[joslicx]

Originally Posted by sayyam.gaur58

I'm surprised that this thread is so quiet especially when Djokovic is fighting against his visa cancellation twice! On a personal and moral view, he should have been deported the first time itself. You just can't use your stature to overturn a rule of a foreign country, the worst part is that he lied on the visa form, violated COVID norms then defended himself citing error of judgement
Any views on this? By the way, the judgment will be out in a couple of hours.

For sure this incident will tarnish his legacy even further. But to me, the biggest culprit is Tennis Australia. They should have sorted out this matter of exemptions with their govt and then only allowed it to players. Now some of them have to return after coming to their country for this tournament this does not look good. TA leadership have failed miserably here. Wouldn't it have been better if they had told Djokovic fair and square that he doesn't get any exemption before he traveled to their country. Then this unfortunate episode would not have played out.

[AnandB]

A win for mankind. I know Aussie govt. is not some beacon of fairness but Novak got what he deserved.

[Chetan_Rao]

Choices have consequences.

Tennis Australia, Victoria state govt., Australia federal govt. and Mr. Djokovic all made avoidable choices that have now led to unsavory consequences.

Nobody comes out looking good from this, and it's wildly unfair to all other competitors and Australian citizens who've had to unwillingly deal with this circus.

[pandey.jai]

Will the cancellation of visa mean Djokovic can’t enter the country for 3 years?

[neeraj0272]

Originally Posted by sayyam.gaur58

I'm surprised that this thread is so quiet especially when Djokovic is fighting against his visa cancellation twice! On a personal and moral view, he should have been deported the first time itself. You just can't use your stature to overturn a rule of a foreign country, the worst part is that he lied on the visa form, violated COVID norms then defended himself citing error of judgement
Any views on this? By the way, the judgment will be out in a couple of hours.

My take:
When almost majority of the population has succumbed to vaccine mandates for any of the following reasons:
1. Peer pressure
2. Actual or perceived fear of the Covid
3. For professional/personal reasons but not related to illness
Novak Djokovic is on the brink of personal and unprecedented glory and one that might not be equalled for quite some time. I think stakes for Novak were and still are unimaginably high.
I see friends and relatives getting vaccinated not for health reasons but just because they don't want to miss a business trip or a leisure trip!
And yet Novak risked the biggest glory of one of the most popular sport! And still people are calling him selfish? He would have been selfish if he didn't believe in vaccines but still got jabbed to play in AO. It would have been the easiest way out and indeed many people are criticising him for not choosing the easiest way out. But Novak is a true champion and he didn't take the easiest way out. Let's see how long can Novak resist this tyranny.
He has every right to act according to his own judgement and we can not criticize him for doing so.
Australia provides for a legal exemption and he succeeded in getting that exemption. It's not Novak's fault that Australian rules provide for an exemption.
He tried a legal way to play in the AO and he succeeded in doing so but was still denied using discretionary powers by a politician citing 'general good'! How Novak used his stature to overturn a rule of Australia? If this was indeed the case then why Australia didn't reject his Visa for the reasons you mentioned and punish those Australians who colluded with Novak?

[AnandB]

Originally Posted by neeraj0272

My take:
When almost majority of the population has succumbed to vaccine mandates for any of the following reasons:
1. Peer pressure
2. Actual or perceived fear of the Covid
3. For professional/personal reasons but not related to illness
Novak Djokovic is on the brink of personal and unprecedented glory and one that might not be equalled for quite some time. I think stakes for Novak were and still are unimaginably high.
I see friends and relatives getting vaccinated not for health reasons but just because they don't want to miss a business trip or a leisure trip!
And yet Novak risked the biggest glory of one of the most popular sport! And still people are calling him selfish? He would have been selfish if he didn't believe in vaccines but still got jabbed to play in AO. It would have been the easiest way out and indeed many people are criticising him for not choosing the easiest way out. But Novak is a true champion and he didn't take the easiest way out. Let's see how long can Novak resist this tyranny.
He has every right to act according to his own judgement and we can not criticize him for doing so.
Australia provides for a legal exemption and he succeeded in getting that exemption. It's not Novak's fault that Australian rules provide for an exemption.
He tried a legal way to play in the AO and he succeeded in doing so but was still denied using discretionary powers by a politician citing 'general good'! How Novak used his stature to overturn a rule of Australia? If this was indeed the case then why Australia didn't reject his Visa for the reasons you mentioned and punish those Australians who colluded with Novak?

