[binand]

Originally Posted by pandabear

I don't understand the paranoia here...

The very people who resist here maintain ids with apple Google Microsoft etc. Also give unnecessary documentation for visas etc but don't want a student unique id?

Here are a few reasons:

1. It might not be the very same people.

2. It might be the same people, but their Apple, Google, Microsoft etc. (AGM from here onwards) accounts could be anonymous. Or the data they share with these could be very limited.

3. Many people consider sharing data with the government to be at an altogether different level than with an LLC that is bound by laws, like AGM. Governments can always make laws that give them ways to renege on any data protection obligations they have.

4. What we share with AGM is strictly on the basis of consent. While it is true that some of these have been accused of violating consent in the past, it is far from being their SOP. Whereas there have been documented instances of random private entities and even political parties misusing granular data collected ostensibly for the delivery of government services.

5. It is true that AGM have revenue streams arising from our data. But to the extent we know about it, they do gatekeep individual's data and monetise only aggregates. With the government that comfort-in-ignorance is simply not there.

6. AGM allows one to walk away and have systems in place that will make them truly forget about us. Government does not ever purge data on citizens.

7. The Puttaswamy judgment unequivocally made privacy a fundamental right in India. Many people aren't comfortable signing away their fundamental rights just because the government suggested they do it.

8. They probably do see that some concessions to fundamental rights might be needed for the orderly conduct of society, but they might be preferring that to be done lawfully with the government clearly communicating what they intend to achieve, the safeguards in place and what the benefits to the end users are.

9. A number of people believe that parents making irreversible, lifetime-lasting choices for their children simply by virtue of being their guardians during their years in minor status is not defensible; that such decisions should be left to the child to make when they attain adulthood.

(Also not sure what you mean by "unnecessary documentation for visas". Every country I have travelled to specifies the documents they need for visa processing; I don't remember any that accepts even one page outside of that.)

[gauravdgr8]

The purpose for Apaar is to have a seamless journey for the students.

1. They don't have to carry their certificates. Just the apaar id.
2. Clearly mitigates fake degree rackets.
3. Govt. gets verifiable data on student journey.

It's a good initiative for ease of consolidation.

[pandabear]

Originally Posted by binand

Here are a few reasons:

1. It might not be the very same people.

2. It might be the same people, but their Apple, Google, Microsoft etc. (AGM from here onwards) accounts could be anonymous. Or the data they share with these could be very limited.

3. Many people consider sharing data with the government to be at an altogether different level than with an LLC that is bound by laws, like AGM. Governments can always make laws that give them ways to renege on any data protection obligations they have.

4. What we share with AGM is strictly on the basis of consent. While it is true that some of these have been accused of violating consent in the past, it is far from being their SOP. Whereas there have been documented instances of random private entities and even political parties misusing granular data collected ostensibly for the delivery of government services.

5. It is true that AGM have revenue streams arising from our data. But to the extent we know about it, they do gatekeep individual's data and monetise only aggregates. With the government that comfort-in-ignorance is simply not there.

6. AGM allows one to walk away and have systems in place that will make them truly forget about us. Government does not ever purge data on citizens.

7. The Puttaswamy judgment unequivocally made privacy a fundamental right in India. Many people aren't comfortable signing away their fundamental rights just because the government suggested they do it.

8. They probably do see that some concessions to fundamental rights might be needed for the orderly conduct of society, but they might be preferring that to be done lawfully with the government clearly communicating what they intend to achieve, the safeguards in place and what the benefits to the end users are.

9. A number of people believe that parents making irreversible, lifetime-lasting choices for their children simply by virtue of being their guardians during their years in minor status is not defensible; that such decisions should be left to the child to make when they attain adulthood.

(Also not sure what you mean by "unnecessary documentation for visas". Every country I have travelled to specifies the documents they need for visa processing; I don't remember any that accepts even one page outside of that.)

Thank you for taking time to explain in great detail.

Please find the replies to your points.

1. The idea of a unique id is to not have same students across boards and states and remove duplicates (read it as removing education fraud), it is more common than we think.

2. My dear, nothing is anonymous. I guess we know the snwden documents. Anonymity on the internet is a myth.

3. Actually I think it is the other way around. LLC are specifically "limited liability" in their name. They can always be arm twisted to share data with other governments anytime they want. They are always compliant.

4. Your data is always mined irrespective of who has it. Precisely my point why are people suspicious of their own country government but trust that foreign countries follow the rule of law to the T.

5. Again, same as above, government does not have a profit motive, but you are the product for all free services the private companies dish out.

6. Myth again. The internet never forgets. Period.

7. Judiciary is a joke in India, do the laws apple to judges? I guess we need to think, In my opinion the problems that plague India are a result of a totally inept judiciary. A fair trial in a time bound manner will make crime pay. This is a totally different discussion. I would say is that even outside India no law is enforced 100%, private companies will always find a way to get around it with the support of judiciary.

