[Saanil]

Originally Posted by akshaymahajan

While the placement numbers show that consulting is trending at ISB, I do belive that a chunck of these are already students by MBB. I have also heard that MBB do not recruit people with 6-7 years of prior work experience on campus because of the roles offered during campus recruiting.

Any ISB alumni/ MBB ninjas who can shed some more light.

Hi,

Apologies but what does MBB mean?

Also given your age and experience, I assume IIM's are out of the equation. Within US, which schools are you looking at?

[Samurai]

It refers to the big 3 consultancies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Th..._consultancies)

[akshaymahajan]

Originally Posted by Saanil

Hi,

Apologies but what does MBB mean?

Also given your age and experience, I assume IIM's are out of the equation. Within US, which schools are you looking at?

MBB is an acronym for the top 3 firms in the management consulting industry: McKinsey & Company, Bain & Company and the Boston Consulting Group (BCG).

In the US, I was looking at top 15 B schools only - Wharton, Fuqua and Ross being my top choices.

And yes, not considering IIMs for now.

[libranof1987]

Originally Posted by Saanil

Hi,

Apologies but what does MBB mean?

McKinsey & Company, Bain, The Boston Consulting Group

This holy trinity are the true Management Consulting firms; even the Big 4 (Deloitte, PwC, EY and KPMG) aren't true consultants.

Originally Posted by akshaymahajan

Samurai, quoting you here because I really want to hear you opinion.

Since school, I had been very clear that I wanted to go to a top 20 US B-school for my MBA after 5 years or more of work.

I have an MBA from a top 15 bschool in the US, class of '14. Thought I'd chip in.

1. US B Schools: Graduate, get a job, repay loan in 5 years odd and then decide

When you talk about getting an MBA from the US, an important part of the discussion is the H1.

As you must've read, the H1 is now a lottery. When I graduated in '14, there were about 180k applications and in '15, 233k.

The no. of available visas remain the same: 65k. (actually 55k since 10k are for Hong Kong).

You basically go through the lottery once (in a pool of 10k which is reserved for graduates from a US school), and then again with the main pool.

Now 65k from 240k is a terrible probability.

I myself had to return since my H1 petition wasn't picked in the lottery.

So, the main part of this statistic.

When you graduate, you get to work on your student visa for one year: it's called the OPT.

So, effectively, you get two shots at the lottery: the year you graduate and then when you're on the OPT.

This is where, having an MS comes in handy. STEM (Science, Tech, Engg, Maths) grads get a three year OPT.

And hence, four shots at the lottery.

Of course, I know two dudes who didn't get through the lottery four times!

Now, the most important part of this conversation.

Break-even: a typical MBA costs $ 150k (before any GA, TA, scholarships, and including air fare etc.)

A typical US MBA gets $130k/year on graduation.

Assume the worst that you'll be there for a year. You can manage about 50% investment return in a year. Plan on an MBA only if your funding is such that this is okay for you.

This is just the financial aspect of things.

The other important: jobs

At this moment, consulting and technology (Product Manager) roles are the only sure shot roles that you will find companies hiring international students.

Pure Finance are very, very difficult to come by; Marketing is no-go since companies want someone who understand the US market.

Add to this, visa challenges have made an increasing no. of companies vary of sponsoring international students. Add to it, this temporary ban on premium processing: necessary during job changes, and even location changes, has made a lot of my colleagues/friends sitting ducks since they are at the mercy of their company.

I've heard a lot of companies aren't even extending H1s beyond the first 3-year term.

Overall, this isn't the best time for an MBA in the US. Or MBA in general.

Desperately want to go to the US? I'd recommend an MIS degree. 80% of an MBA at 50% the cost, and being part of STEM, twice the no. of shots at the H1!

4. Other EU B schools: Still not sure how much value an MBA from IMD/IESE hold when outside the degree issuing country

A friend graduated from HEC Paris the same year I did. Her challenges were different: language and anti-immigration sentiment.

[Saanil]

Originally Posted by Samurai

It refers to the big 3 consultancies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Th..._consultancies)

Originally Posted by akshaymahajan

In the US, I was looking at top 15 B schools only - Wharton, Fuqua and Ross being my top choices.

Originally Posted by libranof1987

Break-even: a typical MBA costs $ 150k (before any GA, TA, scholarships, and including air fare etc.)

A typical US MBA gets $130k/year on graduation.

Assume the worst that you'll be there for a year. You can manage about 50% investment return in a year. Plan on an MBA only if your funding is such that this is okay for you.

This is just the financial aspect of things.

Thanks for giving a true picture of US MBA's. This helps me a lot in understanding the underlying dynamics.

So when you apply for US MBA, you go there on a student Visa which gives you the option to work there for a year. After that, you need to get a H1B visa which is purely lottery based? If you do not secure it, you come back to India right?

