[anoopGTkrish]

Originally Posted by TM_Turbo

Hi All

I am in a very disturbed state of mind, I thought I can take suggestions from this forum

I was working for an organisation and I was leading a team of 30 people, last year I moved to one of the competitor company due to financial reasons and it’s been 6 months now.

Can you all please share your thoughts

There is absolutely no reason for you to worry. You are not in the wrong here. Anti poaching clauses are clearly written with an intent to avoid competitors enticing employees directly. These clauses cannot stop an employee from applying to any company they are interested in. This means that, as long as the applicants are following the normal lateral hiring route of your current employer, you have nothing to worry.

If you want to be extra sure, refer to your former employer's offer letter to make sure it doesn't stop lateral hiring completely (unlikely unless you were in a super senior position) or have clauses about anti competition that specifies your current employer.

As an HR professional myself, I consider this act of threatening with no base as highly unethical. At the minimum, you should respond with a strongly worded mail that the accusations are baseless and you will take legal actions if the harassment continues.

Side note: It's not exactly ethical to be part of an interview panel if you know the interviewee personally. This is a clear conflict of interest and can land you in trouble in case of a whistleblower situation. There will literally be no way for you to prove a lack of bias towards your former colleagues/ friends. Volunteer out of the panel if you see a conflict of interest.

[mally2]

Originally Posted by TM_Turbo

As a growing organisation there are lot of openings and few people my previous organisation and previous team have joined my current organisation based on their own decisions and I have not influenced any one.

Now I am getting calls from previous organisation HR stating that they heard I have been poaching their employees by forcing them to join my current organisation which is unethical and it’s against anti poaching policy.

They can’t do diddy squat. Tell them to take a hike. Unless you plan on returning back to such a toxic company with silly HRs I would not bat an eyelid.

Enjoy your new job. And be glad if any that people are motivated to leave for greener pastures. Corporate Loyalty is overrated.

[rakesh_r]

Originally Posted by TM_Turbo

Now I am getting calls from previous organisation HR stating that they heard I have been poaching their employees by forcing them to join my current organisation which is unethical and it’s against anti poaching policy.
Can you all please share your thoughts

So does your previous employer, i presume they also entertain referral candidates, isn't that poaching?
Next time when they call or contact you, be calm yet firm and never loose your cool. As a fellow bhpian mentioned, revert saying you will be consulting your lawyer on this, that's enough to knock some sense.
I have been in similar situation where i was called upon by my ex boss who started blaming me for people joining my now previous organisation.
And, as you said, I was part of the Interview panel, and have always refrained from conducting tests and F2Fs of known people.

[gupta_chd]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Doesn't Finacle require huge amount of customization for each client? In that case you can't really file it under product. I would classify it as a framework or platform, instead of readymade product.

Having worked on Finacle Dev and implementation for few years, I can say it's a packaging of both product and services. But it is a product for sure.

There are clients who do not engage parent company for customization and support. They do it themselves or outsource to some third party. There are many big names which provide services and support for Finacle. Parent company makes money from sale/billing of product and services too if they are engaged.

[LegalEagle]

Originally Posted by TM_Turbo

Unfortunately I have to take the interviews as I am the only Lead in the team, but this is a nice suggestion, will see if I can find any alternative

Thank you, I have informed my boss about the situation and he says this is just a mind game and they are trying to scare me so that I don't select any more employees from previous organisations

I am part of interviews but the referrals are from different employees

Hi Narayan, Thank you for your inputs, like I said I have not forced people to join my current organization and there is no letter or email been sent out by me asking them to join my organisation. I also checked the offer letter from my previous organisation and there is nothing mentioned such as anti poaching policy or soliciting employees. However as part of exit process there is a policy that the employees has to sign which states "not to induce or attempt to induce any person employed by the firm to leave the employment of the firm".

Due to the professional relationship that I have built with my ex colleagues they all want to follow me and they reach out to me over whatsapp asking me if there are any openings and the only response that I give them is " There might be few openings coming up and I will let them know about it" but later I don't even have to inform them, as there are few people already joined they itself refer more people, however previous organisation thinks that I am the influencer and I am pulling in people

Originally Posted by TM_Turbo

Thank you for your inputs, this kind of gives me some moral support, I have heard a lot of depression, anxiety, etc in the corporate world but for the first time experiencing it and it is horrible

The problem is I am in the interview panel in my current organisation and people from previous organisation think that I am just selecting people from my previous team because I want poach people

Hi TM_Turbo,

As my handle says, I am a lawyer by profession (fortunately/unfortunately depending on conditions).