8. True

9. Not sure how it applies here. Our practices and habits have evolved over time due to choices made by our ancestors no matter how absurd it may be when you think of it. Think of paper money, it is worth trash. Ideally we should be using gold.

10. Example is your 6 month bank statement and salary certificates for the purpose of Visa. I don't think anyone would feel comfortable to share these two.

I am more uncomfortable about a private company CIBIL that collects all our financial data, rather than a unique student id that tracks the student across boards and schools. I precisely khow the reason this has been implemented as I am facing trouble shifting my kid across boards / schools in the middle of this APAAR registration process.

I guess we have different view points brother shaped by our life experiences. I can just marvel and respect our differences that reflects the society and country we live in.

Originally Posted by gauravdgr8

The purpose for Apaar is to have a seamless journey for the students.

1. They don't have to carry their certificates. Just the apaar id.
2. Clearly mitigates fake degree rackets.
3. Govt. gets verifiable data on student journey.

It's a good initiative for ease of consolidation.

Exactly, we have a great opposition that creates a narrative against any good scheme of the government. The foreign media amplifies it. A section of people with really great intentions blindly believe anything a cnn or nytimes or wapo dishes out forgetting the agenda behind the smokescreen they create.

[Tucker48]

My kid's school sent a few notifications and reminder in the month of November saying there is a last date to enroll and it is mandatory(maharashtra). I ignored all those notifications. One day in January I got a call from the school and they said you have not sent the consent form. I told them " it's not mandatory as per central govt. Also the govt has no right to know how my kid is performing at school. I don't trust the govt with my kid's data, once the kid is grown up, he/she can make a choice"

The school replied please send a no consent form in writing so that they don't face any problems from the govt.

Diving deep into the subject, I found out that the govt has given a target to schools to enroll atleast a particular percentage (as high as 90%) of students in APAAR ID while the govt says it's not mandatory.

My kid is in Grade 1 and I just can't accept the fact that govt has the audacity to ask for first graders details. Why do they want to know about my kid's scores, outdoor activity, extracurricular activity, feedback, etc.? Is this the peak of a surveillance state or there's more to come?

Also going through APAAR details, I didn't find any benefits till atleast class 10 or maybe class 12 depending upon board.

[m8002?]

Originally Posted by gauravdgr8

The purpose for Apaar is to have a seamless journey for the students.

1. They don't have to carry their certificates. Just the apaar id.
2. Clearly mitigates fake degree rackets.
3. Govt. gets verifiable data on student journey.

It's a good initiative for ease of consolidation.

There are two points to this.
1. Just having another number like PAN or DL.
2. The consent for making all the information available to anyone.

I dont think many people have an issue with 1. Its the 2nd part that is concerning. Refer to the opening post on what one has to agree to. Just FYI, all the points you mentioned above can very well be done ( and is done today ) with Aadhaar. My son's 10th, 12th marks, DL, PAN are already linked to Aadhaar and available in Digilocker. So care to explain how APAAR will make accessing this more easier or better?

Originally Posted by pandabear

Thank you for taking time to explain in great detail.
I guess we have different view points brother shaped by our life experiences. I can just marvel and respect our differences that reflects the society and country we live in.

After all that you mentioned, I would have expected your handle name to be your proper name, S/o Fathername and also your address. Maybe add "F/o Kids name" as well while you are at it.

As for the visa, it is you who is applying for it voluntarily. So the analogy is moot. Your point is valid if North Korea forces you to apply for a visa and asks the bank statement. If you are not aware, people from many countries can visit US, Europe, Singapore,etc. without submitting all the docs you mentioned.

Like you concluded, to each his own. So make it "really" voluntary and leave it to the parents to take a call. Not force it on them hiding behind schools ( or poor teachers ) claiming it is "voluntary".

Originally Posted by pandabear

I precisely khow the reason this has been implemented as I am facing trouble shifting my kid across boards / schools in the middle of this APAAR registration process.

Great point. How does having a new APAAR help you and make your kids's admission easy? Lakhs of school kids move from one board to another across cities/towns every year. So whats special in your case that APAAR will magically solve?

Originally Posted by pandabear

Exactly, we have a great opposition that creates a narrative against any good scheme of the government. The foreign media amplifies it. A section of people with really great intentions blindly believe anything a cnn or nytimes or wapo dishes out forgetting the agenda behind the smokescreen they create.

Care to share some links where WAPO and NYT have dished out articles about APAAR, then how the great Indian media has cleared the "smokescreen" ? That will give everyone on this forum a better perspective. Please stick to APAAR discussion. For other topics, you can post in the respective threads.

