[DigitalOne]

Originally Posted by am1m

But why someone with more than a decade of experience would commit fraud like this is beyond me!

You think that is bad? Then read this:

Apple sacks Indian-origin staff over 'misuse' of charity donation programme

The modus operandi goes like this - Indian origin employees (specifically of a particular Indian state mentioned in the article) 'donate' to a "charity", which is closely associated with Indians of that state. Apple as part of CSR matches the grant and donates to the same "charity". The "charity" funnels the money back to the Apple employee.

These are tech employees living in the US and working in one of the top tech companies of world. I was speechless after reading this.

Source

[PreludeSH]

Originally Posted by am1m

Heard about some employees getting fired for submitting fake house rent receipts. Apparently the IT department is sending out notices to the companies directly. What is wrong with these employees?! Some of them are not junior, pretty senior. How much would they really gain by doing this? Why risk a considerably bigger amount of money in terms of salary and job loss for something like this?!

I remember as junior employees we'd scramble like mad to 'save tax', and end up making idiotic investments like ULIPS, and other stupid things that in the end, inevitably ended up costing us more than just paying the tax amount. But why someone with more than a decade of experience would commit fraud like this is beyond me!

This is very widespread. Not just fake house rents, there was/is a big setup for car and driver rentals. I remember one of my friend telling me about 10 years ago that the car and driver information is provided to employee by a middleman known to admin/finance dept of the company. Everyone gets a small cut in the tax savings.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by PreludeSH

This is very widespread. Not just fake house rents,...

True, true, I do know that none of this is new, the same things were going on when I started working 2 decades ago. But with the rise in salaries, awareness, the knowledge that the government is getting serious about closing these tax loopholes, why are some of us employees still being so damn stupid?! And with fake house rent receipts, how much does a senior employee, already earning a good amount, really stand to gain relative to their salary? That's what I can't wrap my head around. Just plain greed and stupidity.

[JediKnight]

Originally Posted by kiku007

Good luck finding India's ranking in the below.

This chart has nothing to do with productivity. It is conflating high GPD per capita with productivity. Classic case of misuse of statistics . For example the top two nations on the list are tax heavens hence their GDP numbers are bloated and fake. Also you see tiny European boutique states high on the list. This principally on account of their small populations and very high natural resources. For example, Norway has a sovereign wealth fund which has a value of 1.8 Trillion USD ( as of Dec 2024 ) for country with a population of only 55.2 Lakh. This fund is created from oil and gas money, ironically for a country which virtue signals the world on carbon emissions.

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by JediKnight

This chart has nothing to do with productivity. It is conflating high GPD per capita with productivity. Classic case of misuse of statistics . For example the top two nations on the list are tax heavens hence their GDP numbers are bloated and fake. Also you see tiny European boutique states high on the list. This principally on account of their small populations and very high natural resources. For example, Norway has a sovereign wealth fund which has a value of 1.8 Trillion USD ( as of Dec 2024 ) for country with a population of only 55.2 Lakh. This fund is created from oil and gas money, ironically for a country which virtue signals the world on carbon emissions.

Could you please educate the International Labour Organisation (ILO) and fellow readers on how to calculate Labour Productivity (LP), including the below,

• the factors/values that should be used
• the formula
• India's ranking as per your LP calculation

It is easy to disprove or discredit others data with some blanket statements. However, it is pretty much worthless if you aren't providing proof to support your alternate thesis.

Micro nations such as Luxembourg and Monaco are exceptions of course. You can exclude such states and make the comparison and the picture isn't any rosier.

The bottom line is that this is the data. People and governments can look at it to see how to improve LP, or sit and pick holes at how Norway and its people became rich. Norway has finite fossil fuels. India has more than a billion of rich human capital. India is exporting this human capital to other countries to increase the LP of the destination countries. That's something worth pondering.