So here are my thoughts -
1. No one - even the Supreme Court - can prohibit you from working for a competitor - provided you do not use any confidential information from previous employer.
2. There are so many workarounds of poaching, it is an impossible thing to prove.
3. Informal communications are in personal capacity and have no impact whatsoever.
4. You are on the interview panel due to your position and learning - a determination by your current employer.
5. The phonecalls from HR are purely unofficial. You have no legal obligation to reply or respond to any of those - subject to your F&F getting done.
6. The most important one - Unless and until you receive a notice, CHILL.

Now - if you do receive a notice, DM me. I will find a lawyer for you easily.

Now, a point of relevance - For all team members, please educate people around you -
1. No non compete can be enforced in a court of law, unless it is proved that you are truly non replaceable and have unique knowledge which should not and cannot be reproduced or reused anywhere - Government Defence sector mainly.
2. Only importance should be given for a notice signed by the Legal Counsel or external counsel for any company. Do not worry about emails/calls from HR.
3. Referrals can be a breach of non - solicit provided there is no public opening. Usually, one of the public portals will have an opening.

Hope this helps.

[TM_Turbo]

Originally Posted by Guna

Is there any formal agreement between 2 companies regarding poaching?
If there is an opening and you let formal colleagues know about it and eventually make attractive offers, there is nothing unethical about it. How can you force someone to join? You can only make compelling offers which is a normal thing.
If they try to go the legal way, they will be hurting their own cause (I am sure they would have hired people from competitors and one can make the same allegations against them)
If you get a call again, tell them that you feel being harassed and would take a legal action. In fact put this in a mail and copy the HR head as well.

There is no anti poaching agreement between these companies and after hearing from this forum I feel HR is just trying to play a mind game with me

Originally Posted by AirbusCapt

Get a competent lawyer and send out a legal notice to the HR asking for compensation for defamation and damage. That should stop the fishing expedition. Be sure in your mind beforehand that you truly didnt influence anyone to leave your earlier company though.

I do not want to escalate at this point of time, but if they continue to do this then I will make it clear that this is an harassment

Originally Posted by IAmGroot

I am assuming that your "Full and Final" is all settled from previous organization, and they are not that evil to hold back on any pending dues company owes you. If F&F is squared-off and you are in possession of experience letter, then need not worry.

Since you have already informed current organization about the situation, I would not worry too much. Focus on your current job and role.

I do hope that you have ex colleagues that you can talk to informally without crossing any line and try to understand the situation.

In case the HR keeps pestering you, please keep your composure and do no react in any negative way. Keep a very formal and crisp reply like we hear on any customer complaint calls. I don't know how ethical or correct it is, however, you can record conversation next time they call you. Do not tell them or let them know about recording. Dashcam's are need of the day in all aspects of life.

My F&F was done long back it’s been 9 months since I moved to my current organisation and now in my team I have 4 people from my previous organisation which none of them are my referrals, and these people keep referring from previous organisation as they have relevant experience

Originally Posted by d.w.w.

I'm in a similar situation, but even then I never interview anyone who I personally know. Doing so can land you in trouble with the current company also. whenever I am asked to interview someone I know, I reject it(in email) and pass a feedback about the candidate to the hiring manager. If the feedback is good, the hiring manager will use this as a baseline and arrange interview with someone else with a similar/compatible skillset to avoid conflict of interest.


Exactly. HRs are under too much pressure to find new resources when people leave the company. And if it is a niche skill, the pressure is even more. So they try to play such unofficial threats to avoid more resignations. Most of the time such threats are over phone calls only and the moment you ask them to send it in an email, they stop calling.

I have told my boss that I do not want to interview but they are like do not worry nothing can happen and we do not have anyone else with this process knowledge and hence I only have to interview

Originally Posted by anoopGTkrish

There is absolutely no reason for you to worry. You are not in the wrong here. Anti poaching clauses are clearly written with an intent to avoid competitors enticing employees directly. These clauses cannot stop an employee from applying to any company they are interested in. This means that, as long as the applicants are following the normal lateral hiring route of your current employer, you have nothing to worry.

