[Bhuvan]

All this is the result of trying to be politically correct. Many of us would love to settle in any developed country just for the dignity of life that comes with it. Easy way is higher education opportunity, which helps to live a decent life and contribute through taxes.
Acting like conservator of human rights and leader of world order, countries like UK, Canada and many more opened their borders for asylum seekers. As predicted by UAE FM Sheikh Abdullah bin Zayed in 2017, chickens have come home to roost. Canada's ignorance is a case study for whole world.

Note: This post is not against any individual, country or religion.

[hondadriver]

The current restrictions on India from western countries is very much rooted in cold economic reality.

1) The west needs to protect its way of living. So they need to import labor for specific categories of jobs (tradesmen and lower).
2) The west needs to protect its way of living. So they need to "restrict" labor for specific categories of jobs (doctors, software engineers etc.).

India's mix of people skews highly towards the 2nd categogry.

Whereas, the typical European migrant (from Middle East and Africa) and US migrant (from Mexico) mix skews towards the 1st category.

So they want Indians to pay for their exorbitant college education but not displace them in college jobs.

It does work well for an emerging economy like India though. People can get educated on western ways, and contribute to India by working here. For example, if US visa policy hadn't turned too restrictive towards Indian's H1Bs and Green Cards, post 2001, you would not have the tech ecosystem today.

[Janus]

Originally Posted by Earthroamer

I respect any country's decision to protect its borders, culture, economy etc by restricting immigration. The unchecked immigration has ruined many quaint places, especially in UK, that I know of, which sometimes makes you wonder, whether you are really in UK.

There's nothing wrong with immigrants holding to their culture/values, however, its utmost important that immigrants should adapt to host country's culture and values first and assimilate properly. If the immigrant lot cannot do that and ghettoise themselves, the cultural clashes, racism and discrimination will pop from it.

I cringe whenever I read politically charged marketing lines like, "melting pot of cultures". I want Germany to be Germany, UK to be UK, China to be China, India to be India. That's what makes geography and tourism best.

Said rightly.

Immigration is like an overflowing pot of water, pot represents the country, tap water represents the new births and the overflow represents the deaths.

New people coming in to the country is like adding drops of potassium permanganate to the pot, if its added too much then the water turns pink representing the culture change.

But if its added at the right amount then, with the water filling up compensates the drops representing new people to assimilate properly.

[ex-innova-guy]

Originally Posted by androdev

Quality higher education is one of the most unmet needs in India, a primary driver for immigration.

Indian govt should take this opportunity to facilitate reputed foreign universities to open campuses in India.

Talk about timing!

The UK's University of Southampton has become the first foreign university to set up its offshore campus in Gurgaon, India as part of University Grants Commission (UGC) regulations under the new National Education Policy 2020.

Ranked among the top 100 higher educational institutions globally, the university will set up its campus in Gurgaon and the first academic session is likely to start in July. The degrees awarded by the India campus of the University of Southampton will be the same as in the host university.

UGC chairman Jagadesh Kumar said the university will offer courses in subjects focusing on business and management, computing, law, engineering, art and design, biosciences and life sciences.

In 2023, UGC had announced 'Setting up and Operation of Campuses of Foreign Higher Educational Institutions in India Regulations' under NE. "This will be the first foreign university to be issued 'letter of intent' under UGC regulations for setting up of Indian campuses of foreign universities," the education ministry said. External affairs minister S Jaishankar handed over the 'letter of intent' to university representatives at an event here.

Source

Originally Posted by androdev

I don't know the policy restrictions related to foreign universities opening campus in India but it's a move that's long overdue.

UGC Released Regulations Permitting Foreign Higher Educational Institutions(FHEI) to Establish Campuses in India last year.

1. Eligibility: The FHEI Regulations requires the applicant foreign higher education institution (“FHEI”) intending to establish campus in India to either have secured a position within the top 500 in the overall category of global rankings, as decided by the UGC from time to time, or should have secured a position within the top 500 in the subject-wise category of global rankings or possess outstanding expertise in a particular area, as decided by UGC from time to time. Lack of guidelines or criteria as to what would constitute as an outstanding expertise in a particular area allows UGC wide discretionary powers.
...

You can read more here.

UGC FHEI Official Website (Link)

[chinkara]

Like GTO, I also came back with a H1B and a pathway to green card. And I also agree that people staying in India will improve quality of Indian education in the long run.