[Oxy]

Originally Posted by binand

Based on my Aadhaar experience (refused to take one for years, but eventually had to when they made PAN linking mandatory), I don't see much point in resisting. In fact, in this case I'm of the view that taking it might be helpful to our children and we might be owing it to them. Some of the things I imagine that are going to be doable only with APAAR ID or significantly easier with APAAR ID are:

1. Credit transfers.
2. Internships/projects.
3. The so-called "counselling" associated with JEE/NEET and other competitive exams.
4. Stream-of-study changes.
5. Mix-and-match of subjects to build one's own major/minor.
6. Change of school / college.
7. Visiting scholar / Exchange student initiatives.
8. Lifecycle changes like going from X to XI or XII to 1st year of graduation.
9. Domicile quota.
10. Scholarships (with a merit qualifier).

Also why an additional ID instead of Aadhaar? Because domain-specific IDs that are linked with Aadhaar are better than linking everything directly with Aadhaar (in the latter case, protecting and partitioning information will become a problem).

This is exactly the reason I gave my consent. I don't want to make life difficult for my kid going forward.

Imagine when all application forms in future asks you to fill this APAAR ID, what will you do? Would you like seeing your children running around from pillar to post to get their application completed via older traditional methods? It will be quite mentally draining on them when they appear for their boards and other competitive exams.

Also, I think this will get rid of the fake degrees racket to a large extent so that's a welcome positive too.

[binand]

Originally Posted by pandabear

Please find the replies to your points...

You don't have to reply to my "points". I just listed out a number of reasons why, as you put it, people would be paranoid. Your replies are better suited to debate the point with those who you encounter resist APAAR for any or several of these reasons.

But having said that, I will take up this one:

Originally Posted by pandabear

why are people suspicious of their own country government...
government does not have a profit motive...
we have a great opposition that creates a narrative against any good scheme of the government...

One can be trusting of anyone except one's own government. This ought to be life lesson #1. Time and again governments world over have proven this. The power imbalance is so high that citizen-government relationship can never be one of trust but must be transactional with minimal and lawful metadata exchanged.

Originally Posted by Oxy

This is exactly the reason I gave my consent. I don't want to make life difficult for my kid going forward.

If your child applies for higher education in Karnataka, then the process to prove the nativity condition is this currently:

1. Collect study certificates from each school the child attended, for the last N years (N = 7). If you have planned it well you will have only one school to visit.
2. Take each of them to the corresponding BEO office and get them attested. Bangalore city has 13 blocks under 3 different education districts. Sometimes schools on one side of a road is in one block and on the other side, in a different one.
3. Go to a location in central Bangalore with the originals for "document verification" sometime during the K-CET process.

I imagine, with APAAR, all it is going to take is to enter the ID somewhere in the online application and authorise access via an OTP. No need for all that running around.

[Oxy]

On a side note, does anyone here know how to access this on Digilocker?

I don't know what to enter in the Identity Type, Identity Value and Admission Year. Also, the school name of my child does not appear in the list.

[pandabear]

Originally Posted by m8002?

So care to explain how APAAR will make accessing this more easier or better?

Great point. How does having a new APAAR help you and make your kids's admission easy? Lakhs of school kids move from one board to another across cities/towns every year. So whats special in your case that APAAR will magically solve?

APAAR is not implemented now, there are multiple cases where the same student enrolls in different cities/states and also boards. The students write multiple board exams, either on their own or through proxy and choose the one with the best marks, don't ask me how they do it but these frauds are everywhere. The government is aware of this issue hopes to centralize using APAAR.

So whats special in your case that APAAR will magically solve? - well i would not go through this irritant in this forum lets save it for a different day once I see light at the end of the tunnel.
I don't want to discuss the pre-approvals currently required for CBSE direct admissions but I hope it will not be as painful as the process is right now if APAAR is implemented properly.

Originally Posted by m8002?

After all that you mentioned, I would have expected your handle name to be your proper name, S/o Fathername and also your address. Maybe add "F/o Kids name" as well while you are at it.

Like i said i trust the government not the internet peace out brother


As per APAAR website, i can see only positives.

Below is the copy paste from their website:


1. What is APAAR?

APAAR, which stands for Automated Permanent Academic Account Registry, is a specialized identification system designed for all students in India. This initiative is part of the 'One Nation, One Student ID' program launched by the government, aligning with the new National Education Policy of 2020.


