[sinharishi]

Originally Posted by am1m

Not sure if such jobs will involve big bucks though.

It kind of depends on the role. To give an example - the current going rate for a Senior Network Engineer with 10+ years of experience in a big city like NYC, SFO is about 80-100$ and hour (after vendor cut). Some financial institutions or OEMs pay a lot more. Certifications do add-on value. Pre-covid the rates were very high.

The downside of such roles are - no benefits, fired without notice, no company sponsored freebies, no job security, short-term contracts - 3,6,9 months to maximum 12 months. Upside is less taxes, flexibility in switching jobs, more money maybe?

Not sure if these roles exist in India and if they do, are paid well.

[One]

Originally Posted by SoumenD

.....or let go of their offers.

Link

I don't think that's an accurate statement as per the article. Unless there is a better source you may have, would refrain from using the link to state the above.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by warrioraks

Here are my musings on the topic of organizational financial planning.

Excellent post, thank you for your considered, measured response to what was a bit of a rant on my side.

Though, what I was describing was reality at a company I used to work with. They used to shower employees with gifts, company branded swag, offsites at the drop of a hat, even flying people from different places. And after all that, two rounds of layoffs in the last 2 years. I've been opening LinkedIn all this week to see more of my former colleagues add the 'open to work' banner on their profiles. Depressing really.

[Samurai]

Infosys Salary Hike Update: Bad News For Employees As Appraisal Delayed

https://www.india.com/business/infos...oyees-6161970/

TCS defers lateral hires, Infosys defers hikes... this will signal the rest of the players to take shelter in the shadow of giants and do similar acts.

Regarding consulting, please don't hold your breath. There is a cultural problem in India which doesn't let part-time consulting to become the norm. When I came out of my first startup, I was 50 and had the right credentials to be a consulting architect. It is not a gig job either, because the input of architect would be required continuously, and not just in the beginning. This is not a house construction. But part-time will do just fine.

But companies in India only wanted fulltime employees to play that very important role, even if they overlook my age. Senior architects are very difficult to find in Indian IT where most are pushed to become managers after 5-10 years. Yet, each company wants to hire full time senior architects, even though part-time consulting architects can easily fill the role. This is very common in USA, but in India it is a no-go area.

Even those who are open to accepting part-time consulting, will only approve large consulting companies that are both expensive and less useful. So good luck on getting any consulting deals as an individual.

[AirbusCapt]

A offer letter is a signed contract with a hard start by date. If that contract is violated by offering a deferred future date, does the contract still stand? Or is a revised offer letter provided?
Employees must ask for a deference clause from now on, companies must pay a certain amount to the employee if they reschedule their offer.
Is there no legal protection for employee rights in IT? What is the IT union doing in such cases?

On a different note, since these IT giants are behaving so unethically, i feel its only right that employees dont respect their notice period, agree to join and dont show up, multiple job hop etc.

[Guna]

Originally Posted by AirbusCapt

A offer letter is a signed contract with a hard start by date. If that contract is violated by offering a deferred future date, does the contract still stand? Or is a revised offer letter provided?
Employees must ask for a deference clause from now on, companies must pay a certain amount to the employee if they reschedule their offer.
Is there no legal protection for employee rights in IT? What is the IT union doing in such cases?

On a different note, since these IT giants are behaving so unethically, i feel its only right that employees dont respect their notice period, agree to join and dont show up, multiple job hop etc.

Do you think that graduates will be in a position to insist on such clause or rather be happy that at least there is a job waiting even if the start date is delayed? I am sure that there would be clause in the offer letter which states that 'the offer can be withdrawn any time.....'
Differing the stat date is painful for the graduates but it is not really unethical from the employer's perspective as they need to guard their interest.
Also, IT sector has done well in India because there are no 'unions' fighting for 'rights'. There are enough laws IT companies have to abide by to protect the 'rights' within reasonable limits.

[AirbusCapt]

Originally Posted by Guna

Do you think that graduates will be in a position to insist on such clause or rather be happy that at least there is a job waiting even if the start date is delayed? I am sure that there would be clause in the offer letter which states that 'the offer can be withdrawn any time.....'
Differing the stat date is painful for the graduates but it is not really unethical from the employer's perspective as they need to guard their interest.
Also, IT sector has done well in India because there are no 'unions' fighting for 'rights'. There are enough laws IT companies have to abide by to protect the 'rights' within reasonable limits.

Painful is not the right word, cheating is more appropriate. Just because they are fresh graduates is it somehow acceptable to make them join after 6 months? Or ask them to join at half pay?
This very thinking has now encouraged TCS to defer joining of senior lateral hires. Yes those people with emi, kids and family responsibilities are now to sit jobless after resigning to join TCS.
Since there are no unions or appropriate laws has the IT sector has done "well". Does it mean these bodyshopping factories are actually incompetent and will collapse as soon as they are forced to do business ethically?

[IAmGroot]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Yet, each company wants to hire full time senior architects, even though part-time consulting architects can easily fill the role. This is very common in USA, but in India it is a no-go area.

Technically all senior architects in India based service companies are part time consultants within their own organization. They could be on multiple projects on pro-rata basis or be part of a greater practice from where they are loaned to various projects. Some organization's cross the boundary and avail services of senior architects on multiple projects while they are fully billed by a single client.

