc.

Try to bring in a 16:8 fasting and you will see good results.

Originally Posted by PrasannaDhana

Is it just me or does someone else too feels that getting too deep into details of nutrition and metabolism actually works against weight loss (psychologically)?

You are not alone. Believe me, it is definitely frustrating when you have to do all this learning to get results.

The good news is that for most people, just eating clean (cutting sugars, processed food, complex carbs), and avoiding continuous intake of food - breakfast, pre-lunch snack, lunch, post-lunch snack with tea, dinner, post dinner snack etc., with some moderate workouts like brisk walking or running will help in shedding most of the unnecessary weight. This is almost 80% of the result with 20% of effort.

It is only when you try to get that remaining 20% of perfection (like bringing down body fat to single digit %, do a sub 7 hour half ironman triathlon, or do a 3 hour 100km bike), things start getting difficult. Another huge factor is age. People in their 20's or early 30's have a better metabolism and really don't have to worry about stuff like metabolic rate, insulin resistance etc. But hit your 40's and things get difficult. And there are others who are genetically blessed, who can eat anything and still will not put on weight and there are those genetically cursed who will put on weight even if they smell carbs.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by graaja

This is good enough.

No. This does not work. For IF to work, insulin should become zero in the body. This happens only after about 11 to 12 hours after a good meal. Only the time after this counts. So, you should extend the fasting window as much as possible after this 12 hours.

So, instead of skipping lunch, you should actually skip breakfast. And when you do this, the first few days, you will get withdrawal symptoms like head aches, hunger pangs etc. That is when the body is resisting your change and is discouraging you from getting into this habit where it has to burn fat for fuel.

It takes just a few days to get over this stage. Once your body gets used to this, that is when you start feeling all the positive effects of using fat as fuel - lots of energy, feeling young, weight loss etc.

Try to bring in a 16:8 fasting and you will see good results.

Yup, I plan to start tomorrow. And try to have an early dinner and lunch as late as possible to increase the fasting period beyond 16 to 18 hours.

And black coffee to tide me over the pangs.

With tthis ... two meals and 16 hour fasting and fasted exercise, is it ok to eat regular food (I find the LCHF/keto prep and logistics really tedious)?

I'll try ensure two/three whole eggs or chicken breast for dinner daily for the protein.

Cheers, Doc

[Ithaca]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Yup, I plan to start tomorrow.

And black coffee to tide me over the pangs.
Cheers, Doc

I believe any caffeine or even black tea during the fasting interval needs to be avoided.
This was in the YouTube video on intermittent fasting by Ms Subah Jain.
Have no other research with this regard.
Have entirely cut off all coffee before lunch. Down to 2 coffees from the original 4.
Drinking warm water in the fasting period is what I have started.

[ampere]

Originally Posted by Ithaca

I believe any caffeine or even black tea during the fasting interval needs to be avoided.
This was in the YouTube video on intermittent fasting by Ms Subah Jain.

Black Coffee does not break your fasting window. That is one pointer which is universally accepted and been explained across the board. Did you by any chance mean coffee with milk?

[Ithaca]

Originally Posted by ampere

Black Coffee does not break your fasting window. That is one pointer which is universally accepted and been explained across the board. Did you by any chance mean coffee with milk?

I assumed all forms of caffeine was bad in the fasting window hence resorted to only warm water during the fasting window.

[nirvanaguy19]

Hi guys.

Can anyone suggest a good lchf friendly protein supplement (or are they recommended at all). After reaching close to my goal weight, I have started weight training and my trainer has recommended whey supplement in order to up the protein intake.

My daily diet includes good amount of protein but probably not enough now that I am doing weight training 3-4 times a week.

[PrasannaDhana]

Originally Posted by nirvanaguy19

My daily diet includes good amount of protein but probably not enough now that I am doing weight training 3-4 times a week.

If you are consuming a good quantity (1g per kg BW) of protein from food, you don't need whey powder.

Protein Powder works well for someone who does not have the time to have balanced meals at home. Other than that I dont see any need for extra whey consumption when your food intake is balanced and protein rich.

3-4 times a week training is pretty moderate. In case of very high intensity weight training and cardio for more than 5 days a week, you may need more protein for recovery.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by ampere

Black Coffee does not break your fasting window. That is one pointer which is universally accepted and been explained across the board. Did you by any chance mean coffee with milk?

Phew! Thanks for that bro. I was having visions of hot water and limes ....

11 a.m. and all is well.

32 km bike ride at 24 kmph. 260 m elevation.

Came back and had a black filter coffee.

Now I will try and delay my pre-lunch black tea to as late as I can if and when I find myself flagging.

Lunch will be 2 p.m. Dinner last night wound up by 9 p.m. Will try to finish earlier by 8 p.m. today.

Some questions on the eating window, guys -

1) Can I eat a normal Lunch and Dinner or do I have to be careful there too?

2) Can I have something to munch if I get home early ... say by 6-6:30?

Oh and another question, though its already been answered earlier by the Keto boys.

Can I chew gum in the fasting period? Normal Orbit.

Cheers, Doc

[am1m]

Have a question about white sugar. How bad is it really? I'm not worried about the weight gain aspect, I've hovered between 63 and 65kg for the past 10 years and have become much more physically active over the past 5 years, so I think that's ok. A lot of people who I hang out with due to the sport I play consider white or processed sugar like a 'poison'. When did it become so bad and why?

I don't drink coffee or tea on a daily basis, I avoid soft drinks, I do have a bit of chocolate every couple of days and juice once in a while. If i remember I ask the guys to leave out the sugar, but more often than not I have sugar added by default I guess.

I've read a lot of articles online that treat sugar the same way talking about the negative aspects, but there are a lot of 'mays' - may be related to cancer risk, may be related to diabetes risk, may be related to depression, etc. The only certainty is that it is related to weight gain, and I'm ok with that.

Just curious about the implications, I can take it or leave it I guess, I know it has 'empty calories'. But is it really such a vile thing? Some friends have also reported being in a better mood when getting up after going off white sugar for a couple of months. Wondering if all that is really true.