If you want to be extra sure, refer to your former employer's offer letter to make sure it doesn't stop lateral hiring completely (unlikely unless you were in a super senior position) or have clauses about anti competition that specifies your current employer.

As an HR professional myself, I consider this act of threatening with no base as highly unethical. At the minimum, you should respond with a strongly worded mail that the accusations are baseless and you will take legal actions if the harassment continues.

Side note: It's not exactly ethical to be part of an interview panel if you know the interviewee personally. This is a clear conflict of interest and can land you in trouble in case of a whistleblower situation. There will literally be no way for you to prove a lack of bias towards your former colleagues/ friends. Volunteer out of the panel if you see a conflict of interest.

Thank you for your suggestions, I will again try to convince my current employer not to put me in the interview panel

Originally Posted by mally2

They can’t do diddy squat. Tell them to take a hike. Unless you plan on returning back to such a toxic company with silly HRs I would not bat an eyelid.

Enjoy your new job. And be glad if any that people are motivated to leave for greener pastures. Corporate Loyalty is overrated.

Originally Posted by rakesh_r

So does your previous employer, i presume they also entertain referral candidates, isn't that poaching?
Next time when they call or contact you, be calm yet firm and never loose your cool. As a fellow bhpian mentioned, revert saying you will be consulting your lawyer on this, that's enough to knock some sense.
I have been in similar situation where i was called upon by my ex boss who started blaming me for people joining my now previous organisation.
And, as you said, I was part of the Interview panel, and have always refrained from conducting tests and F2Fs of known people.

Originally Posted by LegalEagle

Hi TM_Turbo,

As my handle says, I am a lawyer by profession (fortunately/unfortunately depending on conditions).

So here are my thoughts -
1. No one - even the Supreme Court - can prohibit you from working for a competitor - provided you do not use any confidential information from previous employer.
2. There are so many workarounds of poaching, it is an impossible thing to prove.
3. Informal communications are in personal capacity and have no impact whatsoever.
4. You are on the interview panel due to your position and learning - a determination by your current employer.
5. The phonecalls from HR are purely unofficial. You have no legal obligation to reply or respond to any of those - subject to your F&F getting done.
6. The most important one - Unless and until you receive a notice, CHILL.

Now - if you do receive a notice, DM me. I will find a lawyer for you easily.

Now, a point of relevance - For all team members, please educate people around you -
1. No non compete can be enforced in a court of law, unless it is proved that you are truly non replaceable and have unique knowledge which should not and cannot be reproduced or reused anywhere - Government Defence sector mainly.
2. Only importance should be given for a notice signed by the Legal Counsel or external counsel for any company. Do not worry about emails/calls from HR.
3. Referrals can be a breach of non - solicit provided there is no public opening. Usually, one of the public portals will have an opening.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for your support, this really empowers each individual who are in similar situations. Will keep you posted if there is any progress in this matter

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by LegalEagle

Hi TM_Turbo,

As my handle says, I am a lawyer by profession (fortunately/unfortunately depending on conditions).

So here are my thoughts - <--->
Hope this helps.

Dear LegalEagle,

I have observed more than a few times now that you go out of your way to offer real & meaningful legal advice to members on various matters. Thank you for doing this. It helps build the culture of co-operation at Team BHP.

With regards,
V.Narayan

[Naetik30]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Here is an gold-plated article everyone should read. It is the interview of Kanwal Rekhi, a known name in IT since the 80s and he has some blunt words for the likes of Byjus.









https://the-captable.com/2023/06/kan...a-split-india/

Wipro and Infosys basically run their business on paying the least possible to the most number of engineers. When Wipro couldnt low ball engineering graduates any more they started the WASE program to hire BSc graduates at even lower rates. Put them on a 5 year bond with a Masters from BITS Pilani thrown in. Then they found it wasteful to pay BITS and started Azim Premji University to basically give out Masters degrees.

So, yes BYJUs is a fraud. But lets not use Wipro as a reference point for anything. Same goes for Infosys. It was just another sweatshop with a founder who bought out the media to sing his praises for ever.