But, the problem is, if there is a limitation in the number of visas, chances are that toppers of good colleges who apply and get into ivy league colleges will get through anyway. And the number of people who move on education visas primarily because they are unable to get into an equivalent institute in India / to settle abroad - they would be the most impacted. And this will cause some strife in India as there would be more competition for resources.

But their country, their rules. We have to accept that.

[Jeroen]

The worse thing about these restriction is that it driven by fear of illegals entering a country. Yes, there are illegals entering a most countries.

However in western countries the illegal stream of immigrants tend to be around 10% of the total number of immigrants.

By far the largest stream of immigrants is those coming to (legally) work and or study!

So immigrations is about the economy and jobs availability. Most western countries have a very low level of unemployment and substantial labour shortages.

In my home country you will find many immigrants working at farms, logistical centres and so on. Jobs that require little specific knowledge.

Ironically enough, the political party in my country making the most noise about restricting immigrants is also the ones whose members provide the most low level jobs to immigrants (farming). Of course, they don’t want anybody to restrict their cheap labour, but all other immigrants must be stopped!

Immigration control needs to be seen as a function of economy and what kind a society you want to have. E.g. in our case do we want farms with a high impact on the environment, land scape that only provides simple jobs? Same for all these logic centre and I could name some others too?

Do you want to have an academic system that provides university education to more immigrants than to local people?

I believe those are fair questions to ask and worth a debate. Because it’s those kind of factors that attract immigrants.

Just stopping the number of immigrants by not providing visas is a stupid thing to do. Because you could be actually hurting the economy or certain sectors. Looked what happened with doctors and nurses in the UK after Brexit!

So for all intents and purposes, it is an economic and a social choice about the sort of country you want to have. What kind of industries, what kind of jobs and so on.

Unfortunately, this visa thing is driven by politicians who want to be seen doing something about immigrants. The easiest and quickest way about it is to restrict entry by means of restricting visa

It wil have zero impact on illegal immigrants of course, which is the real gripe of these zealots!

As always the real issue is much more complex than these zealots will make you believe.

Just restricting visa’s with no policy about what kind of labour market you want to have, or how you want to see your academic system work is pointless and is likely to backfire

Jeroen

[drmohitg]

This is not going to change anytime soon. There is a nationalistic wave spreading across the western world, led by inflation and rising prices. The majority of this is their own doing, starting or participating in conflicts far away from their mainland and the habit of playing god. And humans never want to admit the truth. So the easy way to vent all that frustration is to blame it on migrants.

There is also the fact that resources are limited and many of these countries, such as the UK, are welfare states and offer a variety of support measures such a free healthcare and education, housing, allowances etc. Migrants, especially those on student visas, do exploit this route and bring along a large number of dependents on that single student visa which then puts a burden on these resources.

[DevendraG]

Does abroad provide better opportunities, lifestyle- Yes

Do we provide a great market for other countries to invest, build brands and business opportunities - Yes

It’s a mutually beneficial situation in reality. Even though the countries abroad would make immigrants feel that they’re stealing their jobs, over populating their tourist destinations, destroying their culture etc.

I voted Yes if we reciprocate with our own restrictions in the right directions.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by drmohitg

There is also the fact that resources are limited and many of these countries, such as the UK, are welfare states and offer a variety of support measures such a free healthcare and education, housing, allowances etc. Migrants, especially those on student visas, do explit this route and bring along a large number of dependents on that single student visa which then puts a burden on these resources.

That is what the right wing lot wants you to believe.

Immigrants are a financial drain on the system. In reality it is much more subtle. Because all of these people are part of society. When they work(which by far majority does, see my earlier post) they pay taxes, they pay social welfare, they pay pension schemes. The money they spend goes back into society just as everybody’s money does. Towards taxes (eg VAT) companies and so on.

There is no case to be made that immigrants, illegal or legal, are a financial drain on society as such. In many cases they contributed positively as most of the local population does too.

I can recommend this book, which debunks most myth concerning immigration from both the right and left wing politicians in Europe.

[drmohitg]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

There is no case to be made that immigrants, illegal or legal, are a financial drain on society as such. In many cases they contributed positively as most of the local population does too.

