[mohansrides]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

It’s like dying. Nobody believes it will happen to them ever.

Until it does.

Indeed.

Not to go OT or anything; but some hospitality industry body reported that some 300 restauranters in MH took their own lives in 20-21. That news barely made a splash because we were all busy wringing our hands over Covid.

Let’s think about that for one second. Each restaurant employs at least 10 people and provides business to suppliers and logistics firms. All in all, successful establishments that have fed 1000s of families for decades were gone and no one even blinked.

This is not even considering the lacs of people who were mercilessly driven out of work in other professions and trades because of lockdowns. Most of these unfortunate folk cannot re-skill and get back to the work force; at least they can’t do so easily.

Now these dudes who held white collar jobs (and transferrable skills) in top notch companies with perks, benefits, and what not want us to cry for their lot in life because they lost their shiny jobs.

Hmmm… I think NOT!!

[apachelongbow]

I wouldn't want to post on this thread but a few insensitive posts have forced me to do so. Asking some members to suck it up, quit whining, pointing out that others have had it harder during COVID etc is in extremely poor taste. More than that it reflects your own jealously and bitterness against a few.
Job losses are hard for everyone. If we cannot sympathise or help, one must keep quiet. As a forum we are much better than this.

[mohansrides]

Sure. Yeah, I suppose that that is one view. But there is no compulsion that one must keep quiet if one has nothing nice to say. Being rude is not done. But speaking the truth is certainly not being rude. The entire merit of a forum like this lies in its members speaking the truth. If everyone remains afraid to say anything that is even remotely harsh, there are no real takeaways for people stuck in tough situations. There really is no gentle way to deliver a tough message that will help people weather a storm. Mollycoddling is for kindergarteners; not for full grown adults who have a responsibility to learn from mistakes so that they can do better for their families.

I got laid off not once, not twice, not even thrice; but four times before I even turned 34. And each time I didn’t come and cry about how I am being singled out for a thorough thrashing by the global economy. And each time, I was given the message in no uncertain terms that nothing happens in a vacuum and that maybe my situation had something to do with the fact that I didn’t do work that was relevant or valuable.

Now I am just passing that lesson back for those who have the strength to set aside the tone and to digest the message. That’s all.

Personally, I am long past the point of worrying about whether people think of me as bitter or jealous. Most of us are bitter and jealous at various points in life. It’s how we handle those negative traps and how we chart our next steps that matter. Instead, denying the existence of negative emotions in our streams of consciousness is both delusional and utterly unbelievable.

[Turbohead]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

I wouldn't want to post on this thread but a few insensitive posts have forced me to do so. Asking some members to suck it up, quit whining, pointing out that others have had it harder during COVID etc is in extremely poor taste. More than that it reflects your own jealously and bitterness against a few.
Job losses are hard for everyone. If we cannot sympathise or help, one must keep quiet. As a forum we are much better than this.

I'm sorry but whining does not solve any problems, not even for the one who lost his/her job. Unfortunately, whining only results in sucking the energy of everyone involved in the conversation.

We really need to suck it up, get up and get going ASAP! There's no point crying over spilt milk whether you or someone else is the cause for the distaster.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by mohansrides

Sure. Yeah, I suppose that that is one view. But there is no compulsion that one must keep quiet if one has nothing nice to say. Being rude is not done. But speaking the truth is certainly not being rude. The entire merit of a forum like this lies in its members speaking the truth. If everyone remains afraid to say anything that is even remotely harsh, there are no real takeaways for people stuck in tough situations. There really is no gentle way to deliver a tough message that will help people weather a storm. Mollycoddling is for kindergarteners; not for full grown adults who have a responsibility to learn from mistakes so that they can do better for their families.

Now I am just passing that lesson back for those who have the strength to set aside the tone and to digest the message. That’s all.

Thank you @mohanrides for saying it like it is. People have been getting laid off for decades. Similarly business men like me have faced bankruptcy for decades {two down in my case!!}. Both are tough situations to deal with. Very nerve wrenching and depressing. They hollow out your confidence and self respect. My experience with almost going bankrupt was to damage my own worth in my own eyes. Before social media people leaned on family and their own inner strength to get by. Social media has created, IMHO, a whingeing, poor me, the world owes me a living echo chamber that does more harm than good to young people who are facing the trauma of a lost job. My only advice to those unfortunate to have lost their jobs is to trust your own inner perseverance, wisdom and ability to get back on your feet. 99% of you have it in you to deal with far more adversity than you realize.

One good thing that will come out of the pandemic economic slow down, the salary explosion of '22 and the now looming bust is that the younger generation {including my children} will learn to save for their future.

Little story -- in 1995 I was seated next to a Sikh business gentleman on a flight. I was in my mid-30s ready to conquer the world and he was about late 60s. He had migrated from Faisalabad in Pakistan in 1947. We were discussing the challenges of entrepreneurship, the then still lousy Govt regulations and risk of weak cash flows. He had re-started his shattered life in August 1947 selling fruits on a cart in Punjab to feed his family. And his take on business failure was that if his business collapsed he can always go back to selling fruits and he meant it :-) He had transcended concerns of wealth and social status and like a true Sardar had no fear of failure. Our fear of failure is worse than failure itself.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

He had transcended concerns of wealth and social status and like a true Sardar had no fear of failure.

