[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by somersault

BS4 vs BS6, BS4 is polluting more, specially the diesel. There was no concept of Particulate Matter (PM) limit for petrol in the BS4 and the limit for Diesel for various elements was set tad high.

True, also remember Dieselgate, none of the cars involved in diesel gate were banned in India, many of them not even tested.

One minute standing behind the BS3 or BS4 diesels will show anyone beyond doubt the difference with BS6. I cannot stand a minute behind BS4 Swift, VWs, Etios, Tempo Travellers.

Anyways, it's not the time for whataboutery, if possible pack your bags and leave the gas chamber.

[tbppjpr]

Bangalore - One of the worst Indian city in terms of traffic, roads always stay jam packed. Still AQI stays around 50 despite no ban on any type of vehicles compared to gas chamber Delhi which has phased out so many cars from it's roads in last few years by imposing ban on them.

Why such big difference in AQI of these two metro cities? Only cars are responsible?

AQI Today in both the cities, also included the dusty industrial town Hosur in Bangalore AQI map:






As per the report shared by @dust-n-bones, days with good air have reduced and days with poor air have increased in 2024 compared to 2022 despite phasing out old cars from Delhi.


Report


Look at the chart below:

Report

The vehicular pollution is definitely a factory and going to remain similar, then be there a ban or no ban. But still its not as big a factor as the other two - industrial and construction pollution. The second most blamed element is stubble burning which affects only few days compared to the sustained pollution caused by the industries and construction.

Yet we see only knee jerk actions against cars or law forming against stubble burning.

And ironically the ban on vehicles has also contributed in the industrial pollution by increasing the unnecessary demand of new car which lead into sales of 4 lakh cars peer month today compared to 2.5 lakh cars sold in 2019-2020. I am not even talking about the damage caused to the environment due to mining of resources from mother earth which required to manufacture those unnecessary new cars.

One may argue that the car manufacturing sector contributes in job generation, you are wrong sir. Jobs can be provided in the vehicle service sector as well. These old cars need more maintenance and more spare parts. The used car market also provides jobs. Government can regularize the used car market to generate more revenues. But unfortunately the used car market is at the risk of death currently due to the policy of premature ban on vehicles.

Currently we rely on other countries for any kind of technology required to manufacture anything cars. Many of car components are imported from various countries. We are nowhere in the international tyre scene despite being third largest rubber producing country and having so many local tyre manufacturers. Why? Because our tyre manufacturers just copy others, they failed to develop anything locally due to lack of appropriate R&D. And motosport culture is key factor in vehicle related R&D which has always been overlooked here. Where are we in motosport?

We could have had more motosport parks, more R&D facilities, more vehicle component startups. Currently we import EV batteries, whereas if we have had our own battery facilities by now then they would have lead into export and more revenue generation for the govt.

We could become a vehicle export hub if we would have paid attention on developing the culture of providing quality. That can only happen by rigorous R&D, and nothing is better than inhouse motosport when it comes about vehicle related R&D. Even we could have developed environment friendly car engines suitable for our conditions by now. But ironically our largest car manufacturer Maruti has sourced many of it’s engines from other countries in all these years.

But no, why waste resources on motosport and R&D for creating anything new? Use the pollution as opportunity to ban the perfectly running cars to ramp up the production of inferior and unsafe cars to generate revenues, or sell the sugar cane waste in the name of ethanol as a legal adulteration in the fuel, thats it.

Ramp up consumption, ramp up industrialization, ramp up construction, only look for short term gains and keep overlooking the harm to the environment. No need for anything long term for the nation building.

[Hayek]

The fact is climatic conditions influence AQI as well. India, especially North India, has always been dusty - dating back to at least the Babarnama where Babar refers to the “wind laden with dust and earth which darkens the sky”. So even if there was no stubble burning and no industry and no cars, the North Indian plains would have unhealthy AQI. Of course it becomes far worse when farmers burn stubble, builders don’t use even basic dust mitigation techniques, and we have polluting diesel cars which are not fit for presence in any urban centre. The fact is that even in Bombay which is blessed with the ocean breeze, AQI is terrible - largely due to construction dust. Think a complete ban on diesel cars in North India is called for.

[Insuman]

Lower AQI in Bengaluru would be due to better tree cover compared to Delhi, although fast reducing and we will see it becoming like Mumbai very fast due to construction and loosing green cover. We can see the signs- roads. Garbage, low rains, depleted water table etc. Unless we learn from Bombay and Delhi, we will be worse off.

