[hdus001]

It's also the size of some of the fancy breeds. Whilst good-natured if they've been trained well, when/if they snap, they can do a lot of damage compared to a small-sized dog.

I remember going on a nightly walk in Koramanga (Bangalore) many years back, and there was this girl walking an enormous dog. The dog was definitely not well trained, it was pulling at its leashes and she was almost falling over trying to keep it in check. If she let go, it'd likely have attacked me or someone else in the vicinity. I couldn't help thinking it was very irresponsible of her to take such an animal on a walk on a public street. Or perhaps chosen a smaller sized dog that she could control better or could inflict less damage if it went off leash.

One should be able to walk on a street without being afraid of being attacked by some "dog-lover"'s pet, or by territorial strays dogs. So many times I had to turn away from streets in that area when I spot a large gang of strays roaming that street, jumping at any 2 wheelers that pass by.

[Thad E Ginathom]

If one sees a very slight person, a child even, with a large dog on a lead, the question is: if that dog decides to go somewhere, could the human stop it? This is as true of a super-friendly dog as it is of a potentially dangerous one. The sweetest animal can dash across the street, or be scared by a loud noise.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

If one sees a very slight person, a child even, with a large dog on a lead, the question is: if that dog decides to go somewhere, could the human stop it? This is as true of a super-friendly dog as it is of a potentially dangerous one. The sweetest animal can dash across the street, or be scared by a loud noise.

The keyword here is responsibility. I have lived all my life in the company of German shepherd dogs and cats. when you adopt a pet, you enter into a life-long commitment - that you will be a responsible owner/parent for its lifetime. My animals have never, ever attacked anyone in all my life.

But I see dozens of people who buy expensive breeds and keep them in inhuman conditions.They consider these poor animals as little more than a status symbol. Before they start banning some dog breeds, they should add more 'bite' to the SPCA laws.

Now there is another side: How many individually owned pets have attacked people compared with stray dogs attacking people ? The latter will run into thousands. Some time back my son was bitten by a stray. He had to take RIG and 5 injections as a routine precaution. Many people seem to have misplaced ardor to feed the stray dogs and cats without taking responsibility to control them. The strays are proliferating everywhere - in the beaches, Promenades, Temples, Churches and streets.

As Harry Muller (renowned naturalist and a colleague of Romulus whitaker - founder of Madras Snake Farm) once commented - If see the Rabis section of GH once, you will kill off any stray dogs.

May be the Government should start with controlling the stray population before banning the 'foreign' breeds. Cull the strays in humane way.

[Fuldagap]

It baffles me how openly members here are opining about killing stray dogs.
It is illegal, unethical and immoral. Whatever their reasons are.

A gentlemen is disgusted of FIRs being used as a threat against them. If you are not in the wrong, why be afraid of an FIR threat.

I hope no strong animal activist sees this thread, lest the participants want action against them. Putting stuff on the social media is a responsibility of the person posting.

Selfishness and lack of realism, that's why the poor sentient beings suffer all around. The constitution provides them the right to life but the learned members haven't have the basic knowledge.

Mods should take note of the things being purported here. Even if a member feels he is above law, he isn't.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by Prowler

The keyword here is responsibility. I have lived all my life in the company of German shepherd dogs and cats. when you adopt a pet, you enter into a life-long commitment - that you will be a responsible owner/parent for its lifetime. My animals have never, ever attacked anyone in all my life.

I agree, but my example was intended to show that, however committed and responsible the human, however well-trained the animal, things can happen. And the consequences can be different according to breed.

Actually, I don't even think of German shepherd (Alsatian) dogs as a fierce breed! I know very well that they can be trained to be, of course, but their nature, in my experience, is not very fierce.

In the early years of my life, there were two. They were one-man dogs; they were devoted to my mother; they didn't care at all about me. That didn't mean aggression: it just meant that they didn't take much notice.

Originally Posted by Fuldagap

It baffles me how openly members here are opining about killing stray dogs.
It is illegal, unethical and immoral. Whatever their reasons are.

I agree with that too. Proper care and control is required. It is not (at least in many areas) being done.

Originally Posted by Prowler

May be the Government should start with controlling the stray population before banning the 'foreign' breeds. Cull the strays in humane way.

I can foresee situations in which proper management leads to an uncontrolled population growth which would have to be dealt with. Probably it has happened in some places. Probably will happen in others. I think the dog population here is fairly saturated.