Brother what are you talking about? You have portrayed him not taking vaccine an unselfish act, and he didn't take the easy way by getting vaccinated He should have taken it and the peer pressure to getting vaccinated is absolutely right regardless if you don't believe in it as it affects others. He is a world renowned person with massive following. Instead of letting it get this far Tennis Australia should have not allowed him at all even if he is a 9-time winner. Also you are ignoring many other things he did in the lead up to Aus Open. If he was reported positive he ignored it and was seen out in crowds and doing photoshoots. And if he wasn't then he faked his test report so he could get permission to enter on the grounds that a recent positive person can't be vaccinated. Either way its down-right irresponsible and he got the results of his actions.

[WorkingGuru]

While I support vaccination, I also believe that we as civil society need to respect the right to agency of person being voluntarily legally compliant, & accept their individual liberty and that we obtain informed consent from someone without abusing their personal rights.

Govts have it easy when they find support from a substantial section of citizenry in curbing the most reasonable individual liberties.

The way the Australian authorities were going after Novak, if what he'd done was anything close to criminality, he'd have been detained.

The American CDC itself has been dilly dallying with their guidelines over the required period of self-isolation of COVID positive individuals. Why? Because a recently infected person can be reported as positive weeks, even months after recovery. This "shedding" of infection was known to not be contagious/harmful.

Being at the top of their athletic performance isn't a joke, sports careers are result driven, not PR driven (like many celebrities are). It'd have been the easiest thing to get bullied into vaccination. Heck if the intent was malicious, then I doubt it'd have been hard to get a fake vaccination certificate itself for a sportsperson of that caliber & fame.

He's been punished for his honesty, and use being humorously mocked by mainstream media (viz deeply influenced by Govt) for not getting bullied into blindly accepting the mandate "in good faith". Older people who've lived their adulthood through India's mass sterilisation drive in 1976 would know what "incentivised" medical procedures can do.

Let's lot demonise the non-vaccinated out of public hysteria.

[sayyam.gaur58]

Originally Posted by neeraj0272

My take:
When almost majority of the population has succumbed to vaccine mandates for any of the following reasons:
1. Peer pressure
2. Actual or perceived fear of the Covid
3. For professional/personal reasons but not related to illness
Novak Djokovic is on the brink of personal and unprecedented glory and one that might not be equalled for quite some time. I think stakes for Novak were and still are unimaginably high.
I see friends and relatives getting vaccinated not for health reasons but just because they don't want to miss a business trip or a leisure trip!
And yet Novak risked the biggest glory of one of the most popular sport! And still people are calling him selfish? He would have been selfish if he didn't believe in vaccines but still got jabbed to play in AO. It would have been the easiest way out and indeed many people are criticising him for not choosing the easiest way out. But Novak is a true champion and he didn't take the easiest way out. Let's see how long can Novak resist this tyranny.
He has every right to act according to his own judgement and we can not criticize him for doing so.
Australia provides for a legal exemption and he succeeded in getting that exemption. It's not Novak's fault that Australian rules provide for an exemption.
He tried a legal way to play in the AO and he succeeded in doing so but was still denied using discretionary powers by a politician citing 'general good'! How Novak used his stature to overturn a rule of Australia? If this was indeed the case then why Australia didn't reject his Visa for the reasons you mentioned and punish those Australians who colluded with Novak?