[dust-n-bones]

Originally Posted by tbppjpr

Bangalore - One of the worst Indian city in terms of traffic, roads always stay jam packed. Still AQI stays around 50 despite no ban on any type of vehicles compared to gas chamber Delhi which has phased out so many cars from it's roads in last few years by imposing ban on them.

Why such big difference in AQI of these two metro cities? Only cars are responsible?

It is hard to compare Bangalore to Delhi. Delhi sits in the middle of the north indian dust-bowl, and is also the center of the largest constellation of industries, urban clusters and thermal power producers in the country. Bangalore has congestion, but the scale of the Delhi road network, vehicle density and usage is incomparable. That makes Delhi air hazardous any time of the year.
Add to that the annual 'atmospheric lid' effect and increased space heating requirement with the onset of winter, and you get what you see.


Delhi is the favourite child of the Indian government. While cities like Mumbai and Bangalore and NCR (Sonipat, Panipat, Alwar, Sohna etc) were left to rot, Delhi has always been showered with the best infrastructure, the best education, healthcare.
And the road network. Every major highway is Delhi centric. The result is that whether you need a job, setup an auto anciliary, or want to go from Mumbai to Leh, Delhi is the self styled center of the earth.

Of course, the reason is that every self-important politician, babu, lawyer, judge and media center calls Delhi their home. Their self-centered life reflects in how North India is structured.

The Supreme Court of the land is recently finger wagging and aghast at construction dust in their backyard.

Alas, our worthies fail to understand that their ad-hoc, self-centered decision making has reached its limit. Pushing polluting industry out of sight from Delhi, as an example, doesn't solve the problem. It just means the same untreated pollutant is now discharged one hour upstream. Just as short-sighted is ensuring Delhi gets cheap power from 11 nearby thermal power stations, and hoping the particulate pollution will politely stay sealed outside its borders.

So now that the spoilt child is forced to live inside a gas chamber, even if for 3 months a year, its with a bit of irony that we realize that what goes around, finally comes around. Best of luck though advising a little bit of humility, a little more awareness of the limits of nature to our worthies.

Perhaps the maverick Tughlaq was right after all, the Indian capital should be moved to a non-descript place in Maharashtra . And let Delhi evolve at a pace more suited to its ecosystem.

[DigitalOne]

Originally Posted by Hayek

The fact is climatic conditions influence AQI as well. India, especially North India, has always been dusty - dating back to at least the Babarnama where Babar refers to the “wind laden with dust and earth which darkens the sky”.

Apparently, even Mohammed bin Tughlaq mentions it, and that's why he wanted to move his capital down south. This was referred in Shekhar Gupta's video (at minute 2:00) I had posted yesterday.

It is time to think bold and have a second NCR in central India in the vicinity where the borders of Telangana, MH, and Chhattisgarh intersect.

[iskandariya]

Just to further add, Subtle burning of farm fields is over, they have also planted next crop. It is not the only and main contributor especially all year round. Like the Video mentions it is a contributor for a week or two max.

Also, nor are vehicles well maintained vehicles irrespective of age don't pollute.

Also, it has been ongoing pre independence Era, and farm land has only reduced since then.

Side note good insights shared by members above.

[kushagra452]

Originally Posted by iskandariya

Just to further add, Subtle burning of farm fields is over, they have also planted next crop.

Just yesterday I read a report highlighting the 1251 farm fires in Punjab. This figure has been cited as the season's highest (and the highest in the past 3 years!). Sadly, no political party is interested in tackling this menace.

Usually stubble burning carries on till January. Citizens of North India can only hope and pray that the wind god intervenes and dissipates the noxious smoke.

[warrioraks]

Originally Posted by tbppjpr

The vehicular pollution is definitely a factory and going to remain similar, then be there a ban or no ban. But still its not as big a factor as the other two - industrial and construction pollution. The second most blamed element is stubble burning which affects only few days compared to the sustained pollution caused by the industries and construction.

Thanks for sharing the report. The graph below from your post is very interesting. More than half the pollution is coming from 'NCR districts' and 'Others' category. Couple of things that don't seem right:
1. I am struggling to understand what was the need to classify NCR districts as a separate item? Maybe they want to emphasize the pollution is coming from outside Delhi but when things like NGT rules and GRAP implementation is at an NCR level, why differentiate between Delhi and non-Delhi NCR cities.
2. The 'Others' category needs more explanation. You cannot have one of the highest consistent contributors on the graph classified in such an ambiguous way. How is someone supposed to act and address problems with such miscellaneous entries?

Except for telling us that stubble burning is a non-issue this issue and vehicle bans are logical, found this report to be superficial. The publishing authority needs to do a better job next time. I have a conspiracy theory on why this report was published but will leave it here for now.