I can only say I'd hate to see it. Another crime of humanity against our fellow creatures.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Prowler

As Harry Muller (renowned naturalist and a colleague of Romulus whitaker - founder of Madras Snake Farm) once commented - If see the Rabis section of GH once, you will kill off any stray dogs.

May be the Government should start with controlling the stray population ....Cull the strays in humane way.

Thank you @Prowler for saying it like it is. In USA for sure strays are taken off the streets and if they cannot find someone to adopt it then in a defined time the animal is put to sleep. We used to have that in India at least in the big cities. I recall the Municipal dog van coming to our colonies and catching strays to be put to sleep. Unfortunately, now due to Maneka Gandhi & some over vigorous activists and I dare say High Court Judges we are at a point where freedom of stray dogs take precedence over humans.

India has by some counts 62 million plus stray dogs. Other counts say 35 million. Either way these are huge numbers. Each is a potential rabies carrier. Each year millions of cows, goats, lambs, chickens, ducks & pigs are killed to feed humans. Never could grasp what is so special about stray dogs that animal activists wish to protect them at the expense of human children and old people.

Some more facts - according to CNN 6.8 million people in India were bitten by stray dogs in 2020. And it is believed this is a conservative number given that several cases in the rural areas might be going unreported. This clearly is not viewed as a problem by animal activists. The strays must be protected - ask those whose near and dear ones died of rabies.

Question to the readers -- Should India have a law that all strays are caught and put to sleep if they cannot be given for adoption.

[Gansan]

^^ During my school and college days (1965-1980) we had to buy a dog licence from the Municipality every year. It was a small tin badge which had to be secured to the neck strap of our dog. Dogs roaming around without the licence were periodically caught and kept in the pound. If one found his dog missing he will go straight to the Municipal pound, pay a fine, buy a licence and take the dog home. After a specific number of days the dogs remaining in the pound were put to sleep.

I don't know why the practice was abandoned down the years. Especially after the animal right "activists" took over the cause of stray dogs and enacted laws for them. The practice should be resumed. There is no point in catching them, neutering and releasing in the same neighborhood after an anti rabies shot. Anti rabies is not a one time vaccine. It needs to be administered every year. Who is going to monitor that? A pet fantasy of mine is to hire a van, round up some 30 strays in it and go to the house of one of the "activists". Then release all of them in to their compound and drive away whistling!

My answer to the last line of your post - a resounding yes.

[digitalnirvana]

This thread, while it might have been started for discussion on the ban and with good intentions, has devolved into a general to dog or not to dog (excuse the pun).

Stray management is a serious topic but it is separate from the thread topic.

It needs to be discussed and people need to know but perhaps not in this thread. But warning it is also a deeply emotive topic and can bring out heated responses, especially as some of the posts are bordering on advocacy for kill 'em all. As always sane voices and nuances will get drowned.

I'd request mods to clean up the thread or lock it.

[AnAntinspired]

This is a Car Forum therefore no expectations on it being a Care forum. Generalization of dog breed behaviour sounds just as bad as saying a Bihari is this, a Mallu is that and a Gujju is even more that!

Any dog, like all animals, reacts for survival. If it's survival is threatened, the choice is really flight or fight. With love and compassion the so called worst breeds are better than the best from so called best breeds. And vice versa. My skin in the game comes from over 25 years of being with Rottweilers, Pit bulls, Boxers and also Labradors and German Shepards. Almost all of them were rescued, traumatized, abandoned animals which I took on because of sizeable space of yard and home. Each one of them blossomed with love and calm interaction to being dogs I did tens of road trips with. Being off leash in restaurants, beaches, mountains, hotels and earning admiration from initially scared people who finally couldn't believe how loving these breeds were.

There is nothing like a bad dog. Only a bad human experience that triggers their defense which is sometimes offence. Iv also been bitten by stray dogs when cycling, but have always realised the action caused the reaction. Now, with the right approaches adopted, I end up getting a wagging tail from every stray dog pack that chases me initially.

It's a pity animal interaction is not part of our skewed educational system nor part of home environment learning from parent to child. Why only dogs, even snakes are possible to interact with in a perfectly safe way with the right awareness. Dogs have many qualities superior to humans and we would do well to get close enough to learn a few - operating with far less malice, envy, greed or lust than humans do with each other.