[Stribog]

Originally Posted by Naetik30

Wipro and Infosys basically run their business on paying the least possible to the most number of engineers. When Wipro couldnt low ball engineering graduates any more they started the WASE program to hire BSc graduates at even lower rates. Put them on a 5 year bond with a Masters from BITS Pilani thrown in. Then they found it wasteful to pay BITS and started Azim Premji University to basically give out Masters degrees.

So, yes BYJUs is a fraud. But lets not use Wipro as a reference point for anything. Same goes for Infosys. It was just another sweatshop with a founder who bought out the media to sing his praises for ever.

Byjus has a ln EBITDA of (-)170% and an ROCE of (-)56%.

Infosys has an average EBITDA of 18% over the past 5 years, and an ROCE of 41%. Wipro has similar numbers.

You might not like their model but they are actual, well run businesses. Byjus is just pure unadulterated scamville.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Naetik30

Wipro and Infosys basically run their business on paying the least possible
So, yes BYJUs is a fraud. But lets not use Wipro as a reference point for anything. Same goes for Infosys. It was just another sweatshop with a founder who bought out the media to sing his praises for ever.

Every business in the world runs on the principle of buying input factors {of which labour i.e. you are one} at the lowest price practical and sell at the highest price practical and if possible make a margin in between to pay the shareholders. You may not like the salaries WIPRO or Infosys pay but then no one, but on one, is compelling you to work for them. But clearly there are about 575,000 employees out there for whom it works! All 575,000 of them couldn't be fools? Just like you are not obliged to work at WIPRO/Infosys for the wages they offer they are not obliged to pay what you desire.

And unlike utterly dishonest BYJU's, WIPRO/Infosys and other real businesses pay taxes, deposit provident fund on time, don't run pure scams against their customers and do old fashion stuff like paying a return to the shareholder and repay their debts!

On another tangent, not linked to @Naetik30's post, I observe several times employees of software companies making the unsaid assumption that the company is being run for them and that they alone are central to the company's existence. Each company has several factors of production - capital, infrastructure, labour, technology, - labour is one of them: important but not central. Similarly, once up and running every company has several stakeholders - customers, shareholders, debtors, Govt, labour, society - each of their needs have to be fulfilled and balanced. Employees as a part of labour are but one stakeholder. If I had to pick a 'most important' stakeholder I'd pick the customer.

[Naetik30]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Every business in the world runs on the principle of buying input factors {of which labour i.e. you are one} at the lowest price practical and sell at the highest price practical and if possible make a margin in between to pay the shareholders. You may not like the salaries WIPRO or Infosys pay but then no one, but on one, is compelling you to work for them. But clearly there are about 575,000 employees out there for whom it works! All 575,000 of them couldn't be fools? Just like you are not obliged to work at WIPRO/Infosys for the wages they offer they are not obliged to pay what you desire.

And unlike utterly dishonest BYJU's, WIPRO/Infosys and other real businesses pay taxes, deposit provident fund on time, don't run pure scams against their customers and do old fashion stuff like paying a return to the shareholder and repay their debts!

On another tangent, not linked to @Naetik30's post, I observe several times employees of software companies making the unsaid assumption that the company is being run for them and that they alone are central to the company's existence. Each company has several factors of production - capital, infrastructure, labour, technology, - labour is one of them: important but not central. Similarly, once up and running every company has several stakeholders - customers, shareholders, debtors, Govt, labour, society - each of their needs have to be fulfilled and balanced. Employees as a part of labour are but one stakeholder. If I had to pick a 'most important' stakeholder I'd pick the customer.

Completely agree on where employees stand for a business. My point was only about using the above companies as a yard stick for measuring good business. Infosys and its leaders did destroy shareholder value in an all out ego war with an Ex-CEO.

[car love]

Originally Posted by Naetik30

Wipro and Infosys basically run their business on paying the least possible to the most number of engineers. When Wipro couldnt low ball engineering graduates any more they started the WASE program to hire BSc graduates at even lower rates. Put them on a 5 year bond with a Masters from BITS Pilani thrown in. Then they found it wasteful to pay BITS and started Azim Premji University to basically give out Masters degrees.

So, yes BYJUs is a fraud. But lets not use Wipro as a reference point for anything. Same goes for Infosys. It was just another sweatshop with a founder who bought out the media to sing his praises for ever.