I wrote based on my experience in the UK so far (3.5 years). There are active no go areas, I openly see migrants loitering, driving habits similar to Asia, strongly encouraging cash economy. There are shops that have an open display board saying only cash accepted. How are they contributing to the taxation?

To give you an example: I have a lady who comes to clean. She takes cash, both kids enjoy government school, has a council house. Husband is a taxi driver and I am sure there is no transparency there either.

To be fair, the behaviour is same if you see low income whites. Migrants just stand out as they are easy to identify and bigger proportion is in that low income group.

And yes, Skilled migrant population is heavily paying taxes and visa fee every year. Infact, Sunak shamelessly declared last year that they are increasing visa costs and immigrant health surcharge fee to boost the economy.

[v1p3r]

Most of these middling white countries - EU, UK, Canada, Australia - keep whining about immigration. They don't have enough people to work, they are running out of growth capital because their domestic markets shrink and they can't compete with China / Asia, and they hang on to some grandiose sense of self-importance based on their rapacious colonial history. Even their short term visa processes smack of racism. They'll wake up soon enough when their idiot AryaNazi population realises they need Indian tourists to sustain themselves, just like the Maldives.

The only countries which seem to actually manage immigration well are the US and the UAE. The US, despite all its scaremongering during elections, has a pretty solid system and a reasonable visa regime as well. The UAE learnt from its past mistakes - GFC and mass exodus - and now actively courts U/HNWI and professional immigrants, making entry easier every quarter.

The truth is immigration at all distances is a net positive. It enriches people and locations financially and culturally. It's no coincidence that some of the great cities of the world - London, New York, Rome - are the onetime cultural or administrative capitals of superpowers, drawing in people and practices from across their empires. Similarly, megacities like Mumbai, Hong Kong, Dubai all make their reputation on national or global immigrants. And let's not forget, the $ 125 bn that India got last year from immigrant remitances is second only to IT exports of $ 195 bn. Without this our economy would be a basket case.

Originally Posted by GTO

As an extremely patriotic personality, I am very happy with these developments. Brain drain is not good for any country, and if the talented people stay here, it helps India in the long run. I put my money where my mouth is = I also returned to India when I had good opportunities (careerwise) in the USA.

But you returned only when / because you had good opportunities. Many emigrants from India - especially those in Canada and Australia - are leaving zero-opportunity zero-growth areas like Punjab. They can't move anywhere else in India because they are either not qualified or their income is already well above the national average. People always vote with their feet.

Hilarious to see people referencing the UK riots while sitting in India. Riots by local white unemployed skinheads are somehow the fault of immigrants.
The others seem supporting tougher immigration laws after they've immigrated themselves. Such Suella, very Priti.

Having live in the UK for the better part of 2 decades, their entire situation is the result of Tory rule and Brexit, which is basically their own stupidity. Like Pakistan but with more money and more self importance.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

Most of these middling white countries - EU, UK, Canada, Australia - keep whining about immigration.

You are right but there are some nuances for each country, for Canada and to a lesser extent Australia, immigration was considered as a silver bullet that would provide unlimited economic growth forever. At some point, Canada overdid it and keep bringing in immigrants while doing nothing else to stimulate the market and provide jobs & homes for these immigrants. Unfortunately, while immigrants help in stimulating growth, it’s one among a multitude of factors, so without these factors, there was no point bringing in highly skilled workers with nowhere to work or live at. So, we have idiosyncrasies like apartments in Toronto being more expensive than New York City. Part of the problem is the US itself which actually has the right conditions to generate growth using highly skilled immigration, but their Chola-era immigration system forces three in four Indian students to leave the US - many of whom left for Canada causing a huge loss of valuable human capital, many of which were funded by American scholarships. Australia never went as overboard as Canada and famously never had a recession for decades but that’s what happens when you are sitting on tonnes of Coal, Lithium and Copper.

The UK predicament is just as you described but worse! They are trying to cut legal immigration and numbers of foreign students who bring in billions of dollars into your economy and potentially even more if they work there. The Tory rule of the past decade is an 101 on how to destroy a high-tech economy with a capital that’s the envy of the world in terms of its global reach. I doubt any world power has become irrelevant as quickly as the Brits, I wouldn’t be surprised if the UK becomes an free trading outpost for Indian businesses in 2-3 decades just like Dubai or Singapore because let’s be honest, London is like the third stop of a Rajdhani train route at this point (first two being Dubai and Singapore respectively).