Heck, if there is a ban on dangerous stereotypes, then imagine what human divide would happen by those divisive about community, caste, creed, income group or behaviour. Should they also stop reproducing? Ridiculous to encourage this ban business of anything. Having said all this - Yes, breeding dogs, purchasing dogs should be strictly controlled if not stopped. And neutering, whether stray or privately kept is a must. Population is always a problem, of even the best of species. Ideally should be applied to all Indians as well, there are too many of us too, but that's a topic for another day...

[Fuldagap]

@AnAntispired Thanks for putting it nicely. People have prejudiced, orthodox and unethical minds when it comes to playing God and killing/torturing animals. Be it dogs or any other animal. It is mostly governed by ones own psychological condition and by the way one is brought up from childhood.

Such mentality impediments a rising and maturing civilization like ours. But there is little that can be done to stop the thought process of such individuals. If not for our great laws, charimen and what nots of societies would be breaking hell loose on animals which stand no chance against human action.

I wish such individuals get a first hand experience of performing killing strays right out of their own hands if and when such a law gets passed. They can even travel to get hands on training in the killing mechanisms employed by the USA (if that happens there like it has been posted here). Maybe their minds would change and cleanse when they actually go through the process and not just act as keyboard warriors.

I can't fathom how lightly the value of life is taken up by certain section of our society.

Children also read posts on Teambhp, I hope no child does this one.

[Gansan]

Wow wow! This is now going in to the stratosphere, talking about civilizational maturity and all! I don't think ours is a maturing civilization and the western one is already mature. I think it is the other way around.

Whether strays should be culled or not was a simple query. Some people will answer yes, some will answer no. One can't simply say the other is wrong. I say yes and I have my reasons. Culling is different from killing. African countries cull x number of elephants or some other animals periodically. Australia does the same with kangaroos.

[Samarth 619]

Originally Posted by Gansan

Wow wow! This is now going in to the stratosphere, talking about civilizational maturity and all! I don't think ours is a maturing civilization and the western one is already mature. I think it is the other way around.

Maturity to suggest illegal, immoral things? Well, we're all surprised, you're not alone. How we strongly advocate anti-humanitarian actions when they're not even required, in the name of open debate & maturity, is what surprises me.
I bet you think humans are born to be the rulers of the world too?

Whether strays should be culled or not was a simple query. Some people will answer yes, some will answer no. One can't simply say the other is wrong. I say yes and I have my reasons. Culling is different from killing. African countries cull x number of elephants or some other animals periodically. Australia does the same with kangaroos.

Culling is different from killing? Wow. And Africans/ Australians are the defacto committee on recommending humanitarian actions now?

A strategy involving vasectomy and migration to a less populated, rural or forest areas can still give them right to life and almost zero pain.
The beauty of civilised society is clear from your words. By suggesting culling, we just gave a presentable front end to the devil inside us.

Sorry brother, but don't reduce whatever respect I've left in humanity.
And to end it, you win the debate from my side, for whatever its worth.

Originally Posted by Fuldagap

It baffles me how openly members here are opining about killing stray dogs.
It is illegal, unethical and immoral. Whatever their reasons are.

Agreed. Just nothing left to say. :(

[Fuldagap]

I have not commented on banning a certain section of dog breeds so far. So, here are my two cents.

There is no evidence yet that it works or worked. A myopic view tells us that it does. It is an ineffective way of achieving the desired results. Moreover, it often results in unintended consequences such as, and not limited to, smuggling of the banned breeds.

Take Saudi Arabia for example, keeping a dog in such a country is quite difficult legally. People still do, legally or illegally. Strays have a horrible life.

Over a dozen of logical arguments exist against banning breeds.
One of them being intelligible definition of a certain breed, say Malinois. Dogs cross breed all the time. Identifying whether a Malinois looking dog is it or not is way more difficult in reality than on paper. A desi quite often could look like a GSD when brought up happily or mixed with a GSD.

The only way of getting the desired results is control, awareness and training about dog ownership.

On the topic of selective slaughter (culling), a fancy word for killing, Norway and Turkey are prime examples of stray dog population control. They did not kill the strays, they ran effective programs with collective efforts of the govt and society without killing strays.

A lack of problem solving ability combined with a destructive mind tells us to 'eradicate' '35-60 million' stray dog population.

To capture, vaccinate, spay/neuter and release back the dogs is the most humane way of dealing with the species whose human relation dates more than 30,000 years.

India, arguably the oldest surviving civilization/religion has been a land of dharma, irrespective of religious exchanges has been able to survive so long on the basis of compassion and love towards all living beings. Nurturing hatred and evil thoughts even more so backed by nothing more than personal notions and a lack of scientific evidence leads us to considering killing innocent beings.