P.S: Here's the link to ILO,https://ilostat.ilo.org/topics/labour-productivity/

Labour productivity is an important economic indicator that is closely linked to economic growth, competitiveness, and living standards within an economy. Labour productivity represents the total volume of output (measured in terms of Gross Domestic Product, GDP) produced per unit of labour (measured in terms of the number of employed persons or hours worked) during a given time reference period. The indicator allows data users to assess GDP-to-labour input levels and growth rates over time, thus providing general information about the efficiency and quality of human capital in the production process for a given economic and social context, including other complementary inputs and innovations used in production.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by JediKnight

This chart has nothing to do with productivity. It is conflating high GPD per capita with productivity. Classic case of misuse of statistics . For example the top two nations on the list are tax heavens hence their GDP numbers are bloated and fake. Also you see tiny European boutique states high on the list. This principally on account of their small populations and very high natural resources. For example, Norway has a sovereign wealth fund which has a value of 1.8 Trillion USD ( as of Dec 2024 ) for country with a population of only 55.2 Lakh. This fund is created from oil and gas money, ironically for a country which virtue signals the world on carbon emissions.

Tax heaven is a very broad term. Switzerland is often regarded as a tax heaven, but that is primarily in relation of banks that retain large fortune without disclosure to other nations (I.e. Tax dodging / tax evasion).
That does not affect GDP or productivity.

Ireland has long attracted investors with relative low corporate tax and some incentives. Every country can do so, it is not fake. It worked to a point for Ireland as it attracted a lot of business that created value and thus added to GDP.

Norway GDP is only 20% oil/gas related. So even discounting for that it will still find itself in the top of this chart.

Not sure why you think those small nations have such high natural, resources. They don't. They certainly have a whole lot less than Norway do the impact of any such natural resources on GDP is limited. In some western European countries they have natural resources, but are using it less and less due to the energy transition or other reason. Both the Netherlands and Germany have still large gas reserves, but are not using them anymore. The gasfield in Northern Netherlands has been shut down completely. When it was discovered it was the largest gas field in Europe and it is far from empty. But if you are not producing oil and or gas, it wont contribute to the GDP.

Time to brush up on your insight into GDP and what business (added value) is in each country respective GDP. For instance take the Netherlands, almost 70% of its GDP comes from the service industry. And less than 2% from agricultural activities. Whereas Dutch farmers are the second largest agricultural producers in the world, right after the American farmers.

Jeroen

[Small Bot]

Originally Posted by am1m

What is wrong with these employees?! Some of them are not junior, pretty senior. How much would they really gain by doing this? Why risk a considerably bigger amount of money in terms of salary and job loss for something like this?!

In my previous organisation, an MNC Bank, I recall issuing a letter of summary dismissal for an HR colleague who had falsified a fuel receipt for claiming (flexi benefits claim). He was tossed out of job where he was earning upwards of 30 lakhs a year, over a falsified petrol bill of some 2500₹.

It might seem like overkill to some, but HR policies are quite black and white on this. In what is deemed as an ethics/integrity violation (attempted fraud), there's very little leeway for anything other than a summary dismissal.

My point is, you'd be surprised at the number and frequency of stupid things people do to end their careers.

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by kiku007

But having an enviable career is one thing, and being a happy person is another."

Remove the following from 40-60 year old men and give them 6 months to do whatever they want.

• Job
• Mobile phone
• Computer
• TV
• School going children to boss around.

No one ever wished on their deathbed that they had worked more. That is so telling.

If you take away those things from me, I will get on my bicycle and go cross country. And probably never return. Ah, the dream.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by Small Bot

It might seem like overkill to some, but HR policies are quite black and white on this. In what is deemed as an ethics/integrity violation (attempted fraud), there's very little leeway for anything other than a summary dismissal.

I'm quite glad this is the case. It makes a huge difference when a company sticks to their guns in such cases. I recall an instance at a previous job where our India head was fired because he had made an inappropriate suggestion to an intern. His boss just flew in from the head office, fired the jerk on the spot, we saw him walk out of the building. Sends a good message. I later saw that he'd secured another senior role in another company in a different city, so, unfortunately no long-term impact. But it's good that some companies empower HR to take action in such cases.