Don’t even get me started on the EU. The Dutch, Swedes and to some extent the Germans have a relatively good system to attract talents but other countries have strange systems. In Belgium for example (where I did my masters), students couldn’t even get an extension to look for a job after graduating like literally every other Western country, and ironically our tuition was heavily subsidised unlike say the Netherlands. So, the Belgian government was spending €14,000 per foreign student or even more if they have a scholarship, only to force them to leave throwing their tax payer money down the drain, though I believe they did fix this system. Denmark makes it really hard to get even a PR, same with the Austria and the Swiss though they do seem to have better quality of immigrants than the rest - more integrated. Lots of opportunities in Poland but they are racist even toward Spaniards The EU really makes up for all this with their old world charm though, someone really has to check if there are black holes near Europe and South America because time flows slower there than the rest of the world (in a good way).

There’s generally less in your face racism in the EU, you generally won’t have people telling you to go back to your country (atleast from an Indian perspective) but there’s always an opportunity drag when it comes to more senior positions. It’s hard to imagine an Indian-born person becoming a CEO of a EU based corporation or even the Dean of a faculty in a university though you’ll still be able to work in middle management without prejudice. This might also be because of other factors - the Indian community is much more strong in Anglo countries - there were more Indians in the UK than the whole of the EU put together around 5 years ago, the language and also more historical links and roots.

The UAE has a nice system to attract expats (not immigrants) but there’s always a feeling that the rules are decided based on which side of the bed a very important person woke up that morning, not ideal for stability. The Gulf countries in general, these things work like a switch, really drives you crazy sometimes.

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

You are right but there are some nuances for each country

Thank you, my kind and learned friend. Having survived matrimony for the better part of a decade, being right is now an alien feeling to me.

You are, of course, spot on in your assessment of US, CA, UK, AU, AE. I have reasonable experience - either living, doing business, or having close relatives - in each of these, and your post is like a shorthand guide to the idiocies of each country. I have no deep experience with the EU, but wouldn't find what you're saying unbelievable in the slightest.

[V.Narayan]

Climate change, immigration, water and de-dollarization of world trade will be the big issues of the 21st century. The slowing down of population growth or negative growth in some parts of the world, the slowing down & ageing of the massive Chinese and Indian populations over the next 30 years, the continued growth of African population are all going to be major factors in immigration. In 2099 it is very possible that we will be discussing the pros and cons of Africans migrating to India to fill the skill gap. A lot can happen in 75 years.

The double whammy impact of a declining and ageing population is not fully understood as yet at multiple levels - economy, culture, survival instincts kicking in, loss of morale, robotization, etc. Italy and Japan will show the way. In the end I am sure human ingenuity will solve these issues over 2 or 3 generations.

[chinkara]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

You are right but there are some nuances for each country, for Canada and to a lesser extent Australia, immigration was considered as a silver bullet that would provide unlimited economic growth forever. At some point, Canada overdid it and keep bringing in immigrants while doing nothing else to stimulate the market and provide jobs & homes for these immigrants. Unfortunately, while immigrants help in stimulating growth, it’s one among a multitude of factors, so without these factors, there was no point bringing in highly skilled workers with nowhere to work or live at. So, we have idiosyncrasies like apartments in Toronto being more expensive than New York City. Part of the problem is the US itself which actually has the right conditions to generate growth using highly skilled immigration, but their Chola-era immigration system forces three in four Indian students to leave the US - many of whom left for Canada causing a huge loss of valuable human capital, many of which were funded by American scholarships...

I think the US system is quite robust - their academics are output driven, so if you are on a grant chances are you have taught or generated research output equivalent to your grant.


The issue with Canada, parts of UK and parts of EU (parts of France and Belgium that I know of) is the lack of assimilation. There are no-go areas which run on cash economy and bring the worst of the origin nations there. There will be a (racist) reaction to that, no matter how much we dislike it.

The other problem with immigrant ghettos is that they are often in a time warp. I have met Indian immigrants living in ghettos who have migrated in the 70s and retain what they think is "Indian Culture", a 70s mindset; where the country itself has moved on.

Yes, immigration helps in keeping an economy going with an ageing population, but that is contingent on assimilation. Assimilation can happen only if there is a limitation in numbers and an openness in the receiving country to accept and a change mindset in the immigrant.

At the end of the day, again, their country, their rules.