I respect him as a player and it's absolutely upto the person whether he or she wants to take the vaccine or not. Not a question about it. But the fact that he lied on his papers and defended himself by blaming his agent and error of judgement was just too irresponsible. The Australian government was already irked with the previous judgement and they got enough reasons to deport him over such things done by Djokovic. It's not his first time violating these rules, he did it last year as well. Tennis Australia is equally at fault too. But you got to have a sense of responsibility if you are playing at such a high level which was missing from his end unfortunately no matter how much we like him.

[neeraj0272]

Originally Posted by sayyam.gaur58

I'm surprised that this thread is so quiet especially when Djokovic is fighting against his visa cancellation twice! On a personal and moral view, he should have been deported the first time itself. You just can't use your stature to overturn a rule of a foreign country, the worst part is that he lied on the visa form, violated COVID norms then defended himself citing error of judgement
Any views on this? By the way, the judgment will be out in a couple of hours.

India has enforced most stringent of 'COVID Norms'. Complete lockdown. Twice. How has that 'played' out? So may be some of us are not that big 'fans' of COVID norms.

Originally Posted by joslicx

For sure this incident will tarnish his legacy even further. But to me, the biggest culprit is Tennis Australia. They should have sorted out this matter of exemptions with their govt and then only allowed it to players. Now some of them have to return after coming to their country for this tournament this does not look good. TA leadership have failed miserably here. Wouldn't it have been better if they had told Djokovic fair and square that he doesn't get any exemption before he traveled to their country. Then this unfortunate episode would not have played out.

As the judge said 'What more could have Djokovic done'? Tennis Australia and Victorian govt gave him an exemption. Should Djokovic have doubted these two institutions? Should he have gone beyond these institutions and rang up Australian PM or Australian External minister or even the Australian Supreme court for clarifications before setting foot on Australian soil?

Originally Posted by AnandB

A win for mankind. I know Aussie govt. is not some beacon of fairness but Novak got what he deserved.

Why did he deserve this? for some past misdemeanors or for this incident?

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

Choices have consequences.

Tennis Australia, Victoria state govt., Australia federal govt. and Mr. Djokovic all made avoidable choices that have now led to unsavory consequences.

Nobody comes out looking good from this, and it's wildly unfair to all other competitors and Australian citizens who've had to unwillingly deal with this circus.

Djokovic is not responsible for Australian citizens and their choices. His only concern was to follow Australian Visa rules and visit Australia. He did so.
Tennis Australia & Victoria state govt should have been more careful in leading Djokovic up the garden path.
Aussie Federal Minister used his discretionary power to cancel his lawfully gained Visa. This is only upon Australian govt.

Originally Posted by pandey.jai

Will the cancellation of visa mean Djokovic can’t enter the country for 3 years?

News is that Aussie PM has hinted that he can visit in the near future.

Originally Posted by AnandB

Brother what are you talking about? You have portrayed him not taking vaccine an unselfish act, and he didn't take the easy way by getting vaccinated He should have taken it and the peer pressure to getting vaccinated is absolutely right regardless if you don't believe in it as it affects others. He is a world renowned person with massive following. Instead of letting it get this far Tennis Australia should have not allowed him at all even if he is a 9-time winner. Also you are ignoring many other things he did in the lead up to Aus Open. If he was reported positive he ignored it and was seen out in crowds and doing photoshoots. And if he wasn't then he faked his test report so he could get permission to enter on the grounds that a recent positive person can't be vaccinated. Either way its down-right irresponsible and he got the results of his actions.

What you are saying is speculation without fully knowing all the facts. Also why is it hard to allow someone else to have different perspective regarding 'COVID norms'? Even after following strict lockdowns and masking up the whole population, Covid is spreading like wildfire then it is understandable that some public is going to be skeptic of 'COVID norms'. Maybe Djokovic is one of these skeptics. Are we going to vilify people who refuse to live in perpetual fear?
Also as WorkingGuru says that obtaining a fake Vaccinated certificate isnt that hard. There were news reports that For Rs 500 it was being done in our country only!