2. What are the benefits of APAAR?

APAAR ensures accountability and transparency in education by tracking student progress and streamlining academic records. It enhances efficiency, removes duplicity, minimizes fraud, and includes co-curricular achievements for holistic student development. With multiple use cases, APAAR facilitates following;

Facilitate student mobility
Enhance academic flexibility
Empower students to choose their learning paths of their choice
Acknowledge and validate learning achievements
Since no additional certificates are required to be provided except sharing APAAR id where all credentials are stored, there is no fear of losing hard copy certificates and hence useful for all type of use cases such as transfer from one school to the other, entrance examination, admission, job application, skilling, upskilling etc

3. Why students should have APAAR ID?

APAAR ID - a unique 12-digit code will help students to digitally store, manage, and access all their academic credits, including Score card, marksheets, gradesheet, degrees, diplomas, certificates & co-curricular accomplishments. This ID functions as a permanent digital identity for the student in the education ecosystem.


4. How do students obtain their APAAR ID?

Students need to follow these steps:

Verification: Visit the school to verify demographic details
Parental Consent: Obtain parental consent if the student is a minor
Authentication: Authenticate identity through the school
ID Creation: Upon successful verification, the APAAR ID is created and added to DigiLocker for secure online access

5. What are the prerequisites for generating an APAAR ID?

Before generating an APAAR ID, the following prerequisites must be considered:

The name of student as per student records in UDISE+ must match with the name of the student as per Aadhaar
PEN of student is mandatory for generation of APAAR ID

6. What information is required to create an APAAR ID?

The following student details are mandatory for APAAR ID creation:

UDISE+ Unique Student Identifier (PEN), Student Name, Date of Birth (DOB), Gender, Mobile Number, Mother's Name, Father's Name, Name as per Aadhaar, Aadhaar Number

7. How can I check the status of APAAR ID generation for a student?

As soon as APAAR ID is generated, it is pushed into student's DigiLocker Account. Student can find virtual APAAR ID Card in Issued document section of DigiLocker. The status of APAAR ID generation can also be checked in the UDISE+ Portal under the APAAR Module, which displays a list of students along with their APAAR ID statuses. Students may request their school authority to check the status of their APAAR ID creation.

[deathwalkr]

I can understand that colleges/recruiters etc can tap into the candidates past relevant academic history just by getting his APAAR id. But usually it would be the Xth std marks, XIIth std marks and such i assume.

What necessity is there for this for much younger children who are just starting their journey in academia?

[m8002?]

Originally Posted by pandabear

A
As per APAAR website, i can see only positives.

Below is the copy paste from their website:

I am not sure what to say. Do you expect the APAAR site to list down the negatives along with the positives?

Like someone said, the road is hell is always paved with good intentions.

[binand]

Originally Posted by pandabear

there are multiple cases where the same student enrolls in different cities/states and also boards. The students write multiple board exams, either on their own or through proxy and choose the one with the best marks

I have never heard of this. Can you mention some press reports of this happening? I'm curious how such students meet requirements like attendance, TC etc.

[pandabear]

Originally Posted by binand

I have never heard of this. Can you mention some press reports of this happening? I'm curious how such students meet requirements like attendance, TC etc.

https://m.economictimes.com/news/ind.../108714621.cms

https://www.reddit.com/r/india/comme..._of/?rdt=61833

CBSE atleast takes some action imagine how state government boards are run. I would not risk taking the usual suspect states names but it's a common well known knowledge.

Some of it heard from college students chatter but yeah it's just more rampant than we think. JEENEETARDS and BTECHARDS reddit channels are the undebellies.

[m8002?]

Originally Posted by pandabear

https://m.economictimes.com/news/ind.../108714621.cms

https://www.reddit.com/r/india/comme..._of/?rdt=61833

CBSE atleast takes some action imagine how state government boards are run. I would not risk taking the usual suspect states names but it's a common well known knowledge.

Some of it heard from college students chatter but yeah it's just more rampant than we think. JEENEETARDS and BTECHARDS reddit channels are the undebellies.

Sir, arent you mixing things up. Dummy schools who simply enroll students and give them attendence so that they can prepare for JEE/NEET is very well knowm. Apart from CBSE, even the state govts have been making some noise on this...but it flourishes. Half the students in Allen/Akash/FIITJEE follow this model. These institutes even have tie-ups with these schools. Even some very well known schools allow "partial" attendence and let the students attend these coaching classes.

What you had earlier mentioned was students taking up exams in multiple boards and cities simultaneously. Kids have a tough time studying for one board. How do they manage multiple? Even today, we need to provide the Aadhaar details when filling up the forms for the board exams. If someone can manage multiple exams/boards with Aadhaar as your claim, how will APAAR eliminate this?

[SRM]

Originally Posted by tasty911

If your daughter has an aadhar, use that to login. They will sent OTP to the phone no linked to aadhar.
Not sure how it works if someone does not have aadhar.

Yes, that 's what I had to do. Would have been simpler, if minor's documents could have been added to parents Digilocker login. No use of creating separate logins for now.