Your post brought back some memories for me. Couple of years ago I met this super high profile finance guy who personally assisted one of these high profile "humble" entrepreneurs.
I'm not naming for obvious reasons. This person i met heartily laughed at the gullibility of the average Indian in believing this "Simple man" tale. According to him the said individual was one of the nastiest individuals he's ever come across

[arnabbhagabati]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Every business in the world runs on the principle of buying input factors {of which labour i.e. you are one} at the lowest price practical and sell at the highest price practical and if possible make a margin in between to pay the shareholders. You may not like the salaries WIPRO or Infosys pay but then no one, but on one, is compelling you to work for them. But clearly there are about 575,000 employees out there for whom it works! All 575,000 of them couldn't be fools? Just like you are not obliged to work at WIPRO/Infosys for the wages they offer they are not obliged to pay what you desire.

I may be wrong, but I feel the service-based companies (TCS, Wipro,Infy etc) are like the middlemen in other sectors, somewhat like the distributors who buys tomato from farmers at 20Rs/kilo and sells at 100 rs/kilo.
This is probably an exaggeration, and not all middleman businesses are bad, but I hope you are getting the point I am trying to make.

True, they do add significant value to the society/community (i.e. they make stuff available at a place and time otherwise would not be available)
True, just like any other business they have the right to buy as cheap as possible and sell as high as possible.
True, they have an obligation to earn as much profit as possible (within legal boundaries) for their stakeholders.
However, if you earn Rs 100 on one end and pay Rs 20 on the other side, I do have a concern.

Also, let's not take away how much they have contributed - they have generated millions of "okayish" paying jobs in a "third world economy" which was and is still crucial for the country. The number of people they have lifted out of poverty (includes me) is probably unparalleled.

However, fact remains that those millions of people working on meagre income (meagre because remember most of them are qualified engineers working with the expenses of a Tier-I city) are not doing so by choice. Unless one does engineering from a Tier I/II college, one really does not have a lot of options.

It's tempting to bring the up that some xyz% of engineering grads are so unskilled that they are unemployable, our college education is bad etc. to justify the salaries. But remember most of the folks that say so in press conferences are also the same folks who are hiring the same grads by thousands since decades.
How much have these folks done to improve the education in those institutes then?
But then one must also realize that if you admit they are good enough, it becomes difficult to justify paying the same (well let's say almost same) meagre starting salary for 10 years, no?

Yes, they have provided employment to millions, but not because out of some good heart to uplift the country as some people tend to project, but because that's what their whole business model and profit model depends on

It is not correct to make this comparison, and this is obviously a gross exaggeration, but just for providing perspective, think about this like the people working in exploited coal mines (again, exaggerated, but like shown in gangs of Wasseypur). Just because a business is generating employment, and any business has the right to maximize profit, does not necessarily mean the generated employment is always ethical.

They are good businesses, but as OP said, I would not use them as yardsticks for moral/ethical business.

[Jaguar]

Originally Posted by arnabbhagabati

They are good businesses, but as OP said, I would not use them as yardsticks for moral/ethical business.

Then which are some of the businesses which are moral/ethical as per your guidelines?

I agree the pay in Indian IT services companies is very low and the starting salaries have not increased with time. But aren't they still paying better salaries than most of the other sectors? The salaries of Teachers, Nurses, etc are a pittance in comparison no? Nobody seems to voice their concern against the schools and hospitals charging exorbitant rates and underpaying their staff. Probably because they don't have the corporate tag.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by arnabbhagabati

I may be wrong, but I feel the service-based companies (TCS, Wipro,Infy etc) are like the middlemen in other sectors, somewhat like the distributors who buys tomato from farmers at 20Rs/kilo and sells at 100 rs/kilo.
True, just like any other business they have the right to buy as cheap as possible and sell as high as possible.
True, they have an obligation to earn as much profit as possible (within legal boundaries) for their stakeholders.
However, if you earn Rs 100 on one end and pay Rs 20 on the other side, I do have a concern.

However, fact remains that those millions of people working on meagre income.
Yes, they have provided employment to millions, but not because out of some good heart to uplift the country as some people tend to project, but because that's what their whole business model and profit model depends on

They are good businesses, but as OP said, I would not use them as yardsticks for moral/ethical business.