MBA cost of 150k dollars - is this per year or for the 2 year course? If after MBA, you starting salary is 130k, I guess you would be saving around 50% of that? I am not sure but it looks like paying back the loan would take 2-3 years? That too with a prudent lifestyle?

And in case you do not get a H1B visa, you return to India to get a 20-30 lakh job? I am not sure but this looks like a very risky thing unless you have sufficient funds or take help from your parents.

[akshaymahajan]

Originally Posted by Saanil

Thanks for giving a true picture of US MBA's. This helps me a lot in understanding the underlying dynamics.

So when you apply for US MBA, you go there on a student Visa which gives you the option to work there for a year. After that, you need to get a H1B visa which is purely lottery based? If you do not secure it, you come back to India right?

MBA cost of 150k dollars - is this per year or for the 2 year course? If after MBA, you starting salary is 130k, I guess you would be saving around 50% of that? I am not sure but it looks like paying back the loan would take 2-3 years? That too with a prudent lifestyle?

And in case you do not get a H1B visa, you return to India to get a 20-30 lakh job? I am not sure but this looks like a very risky thing unless you have sufficient funds or take help from your parents.

You can apply for the visa 3/4 years in a row while working in the US depending on your STEM status. If you still dont get in, then you relocate.

The 150k-200k is the total cost of the program for 2 years including living expenses.

About the salary, its 130k pre tax. So depending on which state in the US you are, that can go down by a big chunk. That's why I picked a safer 4-5 year window.

[libranof1987]

Originally Posted by Saanil

So when you apply for US MBA, you go there on a student Visa which gives you the option to work there for a year. After that, you need to get a H1B visa which is purely lottery based? If you do not secure it, you come back to India right?

Year 1: F1
Year 2: F1
Year 3: F1-OPT or H1
Year 4: if no H1 in Year 3, H1 has to go through the lottery, else you return

MBA cost of 150k dollars - is this per year or for the 2 year course? If after MBA, you starting salary is 130k, I guess you would be saving around 50% of that? I am not sure but it looks like paying back the loan would take 2-3 years? That too with a prudent lifestyle?

$150k is total cost of the MBA: college, staying, food, airfare, preparation etc.

$130k is pre-tax and you can save about $40k with a very good lifestyle as well.

And in case you do not get a H1B visa, you return to India to get a 20-30 lakh job? I am not sure but this looks like a very risky thing unless you have sufficient funds or take help from your parents.

15-20 is more realistic.

[Saanil]

Originally Posted by akshaymahajan

You can apply for the visa 3/4 years in a row while working in the US depending on your STEM status. If you still dont get in, then you relocate.

The 150k-200k is the total cost of the program for 2 years including living expenses.

About the salary, its 130k pre tax. So depending on which state in the US you are, that can go down by a big chunk. That's why I picked a safer 4-5 year window.

Understood. But an MBA will generally not get you into STEM status right? Assuming no STEM status, that means you get 2 attempts at H1B. The probability of getting a H1B visa is around 25% (60k applicants out of 240k)?

[akshaymahajan]

Originally Posted by libranof1987

McKinsey & Company, Bain, The Boston Consulting Group

libranof1987

Appreciate your detailed reply.

This is where, having an MS comes in handy. STEM (Science, Tech, Engg, Maths) grads get a three year OPT.

I think you can be eligible for STEM having an MBA as well if you take certain classes in certain schools.

At this moment, consulting and technology (Product Manager) roles are the only sure shot roles that you will find companies hiring international students.

Pure Finance are very, very difficult to come by; Marketing is no-go since companies want someone who understand the US market.

Since I come from a consulting background and will be moving into a PM role shortly, that works for me.

Overall, this isn't the best time for an MBA in the US. Or MBA in general.

Curious to know why you say MBA in general. Coming from an enginnering background, I want to go to school to get a strong foundation of business. The netwrork and the doors an MBA degree opens are all added bonuses.

Desperately want to go to the US? I'd recommend an MIS degree. 80% of an MBA at 50% the cost, and being part of STEM, twice the no. of shots at the H1!

Not at all! I am pretty sure I dont want to stay in the US in the long run. Hence considering if the investment is worth it.


My current thought process:
The US B Schools have an advantage of huge, strong networks across the world. It is because these schools are older, and have bigger class sizes on average. Hence they have more brand value across continents. They are two year programs and having visitied campus and attended classes, I can safely say I love the whole experience. Current political scenario/visa uncertainity is going to impact short term oppurtunities. And until the time you get an H1, you will have that constant fear
I belive top Non-US B-Schools are still in the growing phase and hence they will keep improving with time. The EU market is also opening doors to non native language speakers and that will mean international students will have a slightly better portfolio of jobs they are eligible for. One year course, cheaper considering both tuition and oppurtunity cost. At the same time, Brexit may cause short term issues- but impact will be exponentially less than the Trump saga.