Originally Posted by sayyam.gaur58

I respect him as a player and it's absolutely upto the person whether he or she wants to take the vaccine or not. Not a question about it. But the fact that he lied on his papers and defended himself by blaming his agent and error of judgement was just too irresponsible. The Australian government was already irked with the previous judgement and they got enough reasons to deport him over such things done by Djokovic. It's not his first time violating these rules, he did it last year as well. Tennis Australia is equally at fault too. But you got to have a sense of responsibility if you are playing at such a high level which was missing from his end unfortunately no matter how much we like him.

Sadly it is us the public who wants to make Gods out of these type of celebrities. Djokovic' is good at tennis. In fact he is the best. We should draw inspiration from him only on the matter of Tennis & sports and nothing else. Everything else is his own personal matter and beliefs. same goes for singers, actors and every other kind of celebrity.

Originally Posted by WorkingGuru

While I support vaccination, I also believe that we as civil society need to respect the right to agency of person being voluntarily legally compliant, & accept their individual liberty and that we obtain informed consent from someone without abusing their personal rights.

Govts have it easy when they find support from a substantial section of citizenry in curbing the most reasonable individual liberties.

The way the Australian authorities were going after Novak, if what he'd done was anything close to criminality, he'd have been detained.

The American CDC itself has been dilly dallying with their guidelines over the required period of self-isolation of COVID positive individuals. Why? Because a recently infected person can be reported as positive weeks, even months after recovery. This "shedding" of infection was known to not be contagious/harmful.

Being at the top of their athletic performance isn't a joke, sports careers are result driven, not PR driven (like many celebrities are). It'd have been the easiest thing to get bullied into vaccination. Heck if the intent was malicious, then I doubt it'd have been hard to get a fake vaccination certificate itself for a sportsperson of that caliber & fame.

He's been punished for his honesty, and use being humorously mocked by mainstream media (viz deeply influenced by Govt) for not getting bullied into blindly accepting the mandate "in good faith". Older people who've lived their adulthood through India's mass sterilisation drive in 1976 would know what "incentivised" medical procedures can do.

Let's lot demonise the non-vaccinated out of public hysteria.

Aptly said.
I would not go into the debate of Covid and Covid norms. These are not matters important for this discussion. Only thing important here is that Djokovic fulfilled Aussie Visa norms. He got Visa upon recommendations of Two Aussie institutions. An Aussie politician used his discretionary power to cancel this Visa.

Djokovic has never been that much loved by the public for various reasons.
Upstaging Federer first and then Nadal is one of them. His personality is another.
But he is the best tennis player. ever. He has not cheated in getting there. This is his legacy. and this is all what matters.

[joslicx]

Agree with the contrarian views here. The Australians have treated Djokovic very unfairly. What is happening in their country is not Djokovi's doing. They invited him there to participate in the AO ( that he was unvaccinated and was considering skipping AO was widely known) by giving him the vaccine exemption. Then, once it became known and some of their countrymen started making noise the government caught cold feet and what followed is an absolute circus with the best tennis player in the world rendered a monkey! It was so remarkable it's just unthinkable. AO authorities and the Australian government are the biggest culprits here. You don't behave like this with your guests. They should not have invited him to come at all. But if you invite, you need to honor him. He is not a bad guy or something. I am just wondering how he was allowed last year? The same pandemic was there last year as well and he was unvaccinated last year also.

As Mats Wilander has said, this could be a turning point for tennis. It's probably the end of era of Djokovic/Nadal/Federer. We might see new champpions in the slams this year. Not sure how Djokovic really can come back from this.

[ABHI_1512]

There are too many things which were wrong in this whole Djokovic Saga and both sides went overboard with the whole thing. Firstly, the AO organisers who secured the exemption knowing fully well about the vaccination rules of the country. With Roger Federer missing from action, the organisers wanted the top ranked player of the world playing the tournament and who is gunning for his record breaking title.