The USA deploys immense amounts of resources on the welfare of animals and strays in general. Some countries even have small police units catering to the problem. Instead of looking at the good that these societies do for their animals we look at easier but horrible side of a coin.

India a land where living beings are worshipped as an image of gods, it is but adharma to think of killing them. Unconstitutional? Oh yes, that too!

[digitalnirvana]

@gansan erm culling IS killing, planned killing that is. And by the way I'm not disagreeing that in some cases culling is the best option. I'm just correcting you on the definition of culling.


As the discussion has veered already away from the thread title, I'll step in to the muck.

• People should know that ALMOST ALL municipal corporation owned dog pounds are actually kill pounds. So when you report a dog to the pound it'll end up dead in most cases. They don't have the money to keep a dog indefinitely nor the authority to do adoption drives etc.
  
• Some NOT ALL shelters are also kill shelters. Beyond a certain time dogs end up being culled there (euthanasia), as no shelter has unlimited funds despite you thinking that being associated with a particular animal rights advocate solves all problems.
  
• PETA themselves are well known of rescuing from captivity only to then euthanize. Sometimes to the extent of healthy and possibly save able dogs. However this is anecdotal and I have read their my way or highway style only in the USA. I haven't experienced it.

If you are bothered about stray population in your immediate neighborhood, in fact I recommend everyone able with funds please do the following :

1. See Step 2 first. Every autumn ie around September please spend approx 1500 per female in your area (this is a cost of a pizza) and get then spayed i.e. sterilized. They generally give pups in winter so this will prevent the litter. See Step 7.
2. Generally every area has a dog or cat or animal lover. Get friendly with them. Donate a 15 kg sack of pedigree or purina. Costs less than a Hotstar subscription. Gain their trust. Use them as the hands on guy for sterilisation. You just need to donate and watch from afar.
3. If willing, sponsor some amount to gets the dogs an all in one shot. This is generally useful to protect from the major nasty diseases.
4. A stray dog generally lives five to maximum six years. With no repopulation they'll die out. Others from the nearby will try to move in to the vacant area.
5. Repeat for the next street steps 1 through 3. If possible team up with someone and split the costs.
6. Wait five or six years at max and enjoy zero or close to zero strays
7. Always keep following medicines at your disposal at home once the girl dog is returned post surgery:

• Liv 52 and other vet recommended tablet to heal the wound
• If non vegetarian then fish or meat scraps. Or an egg. Push the tablet inside
• Watch that the dog does not open the stitches. That will be a slow painful death
• Keep a water bowl for the recovering dog post surgery

Statutory warning : Side effects might include new found empathy and respect to animal suffering and death. Also questioning the futility of it all in the grand scheme of things.

[whitewing]

Originally Posted by digitalnirvana

If you are bothered about stray population in your immediate neighborhood, please do the following ...
Statutory warning : Side effects might include new found empathy and respect to animal suffering and death. Also questioning the futility of it all in the grand scheme of things.

The suggestions you made are really practical one and have seen it lived in our locality. This is what each area should try to achieve - a stable dog population.

I have seen this first hand in our locality where a set of committed dog lovers have taken the responsibility of liaising with BBMP for arranging the sterilization.
A few dog lovers amongst us take care of feeding them daily and chip in for the veterinary costs - nothing fancy, just the regular deworming, anti tick tablets plus the annual anti rabies shots.
This ensures stability of a healthy dog population, and these dogs in general learn to trust humans and are not aggressive (there are a few outliers to this that get triggered at delivery men on scooters or the rag pickers).

That said, it is not all hunky dory to manage it. It needs time, effort and cooperation.
For example whenever we go on overnight trips, my wife arranges that the couple of strays she feeds are taken care of.
Some strays are very territorial, and do not like other neighborhood dogs visiting their street. This leads to dog fights on occasion.

The few cases of dog bites/attack I have heard in my area in recent past have either been due to pets being off leash (due to "my dog is very obedient" category of pwt parents) or the pet dog being too big for the handler (that leads to a discussion on the dog breeds, and has already been discussed in this thread). The victims were the morning walkers minding their own business. More a case of owner's irresponsibility.

The question is - as a society, do we have enough empathy to get involved (either via our own efforts or with our purse strings). This is no different from people helping out others humans via philanthropy or volunteering.