This is something I would love to achieve. Factually, when I think about it, if the 21-year old me had been told what I would be earning now, I would have been astonished and would wonder what I would do with all that money. Alas, our wants/desires grow exponentially too and now I find myself at the start of middle-age, too timid to even contemplate being laid-off, quitting to freelance, or just to pursue some idea. Not from a financial aspect- I've seen colleagues getting laid off at every single company I've worked at and long ago learned to save and avoid debt (though unfortunately, the investing realization happened only later!), but from a general 'fear of not generating x income every month, what will happen' aspect.

I understand one should not stupidly quit work on a whim, but I think a realization that you can manage without a lot of what we consider 'essentials' today helps.

[PreludeSH]

Last month I was in North for vacation. Our cab driver said during covid, he had to sell fruits and momos to keep paying his EMI for house !

I think for most of us its the lifestyle we are accustomed to which doesnt get taken care by doing smaller jobs. I would be happy to do anything but not sure it will take care of my family and if they can get used to it.

[Chetan_Rao]

Some of it is a failure of our education system too. I don't mean just formal education, all of it. We aren't taught how to deal with success or failure, or the sentiments either brings.

When we succeed, we don't take a moment to appreciate where we got and where we came from, or how much success is 'enough'. We just start obsessing over the next milestone.

When we fail, we don't stop to see it in context of where we are and where we came from. We get busy doom mongering.

Some of us are fortunate to have people around us wise enough to show us how to cope, and be our rock while we regroup.

Some are just the 'born with fortitude' type who dust themselves off and forge ahead.

The rest struggle, while swinging between getting told 'it's the world's fault!' or 'suck it up, you loser!'.

Come to think of it, the same sentiment that makes kids want to kill themselves for failing in school makes them lash out when losing a lucrative job as an adult. That's all they know, all they were ever taught to chase.

It's deeper than just the $$$, but it's easier to judge than to help.

[mohansrides]

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

Some of it is a failure of our education system too. …

Very nicely put. You are absolutely on point. But to be fair, an education system can’t be burdened with teaching a person everything they need to live a life. You learn some stuff at school; the rest you learn as you go along. What really matters is that you see success or failure as lessons to be learned. This doesn’t happen when people feel entitled. But that isn’t all on the education system. To be sure, there are many who have come through that same education system and who retain an enviable humility and crystal clarity about their place in the world.

Originally Posted by PreludeSH

Last month I was in North for vacation. …

Most of us wouldn’t know the half of it.

During the pandemic years, while large swaths of society were steeped in unbearable pain, information workers (IW) enjoyed unprecedented professional ascension. With lockdowns and work-from-home, their privileges skyrocketed - lots of jobs, huge salaries, big bonuses, sizeable increments, zero commute, and not to mention the lowest risk of catching Covid. The term “new normal” was being bandied about with gay abandon and there was a palpable sense of infallibility among IT and software folk.

But all this is perfectly fine and in fact it was as it should be.

What was really disturbing was that while enjoying a windfall of good fortune these information workers and their families were some of the strongest proponents of lockdowns and shutdowns. Their only concern appeared to be their own personal safety. The overarching sentiment was that if others had chosen professions or trades that were outside of the digital economy and that depended on society being open, well then those people were squarely responsible for their own plight and the IW community should not have to endure an open society for the sake of such folk.

Now life has come full circle. Most people with common sense foresaw this inevitability. But apparently the IW community didn’t.

Now the same IW community is practically demanding the empathy that they didn’t provide to the millions of folk who not only lost their livelihoods, but also their lives in many cases as a consequence of not being able to provide for their families during lockdowns. Anyone remember the folks who died walking 1000s of kms to their hometowns in the blistering heat?!

Just for context, I myself am an information worker. But my journey in life has never allowed me even a second of complacency.

Here is a small anecdote.

In 2021, I had placed an order for an item from a local vendor. The item was delivered to me via WeFast courier for which I paid Rs. 60. I put away the package and put it out of my mind. Little did I know that I was about to get a window into someone else’s life that would almost move me to tears.

Just an hour after I got the package, a random person called me. He sounded angry, flustered, and went so far as to call me names. At first, I was furious. Then as the call progressed, clarity ensued.

Apparently the vendor I had ordered from had promised the courier opportunity to the person on the phone who had waited almost 3 hrs for the package. But then the vendor had found another courier who would deliver it for Rs. 20 less and so had abandoned the first guy without informing him.

Now this guy was calling me and venting as to how he lost Rs. 80. He asked me if I had initiated the reallocation of the parcel. I hadn’t of course. In fact I didn’t even know the details of the logistics behind the delivery until he told me.

The guy on the phone spoke fluent English, Marathi, Hindi and Gujarati. He had been an event planner for almost 2 decades and prior to the lockdowns he was earning between Rs. 50,000 and Rs. 1 lac to support a family with two kids and old parents. Now, this dude had invested a full 3 hours to earn just Rs. 80!! And now that opportunity too had been taken from him. Imagine his state of mind!! The desperation. The despondency. I mean, if he had felt compelled to call me, a perfect stranger to him, to let loose the choicest of expletives, what would have been going through his mind?!