Secondly, the Australian authorities acted petulantly in revoking the visa when it should not been issued at the first place at all if they were to follow the vaccination norm. That the border police got involved apart from the state authorities is a shame. They were dealing with the top ranked tennis player in the world who had obtained bonafide credentials according to the exemption criteria and entered the country. The whole thing could have been dealt in a more dignified manner.

Lastly, as much as I respect Djokovic for the player that he is, his past utterances about being known anti-Vaxxer is well known. To get jabbed or not is his personal choice, but that choice surely has consequences and he and his team should have known already. While he did obtain the exemption lawfully, but his behaviour was totally irresponsible when he was infected with Covid and that became the flashpoint actually. Tomorrow, I may decide that not wearing a mask is my personal choice but for that I should also be prepared to be thrown out of a flight if I am not wearing one !!

When the whole world is getting jabbed including the top sportsmen all over the world, it makes all others look like fools who have adhered to the vaccination protocol to play a certain tournament despite their misgivings. Also, any player is not bigger than the game. If Djokovic really wanted his record that bad, he should have been more careful for sure.

But despite all these happenings, Djokovic will come back strong. His mental temperament is of another level and which has served him right in getting the number of grand slams that he has won till date. Champion like him needs to get on the court instead of focussing on getting a visa !!

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by sayyam.gaur58

I'm surprised that this thread is so quiet especially when Djokovic is fighting against his visa cancellation twice! On a personal and moral view, he should have been deported the first time itself. You just can't use your stature to overturn a rule of a foreign country, the worst part is that he lied on the visa form, violated COVID norms then defended himself citing error of judgement
Any views on this? By the way, the judgment will be out in a couple of hours.

Thank you for saying it as it is and calling a spade a spade. While the Australian authorities are at fault for giving him a visa in the first place(albeit against his lies) and knowing he was an anti-vaxxer this player is a lesson for all of us not to let our own image of our indispensability get ahead of us. While the Australians went about it in a ham handed and disorganized manner I'm happy they threw the rule book at this pompous player. Now the French have announced that those without a double vaccination will not be allowed. That should give anti-vaxxer players something to think about.

Never could understand the philosophy of these Western anti-vaxxers. All or almost all of them have received half a dozen vaccines as infants under WHO mandates. So what are they protesting about? Would they like to somehow reverse all those vaccines from their babyhood and get ready to face cholera, typhoid, mumps, small pox and many other infections. His fans must be disappointed I'm sure by his missing the Australian Open. He has no one to blame but himself.

I'm sure the French Govt will not let him in.

[neeraj0272]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Thank you for saying it as it is and calling a spade a spade. While the Australian authorities are at fault for giving him a visa in the first place(albeit against his lies) and knowing he was an anti-vaxxer this player is a lesson for all of us not to let our own image of our indispensability get ahead of us. While the Australians went about it in a ham handed and disorganized manner I'm happy they threw the rule book at this pompous player. Now the French have announced that those without a double vaccination will not be allowed. That should give anti-vaxxer players something to think about.

Never could understand the philosophy of these Western anti-vaxxers. All or almost all of them have received half a dozen vaccines as infants under WHO mandates. So what are they protesting about? Would they like to somehow reverse all those vaccines from their babyhood and get ready to face cholera, typhoid, mumps, small pox and many other infections. His fans must be disappointed I'm sure by his missing the Australian Open. He has no one to blame but himself.

I'm sure the French Govt will not let him in.

I am not an anti-vaxxer but still I doubt COVID vaccines. I feel there has not been proper cost/benefit analysis of these vaccines to be administered on such a large scale and as two years of data has shown that Covid affects mostly aged or people with comorbidities. Hence it will be almost useless for healthy people like Novak in this case and can in fact introduce needless side effects.
Also as these are very fast mutating virus these vaccines will lose their efficacy pretty soon and you will end up in an endless loop of emerging variants and their updated vaccines. Pfizer CEO accepted their original vaccine has started losing efficacy against Covid and that they will introduce new vaccine for Omicron.
I am sure pretty soon the whole world will get tired of Covid variants and their vaccines, boosters etc. and with this there will be an automatic synchronous decline of Covid cases and Covid will die its natural death. But till then billions of people would have taken unwarranted vaccines and boosters.