[searacer932]

I wonder what people will say now about the response from Perplexity Co-Founder. People keep complaining why India is not at the forefront of products development and the Indian industry is largely a service industry. If people do a deep self-introspection they will get the answer which is right in front of them.

Are Indian IT folks ready to follow 996 working model to develop products? If not, then at least please let us not complain as to why we don't have an equivalent of Chat GPT or DeepSeek . I am pretty sure DeepSeek folks did not follow 40 hours/week working model to develop their product!

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by searacer932

I am pretty sure DeepSeek folks did not follow 40 hours/week working model to develop their product!

That is true, but most people in India are not doing such creative work. Why expect them to work 996 then?

Infosys or L&T are doing highly predictable work, whose effort can be fully estimated in time and money, well in advance. Therefore, they can allocate work by 40h/week and assign enough people to achieve deadlines.

However, if you are doing product engineering, it has too many unknowns, including the chances of success. Companies like Infosys or L&T don't even take up projects that have low chances of success.

[hondatoyotafan]

Originally Posted by kiku007

I don't want to do household work!
There's another portion of men who use "office work" as an excuse/free-pass to get away from household work or family responsibilities.

This wont fly anymore , all the boomers talking about 70/90/120 hours have married trad-wives who would look after the house when boomer saab would be discussing politics over tea with his buddies. These days wives expect equal or if not greater participation in household work from husbands as they too are working. These days wives even go out for girl-picnics leaving the kids and household to the husband.

[dass]

Originally Posted by am1m

Heard about some employees getting fired for submitting fake house rent receipts.

Not just fake rent receipts, even fake medical bills are part of this. A lot of medical shops just issue bills for 'tax' purposes in return for a portion of the money. The other reason for fake rent receipts is probably due to the landlords refusal to part with their PAN cards, which is required if the rental is more than a certain threshold.

[NomadSK]

Originally Posted by Samurai

That is true, but most people in India are not doing such creative work. Why expect them to work 996 then?

+1, I had watched a Sabeer Bhatia podcast sometime back and he has beautifully put, when a bloke in US has a vision to do something, they think of future and how it can serve the humanity, while in India when someone has a vision, they think of how much "money" they can churn out of it. Unfortunately that's the stark difference and starting on a wrong foot for achieving any greatness.

Originally Posted by dass

Not just fake rent receipts, even fake medical bills are part of this. A lot of medical shops just issue bills for 'tax' purposes in return for a portion of the money. The other reason for fake rent receipts is probably due to the landlords refusal to part with their PAN cards, which is required if the rental is more than a certain threshold.

Don't you think, the system is to be blamed for this mess, when you can have such loopholes which people might exploit rather than pointing a finger towards an individual. I remember when I was working in India, by the end of the financial year we used to run like headless chicken looking for fake transportation receipts/medical bills/rental payments for tax savings, everyone did this with a bunch of fake receipts and was considered as a norm with no questions being asked. An open system with no closure loop will always tend to be exploited by someone or the other.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by searacer932

I am pretty sure DeepSeek folks did not follow 40 hours/week working model to develop their product!

Who can say, till they come out with statements themselves. But for people really looking to understand what made them tick, there are a lot of interesting articles coming up where the actual people involved have spoken about the process. They seem to have managed to leverage some top researchers from academia, and credit that to their success.

https://www.technologyreview.com/202...ite-sanctions/
https://tribune.com.pk/story/2525077...ehind-deepseek

Originally Posted by hondatoyotafan

...all the boomers talking about 70/90/120 hours have married trad-wives who would look after the house when boomer saab would be...

Arrey, that is what a 'traditional bahu' is supposed to do na? Put her career on hold while the big guy works x hours and makes other people work. For the 'glory of the nation', of course.

But like you said, no chance this will fly today. Actually, I'd encourage everyone to make sure their spouse does work. When the 'wealth creators' do layoff people (and at least in IT it happens all the time), another working partner is the best way to minimize the risk of financial fallout. Thanks to my wife's considerably more successful career, I am in a position to tell any manager who comes up with 'x hour' proposals, where to keep their proposals. (Though I've almost always had awesome immediate managers, who probably shielded me from such ideas from 'above'.)