Despite my lack of involvement in the logistics choices, I offered to pay him his full charges or even twice his charges if he were to allow me. But the guy had his pride. He declined; then he apologised for yelling at me and disconnected the call.

At that point, I almost wept. I had seen bad days and terrible days in my career. But the economic suffering that people were enduring all around us at that point was astonishing. Absolute misery was unleashed on millions of folk whose stories we will never learn.

Sometimes karmic cycles work faster than we think.

The information workers who are going through it now would do well to look back just 18 months and take heart that their situation will possibly never be as bad as that of that erstwhile event planner who wanted just Rs. 80 and some basic dignity for 4 hours of work as a courier in an unforgiving city.

[Chetan_Rao]

Originally Posted by mohansrides

...You are absolutely on point. But to be fair, an education system can’t be burdened with teaching a person everything they need to live a life. You learn some stuff at school; the rest you learn as you go along...

Literally said so in the second sentence. (Bit in bold).

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

Some of it is a failure of our education system too. I don't mean just formal education, all of it.

Everything and everyone around us is our education system. It's up to us to watch, experience and learn.

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by mohansrides

The information workers who are going through it now would do well to look back just 18 months and take heart that their situation will possibly never be as bad as that of that erstwhile event planner who wanted just Rs. 80 and some basic dignity for 4 hours of work as a courier in an unforgiving city.

I completely agree with you on the utter selfishness demonstrated by the cyber coolie gang in India. They were baking cakes, drinking dalgona coffee and making reels on how great their work from home or work from a beach/resort/Himalayas was. It feels like poetic justice to see them being thrown on the roads like rotten fruits now. However, i stilll feel that enjoying their suffering makes us exactly like them. Seeing IT worker families jobless, struggle to pay emis will not do any justice to the poor labourers who suffered walking hundreds of kms back home. All i am saying is , by all means don't sympathise for the job loss, but be sensitive as to not laugh or gloat.

[sunilch]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

I completely agree with you on the utter selfishness demonstrated by the cyber coolie gang in India. They were baking cakes, drinking dalgona coffee and making reels on how great their work from home or work from a beach/resort/Himalayas was. It feels like poetic justice to see them being thrown on the roads like rotten fruits now. However, i stilll feel that enjoying their suffering makes us exactly like them. Seeing IT worker families jobless, struggle to pay emis will not do any justice to the poor labourers who suffered walking hundreds of kms back home. All i am saying is , by all means don't sympathise for the job loss, but be sensitive as to not laugh or gloat.

Hello apachelongbow, and many others - It is ok to sympathize with anyone who has lost his/her job.

However, the reported tech lay-offs are not huge by numbers on a global scale (so far). So this is not a global doom situation where almost every household will get impacted. Media has blown this out of proportion so far mainly because the companies laying off are connected to the social media world directly or indirectly.

Rest of the world is still slowly recovering from the impact of the Covid-19 induced Pandemic. We will see either no growth or slow growth for a while but I guess we are not at a point where 50% of the world is sitting at home.

[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

I completely agree with you on the utter selfishness demonstrated by the cyber coolie gang in India. They were baking cakes, drinking dalgona coffee and making reels on how great their work from home or work from a beach/resort/Himalayas was. It feels like poetic justice to see them being thrown on the roads like rotten fruits now. However, i stilll feel that enjoying their suffering makes us exactly like them. Seeing IT worker families jobless, struggle to pay emis will not do any justice to the poor labourers who suffered walking hundreds of kms back home. All i am saying is , by all means don't sympathise for the job loss, but be sensitive as to not laugh or gloat.

I don't think he was enjoying it or gloating about their situation. He just called them out on a public forum. He seems to be from their industry as well.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

It feels like poetic justice to see them being thrown on the roads like rotten fruits now.

Really? Folks fired from Big Tech are in the streets now? In reality, any former Big Tech employee can easily find a job by reducing their demand to pre-Covid levels.

[SoumenD]

How times change. Few months back LinkedIn was full of motivational essays on how people managed to crack interviews in their dream organizations(read MAANG). And now while those posts have dried up, the mood is absolutely opposite with stories of how people's lives got disrupted due to the sudden layoffs. Having spent 16 years in the industry and seen one full recession(2008/09) and one half recession(2020 it did start for a small period & now again) all I can say is this is just a phase and it shall pass. A layoff doesn't make you a bad resource as such. Never doubt yourself and keep working towards continuous improving/learning to keep yourself employable.

And yes this should help folks focus on financial discipline. Always remember high reward(Exp X 4/5/6 remuneration) comes with high risk. So make hay while the sun shines, but be prepared for the dark night. Its always a trade-off. Work towards achieving FI, so that by next recession if something like this happens, money(for EMIs/feeding family/maintaining lifestyle) is the last thing you have to worry about.

P.S: I don't work for any of these esteemed orgs(MAANG).