Now coming to French Open and Novak, if indeed France makes a law without any exemption clause then it would be something for Novak to seriously ponder upon. I will say in that case Novak should keep aside his convictions and get vaccinated to enable him to play in French Open and other grand slams. He has too much at stake here and risk of side effects of vaccination are nothing compared to what he would gain.

Btw I am a Nadal fan and I hope that it will be Nadal who end up with most Grand Slam titles!

[Chetan_Rao]

Originally Posted by neeraj0272

...
Now coming to French Open and Novak, if indeed France makes a law...

Djokovic is a Monaco resident, which gives him access to France without any border control involvement. The sticking point is going to be at the local and tournament level, which are both likely to demand vaccination for access.

Lots of people got the issue mixed up w.r.t. Australia too, and a lot of the blame rests with how the government handled proceedings.

Tennis Australia gave him an exemption at tournament level (arguably on dodgy grounds but within their discretion anyway), but had no authority to grant him access to the state of Victoria (which has had some of the most stringent lockdown measures throughout the ongoing pandemic), or the country of Australia as a whole.

Djokovic was granted a visa basis declarations made on his application, and his lawyers won the first appeal on a procedural technicality (reportedly questioned at odd hours without access to consult his lawyer). Fair enough.

Authorities subsequently found errors on his visa application (which Djokovic's representatives claimed were unintentional), and Djokovic did himself no favors publicizing his travels prior to visiting Australia (including a few while knowing he's COVID positive) all over social media, contradicting details on his application. Australian federal govt. argued against the second appeal on technicalities too, and won. Full judgment text is yet to be published, but one can hardly cry foul about losing an argument on a technicality when one's entire argument was based on technicalities to begin with. Court proceedings hinge on technicalities, not morality or sentiments, and someone hoping to argue technicalities should pay more attention to not leave glaring holes in their own argument.

Moreover, a visa is a conditional document, and being granted one is NOT a guarantee of successful immigration. Most countries still retain discretion to reject immigration at port-of-entry and deporting the person in question. As an example, below is an excerpt from the US State Department website. You'll find similar verbiage pretty much everywhere one needs a visa to enter the borders.

Entering the United States

A visa allows a foreign citizen to travel to a U.S. port-of-entry (generally an airport) and request permission to enter the United States. A visa does not guarantee entry into the United States. The Department of Homeland Security (DHS), U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officials at the port-of-entry have authority to permit or deny admission to the United States. If you are allowed to enter the United States, the CBP official will provide an admission stamp or a paper Form I-94, Arrival/Departure Record. Learn more about admissions and entry requirements, restrictions about bringing food, agricultural products, and other restricted/prohibited goods, and more by reviewing the CBP website.

I have no intention to argue morality, and Djokovic is free to make his own choices about vaccines, but choices bring consequences. Nobody won from that crap-fest, tennis lost as a whole, and Djokovic has ensured any future paperwork he submits anywhere will be scrutinized with a fine-tooth comb.

All worth it to not get vaccinated? That's his choice to make.

[fhdowntheline]

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

I have no intention to argue morality, and Djokovic is free to make his own choices about vaccines, but choices bring consequences. Nobody won from that crap-fest, tennis lost as a whole, and Djokovic has ensured any future paperwork he submits anywhere will be scrutinized with a fine-tooth comb.

All worth it to not get vaccinated? That's his choice to make.

I think tennis is much bigger than any one player, even if he has won 20 grand slams. We will most probably see a new champion or consolidation by an emerging champion (Medvedev) , which is actually good for the game.
I respect Djokovic as a great tenacious tennis player. But he cant hold institutions hostage with his choices. I will also say that one must stop looking at "model" behaviour from such celebrities. Somehow that association of perfection in sport spills over to the actual personna. That must stop forthwith. Beneath the veneer of glory, such celebrities are utterly flawed, as much or worse than ordinary people.