The bottom-line is that no one in the government really knows what's happening and how to solve this issue.

[mayukh42]

Today's AQI map of India:



Of course, the values keep on changing, but at any given instant, the map can be used to study the pattern. And there is a natural pattern of wind flow, originating from desert areas north-west of India, flowing east, trapping Delhi and flowing through the Gangetic Plain all the way to Kolkata. Similar "freeway" of the wind can also be seen in the Indus Valley.

This is a natural problem, aggravated by the other reasons like stubble burning and construction. But these man-made issues are secondary. Even if we completely solve them, the physical geography of the region does not change.

One point made by a BHPian was reduction of the height of Aravalli Range - this can definitely be the reason for Delhi, but then if the height was higher, it would trap Punjab even longer.

Another point was change in crop cycle, which can reduce stubble burning, but again the wind pattern will remain, and with reduced green cover and taller buildings south of Delhi, the PM2.5 will again get trapped.

The only effective solution is to distribute population across the country and create green covers. This comes automatically with reduced density of construction dust and vehicles, more green cover, reduced depletion of ground water. Instead of expanding the cities, create new cities. And with each city, create equivalent green covers.

Maybe a new capital in central India. Maybe a couple of designated National Parks between Punjab and Delhi, and also some along the border. And complement with artificial rain if possible.

However, all of these will severely affect land prices in which the powerful have a lot of stake. So the studies will remain just that, and the issue will never be solved.

If you can, move to a second tier city. The future is not bright for any metro of the country (AQI is just one part - real issue is piggy-backing on existing infra that is easier to do but costlier in the long run).

[Sanidhya mukund]

Originally Posted by Mystic

Do you operate these purifiers on other months also? Is this smog worst this year or it is like any other year?

It is just a matter of time before we also experience this in other cities in India.

It looks like our Government take certain actions every year in winter and all forget it quickly in later months. This reminds me of the following quote:

“Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"

We have to operate them only during winters, especially November, December and January. The time after Diwali is especially bad.

Originally Posted by rajathv8

Having used an air purifier in BLR, I am appalled that the numbers are showing 750 indoors.
Is this with the room door closed? Are your filters clogged?
At this rate you may need to consolidate two purifiers into a room. Take care!

Yes, this is when the outdoor facing windows are shut and the door to access is opened and closed based upon entry/exit as would normally be the case.

The filters are reasonably new and have been cleaned quite recently. I must add, last time when the filters were taken out for cleaning, they were a sight to behold.

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Feels like dystopia. I called my parents right away after reading your post and ordered an air purifier for them. We should not have to spend thousands to be able to breathe clean air. I dont even know what to say at this point.

Exactly! Unfortunately, for us Delhiites, air purifiers are becoming as much of a regular appliance as a TV, fridge or AC.

[JediKnight]

So sad to read all of this. In my child hood growing up in a hill station I remember my mom chiding us to open the windows to let in some fresh air. It is the opposite now in Delhi.

I remember watching a cartoon some years back where people get air cylinders just like LPG cylinders every month to breathe since outside air is so polluted. Looks like we are heading that way.

Apologies for the mid afternoon rant.

[Thyag]

We are in a flawed democracy, where the common man doesn't have voice anymore - if they have concrete evidence they should have banned the vehicles all over the country

[samitjain]

Where there is a will there is a way. But politicians don’t have the courage to go against the vote bank.

Who wants to confront farmers. Singhu Border still closed, we have seen the farmers sit in at north Delhi border.

What G20 did to Delhi was amazing for few days because there was a will to do it.

Unless Supreme Court takes some coercive action, nothing will improve.

[AJ56]

Originally Posted by Sanidhya mukund

As the owner of cars that have already been banished by the NGT, I would be the last one to support such measures, but yesterday, a saying came to my mind: “desperate times call for desperate measures.”

We have Eureka Forbes air purifiers in every room of our house. Yesterday, all of them were struggling to display a number below 750, despite running constantly for hours.

Your purifier either has clogged filters (can happen prematurely as well, too many variables) or is insufficient for the room size, check the rated room size it’s meant for.

I live in Gurgaon with similar air as Delhi, and like you have stuck purifiers everywhere and after around 30 mins for smaller rooms, they reduce the PM 2.5 levels from 300 to 10-30, sometimes even dropping to 1.

Regarding the BS4 diesel ban, I agree desperate times call for stronger mitigation measures, but I’ll only support it after the authorities have gone after all the bigger contributors to pollution from crop burning to mining and construction.

Haphazardly targeting civilians who have no power lobbies to back them is acutely unfair I find.