For a service organization, a senior architect must wear many hats and be part of pre-sales, a part time consultant won’t suffice. It must be cheaper to on-board a full-time architect and get 10 different things done than paying a premium for a consultant who will have a fixed scope of work.

[d.w.w.]

Originally Posted by Thebat

I for one never expected a TATA group company to stoop so low.

Having worked with TCS, I can tell you the Tata Ethics and the code of conduct is(was?) followed only by the top management. Down below, people at the PM/AM/GL level has no ethics whatsoever and will do anything to meet their targets and earn their variable pay. This includes impersonification, timesheet fraud etc. I believe the current decision to defer joining dates were taken at such level.

Couple of years back TCS brought in a policy not to re-hire anyone who has worked with TCS before. This has considerably reduced the hiring pool for TCS and with this news in the press, nobody will be ready to take an offer from TCS.

Originally Posted by Guna

Do you think that graduates will be in a position to insist on such clause or rather be happy that at least there is a job waiting even if the start date is delayed?

Fresh graduates have no bargaining power.(until the corresponding college is rooting for them) We are taking about lateral hires who were already holding salaried jobs and having commitments/ family to feed. It makes no sense to offer them a job and deferring the offer by months. Its just like asking them to find other job.

Originally Posted by AirbusCapt

Employees must ask for a deference clause from now on, companies must pay a certain amount to the employee if they reschedule their offer.

It is very difficult to get a clause added. One time I rejected a job offer since the company had a notorious history of fire and hire. The company was desperate to hire a person with my skillset so they came back telling they can provide it in writing that I will not be fired. In fact they arranged one on ones with their leadership team to provide the assurance. Finally I accepted the offer and just before the offer letter was sent out, the HR called up and told they cannot add the clause since the offer letter is generated from a template and a custom statement cannot be added to it. They offered to send another letter separately which I never received.

[Guna]

Originally Posted by d.w.w.

Fresh graduates have no bargaining power.(until the corresponding college is rooting for them) We are taking about lateral hires who were already holding salaried jobs and having commitments/ family to feed. It makes no sense to offer them a job and deferring the offer by months. Its just like asking them to find .

Agree they can't make you to resign from the current job and then back out. But I guess one should always anticipate such possibilities and take steps during these recession times. If companies can layoff employees, differing offer letters is not a big deal for them

[am1m]

Originally Posted by d.w.w.

...so they came back telling they can provide it in writing that I will not be fired.

Massive red flag! How on earth can any company provide such an assurance? And how would they agree to provide something like this in writing?! I think at best they can do is specify how many month's salary they will pay you as severance pay if they decide to lay you off. But chances are they never intended to ever put this 'will not be fired' clause in writing. So the story about template, etc.

If the HR department is willing to spin stories like this, it's still a big red flag, you're probably lucky you didn't join.


(Amazing, some of the stories you hear about IT recruitment, both from the candidate and the company side. Made for each other!)

[Yieldway17]

This HR tactic of them saying that the offer letters follows a company template is semi-truth. Yes, it follows a company template and they strive it to be standard across the company as otherwise it can cause difficulties enforcing the policy.

But at the same time, offer letter addendums are a simple task which in most companies a Sr. Director level person can approve off.

I have seen how the companies negotiate hard for custom contracts with their small time vendors but turn around and enforce their contracts when it suits them for their own contracts.

A legal department Director I worked with in one of my ex-org was a kind soul who often overruled HR in a positive way for our customers, vendors, and employees. Need more people like that in the corporate world.

[d.w.w.]

Originally Posted by am1m

If the HR department is willing to spin stories like this,

Well, the story didn't end there. This particular HR was giving me lecture on how good the company is and blah blah and in 2 months this guy resigned. I saw his farewell mail from a mutual friend and it was a fun read. He was using all possible bad words to describe the company and his bosses .

One thing I have learnt over the years is not to believe anything that comes from the HR's month until you see that on paper.

[m8002?]

Just playing the devil's advocate. Full disclaimer, I am a salaried employee.

Why do people think companies deferring joining date is criminal while employees are well within their right to ghost companies with multiple offers in hand? What about all those guys who were "making hay in the bright sunshine" last year? They should have enough hay now to weather the current rains/winter? Like the saying goes, Karma is a ***** and always comes back to bite you. A few of us predicted this happening is matter of when and not if.

Now, I clearly understand that there there is a collateral damage and not everyone impacted today, ghosted companies or kept changing jobs every 3 months last year. But people need to be fully aware of the macro environment they are in.

Coming to the companies, I don't know the legal aspects of giving an offer and withdrawing it. My guess is, the company is deferring it in the hope that these guys will join elsewhere and they will not need to onboard them.

Is the company's current action right or not? I think its not but I guess its about as right or wrong as employees ghosting the employers.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by IAmGroot

For a service organization, a senior architect must wear many hats and be part of pre-sales, a part time consultant won’t suffice. It must be cheaper to on-board a full-time architect and get 10 different things done than paying a premium for a consultant who will have a fixed scope of work.

I was not targeting service companies at all. I was targeting products companies in my domain, none of them have more than 500 employees. So they wouldn't have full time work for senior architects. However, they prefer to hire a senior architect and make him do all other kind of peripheral work when he is otherwise free. This is not something I wanted to touch even with a barge pole.