Dear @arnabbhagobati, First welcome to Team BHP and thank you for your first post. Thank you for your views and putting it across in a professional way. Made for interesting reading even though as a faded entrepreneur, still with a finger in the IT pie, I tend to disagree with some of what you write.

All,

Using the post above as a marker my comments follow. Not addressed to the author alone but to all in general. Also I'll try to stay with facts and not tumble into opinions, my own mainly.

First, yes, it is true that IT companies in India have used our ample half trained engineering/computer sciences labour market to keep starting salaries low for the last xx years. That is not a trait of the IT industry alone but every industry in this country and in every other country. As an employer allow me to share why that happens - first, the under-graduate passing out in India is barely employable, needs at least a year of on-the-job training to get to the point of being useful and they attrite like there is no tomorrow. All these make it imperative for the employer to look after his flanks before investing more in these starter employees.

Second, who is to say what is an ethical wage? If the employee is willing to work and the employer is willing to offer a job at wage X then that is it - the market wage. Just because some other busybodies, who by the way are not offering any employment to anyone, believe the wage ought to be X+1 then let them put their money where their mouth is and create those jobs. These busybodies are usually wanna be employees.

Third, nobody, but nobody is forcing any one to work for these cruel, exploitative, unethical, godless, heartless, profit seeking IT companies. Fact is engineers from every discipline flock to these IT companies because of the lure of the wages, foreign assignments, better marriage market prospects and working in an air-conditioned office with free, or subsidized, food. The alternative is to work in brick & mortar on the shop floor or field.*

Fourth, industries outside IT believe {and complain} that in India IT and banking have skewed the wage structure so much that being competitive is a challenge especially in face of competition from China in almost every manufactured product.

Fifth, I have always wondered why IT software employees believe that their employers owe them a higher wage as a matter of their right. The typical software employee is forever grumbling about wages, despite being the highest paid in the country for his/her experience+qualification and forever jumping jobs to a better wage. When they are constantly attriting at 30% per annum exercising their right to change jobs within the IT industry, for superior wages, pray how can they grumble about wages. Seems contradictory.

Sixth, the outsourced industry in the world has this off way of pricing by the employee hour a little bit like law firms. This gives the young and naive IT software coder the incorrect impression that he is worth that pricing rate. That pricing is an amalgam of the organization, compliance, quality control, liability management, etc brought to the table by the IT company expressed as a per hour rate. This I believe leads young people to believe incorrectly what they are worth. If they were to step out and try and sell their coding services alone or even as a small entrepreneur, they will achieve the nirvana of true price discovery.

And finally, just because an employer pays us less than what we think we ought to be paid doesn't make the employer immoral or unethical. It is a difference of views that's all. The domestic help working in our homes also feels that way against us, BTW! She also wonders why we don't pay her an extra Rs 1500/- a month when we earn at least 100X to 150X that number!!!

Thank you for reading.

*BTW I started my career in Tata Motors (then TELCO) selling trucks from one tiny town to another living in cheap guesthouses {hovels if you please} with common toilets in exciting places like Satna, Sidhi, Rajnandgaon, Korba, Katni and what have you. India was a lot, lot poorer 40+ years ago and small Tier III & IV towns had no concept of hotels. Millions of young Indians without the advantage of a Tier I/II engineering degrees start their working lives in a similar way today. I believe, like an old man, that there is nothing like a stint in the field and on the shop floor to beat your perspectives of your place under the sun to shape. Software engineers, for no fault of theirs, lose out on that experience. My few years in the field getting kicked around by truckers before moving to the cosy confines of Bombay house's basement were most useful in beating any exaggerated thoughts I had, about myself, out of me.


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Originally Posted by car love

Your post brought back some memories for me. Couple of years ago I met this super high profile finance guy who personally assisted one of these high profile "humble" entrepreneurs. I'm not naming for obvious reasons. This person i met heartily laughed at the gullibility of the average Indian in believing this "Simple man" tale. According to him the said individual was one of the nastiest individuals he's ever come across

One employee's views of an ex-boss has absolutely nothing to do with the topic under discussion! Like most others I can guess whom you are referring to. My opinion isn't too different (!!) - I actually did business with his family office. But our opinions of a big entrepreneur have no bearing on this discussion other than to vent frustrations. Help me.