So if I were to think long term, I see EU/Asian schools growing more rapidly and with INSEAD already becoming #1 in FT rankings, I see EU schools getting more repute across continents.

[libranof1987]

Originally Posted by akshaymahajan

Curious to know why you say MBA in general. Coming from an enginnering background, I want to go to school to get a strong foundation of business. The netwrork and the doors an MBA degree opens are all added bonuses.

Because the world is moving away from the need of pureplay managers.

Most organizations need a tech (not just IT, any core science) guy with good business acumen, rather than a "manager".

I think an MBA is most effective when you get into Investment Banking, a pure Finance/Marketing role, or a consulting role with the MBBs. The first two being very difficult for int'ls and the last being very difficult by virtue.

Almost all other roles are such that an MBA adds negligible value.

Most of my friends in tech firms (Google, NetApp, Microsoft, VMware etc) in Product Manager roles have majority colleagues that have just risen through ranks, despite not having an MBA.

Three years into my MBA, I strongly wonder if an MS would have been a better choice.

Of course, who's to say if this degree will give fruits much later in life.

Not at all! I am pretty sure I dont want to stay in the US in the long run. Hence considering if the investment is worth it.

In the current scenario, a gamble.

They are two year programs and having visitied campus and attended classes, I can safely say I love the whole experience.

True; my *biggest* takeway from the MBA has been perspective. Sitting in a classroom with students from 15-20 nations discussing cases teaches you more about business than any textbook.

[akshaymahajan]

Originally Posted by libranof1987

Because the world is moving away from the need of pureplay managers.

I partially do agree with this. But like you perfectly said, the perspective you gain and the mindset you develop helps you develop as an individual. And even if you are not a pure manager, these characteristics will help even in roles like Product Development.

Also there are a lot of avenues that you cannot pursue even if you are right for the role because you do not have that degree on your resume. (some consulting firms for example hire only MBA grads in India at Associate/Consultant unless you recruit as a manager/partner throuh your network)

[Saanil]

I spoke to a friend of mine who is planning to go to US for his MBA (i.e. starting in 2018). He told me that loans are given for a period of 7-10 years at Libor plus 7%. The universities have tie ups with financial institutions which provide financing. I am told that Indian banks provide loans of up to 25 lakhs only and that too at high interest rates.

My friend is looking to hire a consultant for advising him on writing his application (essay?). I was surprised when I heard this but he tells me that this is very common. The consultants provide you with a framework/structure for tackling such questions. I was under the impression that most of the candidates do this themselves (probably taking help from internet though).

Did anyone here also use a consultant for writing essays? How was your experience? Do you think they add value to your application or just give you gyaan often found on the internet?

[libranof1987]

Originally Posted by Saanil

My friend is looking to hire a consultant for advising him on writing his application (essay?). I was surprised when I heard this but he tells me that this is very common. The consultants provide you with a framework/structure for tackling such questions. I was under the impression that most of the candidates do this themselves (probably taking help from internet though).

Did anyone here also use a consultant for writing essays? How was your experience? Do you think they add value to your application or just give you gyaan often found on the internet?

Ask your friend not to hire a consultant for these things; they don't add any value to the application. Just the basic structure on what goes into the essay. This is something you can easily find on the school's website (guide on what the essays should contain).

Plus, every bschool in the US has its own unique set of questions, so there's no one-size-fits-all.

While in business school, I served on the Admissions Committee as a Graduate Assistant. You'll be surprised how alike the 300 Indians applications the school receives are.

And this is something every Admissions Committee in every school realizes: there are certain aspects every Indian will highlight:

1) Ask for heroes or idols and by default, they are Tata and Gandhi
2) Started/worked in an NGO
And so many other points that you can almost generalize an Indian application

What matters is "your" story: make the application about your aspirations, thoughts and perspective.

The single most important thing in an application is "fit": why is the school you are applying to a good fit for you, and why are you a good fit for the school.

Highlight this.

From personal experience, an average essay took about a month to write. I started the process of applying to bschools in Aug and once I'd made a list of schools I wanted to apply to, I had the essay topics. That's when I started writing and through several drafts, I had the finished product by Oct, which was the 1st deadline.

Your application should be as "you" as possible.

[akshaymahajan]

Originally Posted by Saanil

I am told that Indian banks provide loans of up to 25 lakhs only and that too at high interest rates.
\

Correct. Institutions like Prodigy finance have tie ups with certain schools and provide loans at cheaper rates.

If your friend has a co-signer in the US, he may be able to get loans at even lesser rates (~5 if I remember correctly)

Originally Posted by libranof1987

Ask your friend not to hire a consultant for these things; they don't add any value to the application.

To add to this, ask your friend to do his research on the school. And highlight the same in the essay.

[Eddy]

Anyone here who has cracked an executive MBA interview at one of the older IIMs recently? My cousin is looking for some guidance, he has his interview scheduled in October first week.

Thanks in advance