[dailydriver]

Originally Posted by rahul_jo

I never blamed the Government.

Thanks for the revert.

When the title says Can any Government ever change India? it is reasonable to expect answers like:

1. Yes
2. No
3. May be

But the very premise of your argument is that

no Government can ever do anything unless there is a substantial change in our pre-dominant thinking, psychology and belief system.

Don't you think the title dissonates the text? I might be nitpicking here, but still.

[AltoLXI]

Originally Posted by dailydriver

How can this one incident lead you to decide that the country needs to change? Are the rest of the Indians just photocopies of this modern but milder Sherlock? India, like so many others, is not a perfect nation. Nor are its citizens. Why should we be?

I was about to say the same thing. India bashing has become a fad. More so when our own people blame everything and expect the Govt. to fix it for them. Indeed who elects the "representatives"? Aren't they one amongst us? As a society we are "like that" and the Govt. is a microcosm of what we are. Some of the sensitive folks will only realise what is missing in our society only when they start comparing with the societies of other better-off countries.

No country is perfect and neither are the citizens of any country. The so called "developed countries" are no better. It is only the mainstream media (which is controlled predominantly by western countries) which shows these countries in favourable light. In fact the games played by the Govt there are on a massive scale resulting which we miss the wood for the trees.

[aargee]

Originally Posted by AltoLXI

No country is perfect and neither are the citizens of any country. The so called "developed countries" are no better

Wish to make a small correction, in most of the "developed countries"...
1. There's lot of civic sense & discipline, atleast more than what we see here
2. There's no corruption to get a work done that you're legally entitled, but to get a work done out of law
3. Law is enforced as much as possible with a dotted line to point #2

And...it's not India bashing...my country is beautiful, the ones who're governing are rotten & we don't have a choice other than to pick up a bad apple than the worst one!!

[AltoLXI]

Originally Posted by aargee

Wish to make a small correction, in most of the "developed countries"...
1. There's lot of civic sense & discipline, atleast more than what we see here

Agree with the civic sense. I refer to the experience which rahul_jo mentioned. Aren't there any fraudsters in the developed countries?

Originally Posted by aargee

2. There's no corruption to get a work done that you're legally entitled, but to get a work done out of law
3. Law is enforced as much as possible with a dotted line to point #2

That is why I mentioned "In fact the games played by the Govt there are on a massive scale resulting which we miss the wood for the trees.".

Originally Posted by aargee

the ones who're governing are rotten & we don't have a choice other than to pick up a bad apple than the worst one!!

Despite knowing we are picking a bad/rotten apple, we still want to pick something from the apple basket.

In today's news:

Majority of Indians support non-democratic representations, according to the Pew Research Center’s Democracy Report released on Oct. 16. Only 8 per cent Indians are committed to representative democracy, according to their commitment to representative democracy index. Representative democracy is a system where citizens elect representatives to the government.

http://littleindia.com/worlds-larges...cy-pew-survey/

[aargee]

Originally Posted by AltoLXI

Aren't there any fraudsters in the developed countries?

I'm not siding with Rahul, nor with you, but taking middle path, whoever signed that agreement in the first place, didn't he know what he was in agreement? If his business is going in loss, he ought to take a different strategy to earn more rather than cut loss, that too at the cost of other? To an extent the lack of enforcement does support. Had there been a swift 30-60 days verdict to such disputes in court, no one would even dare to violate such agreements, would they? Point is, fraudsters DO EXIST in all countries, but when it it's a dispute, justice is rarely missed while justice is rarely prevailed here

Originally Posted by AltoLXI

Despite knowing we are picking a bad/rotten apple, we still want to pick something from the apple basket

Well, what happens if we don't? Someone would pick up the most rotten. Every single law in this country has loop holes favoring the politicians & elite class in one way or other. Ofcourse I agree with you on your previous point, most developed countries also have such laws, but, when a dispute arises between a common man vs common man, justice not only prevails but not delayed as well. But in here...adhaar is mandated for mobile phone, but not to cast vote

Originally Posted by AltoLXI

In today's news

No comments on this, since I take 50-50 on surveys

Here's another brilliant example where in a dealer cheats a customer & when caught red handed, they in turn find a fault with customer, so making two wrong turns making it right - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post4289280

[ptushar]

I think Rahul has asked a very pertinent question. It's not about blaming the government, but it's more like "Can any Government ever change India, if the people refuse to change?"

Here's my experience a few months back. I was waiting for a taxi, standing on a footpath. The footpath was narrow and barely two people could walk side by side. The road was choked with traffic and the traffic was slow. I was looking out for my taxi and hence was standing facing the traffic and looking for the taxi number. Suddenly there is a loud honk right behind me. Not the normal horn but one of those blaring horns. I almost jumped out of my skin. I looked back and there is this bike, with two guys, on the footpath and going in the wrong direction. I was irritated and I confronted this guy on why he was driving on the footpath. Now what this guy did next really scared me. He accelerated his bike and banged on my leg. I somehow jumped out of the way. Next he stops his bike on the footpath and both the guys walk towards me and start abusing me. They create a scene, almost threaten to trash me and then happily leave with a grin on their face. Better sense prevailed and I maintained my calm, though I was boiling inside. People are looking and not a single person steps up to the situation. They continue driving on the footpath and continue blaring their horn while on the way.

Now, this incident really got me thinking. Can we really improve as a nation. I don't think so. It's almost like indiscipline is ingrained in our DNA. Every day when I drive to work to Hinjewadi in Pune, there are so many people who are driving on the wrong side of the road, jumping traffic lights and generally being a nuisance on the road. These days even the traffic warden is no deterrent. The number of law breakers is so high that what can this one warden do?

And who are these people? When you look at them, they are educated people working for some decent company, they are teachers, they are doctors, they are lawyers. They come from educated families. Some of them have even traveled abroad. So if education, employment and opportunity has not been able to ingrain discipline then what really can any government do?

Now's here my hypothesis:
1. The government can instill some seriously ridiculous fines. Like for example Rs. 50,000 for driving on the wrong side of the road. And start pursuing a few cases and make an example of them. Charge a few and rest will fall in line.
2. Maybe file court cases against people driving on the wrong side under some law like intent to murder. I know it sounds extreme, but unless the deterrent is severe, people are not going to listen. A Rs. 100 fine is joke.

The alternative to me is too scary. An entire generation of people being brought up as an indisciplined society, susceptible to being compromised by giving an easy way out.

Recently someone sent a WhatsApp video of Japanese discipline on the road with a question, when will India be like this. I almost had a heart attack laughing. The audacity of the person to even think that this is possibility is absurd in it's own right!

[aargee]

Originally Posted by ptushar

Here's my experience a few months back...continue blaring their horn while on the way

Fantastic; this is precisely a write-up I was eagerly waiting for.

30 years ago, driving on wrong side was totally unheard
20 years ago, riding on footpath was seen occasionally by motorist
10 years ago, riding a bicycle on wrong direction was common sight
5 years ago, motorcycles were riding on wrong direction, but would wait prominently if they had to
3 years ago, it was common sight to see cars driven in wrong direction
Since last year, it's a common practice to see two wheeler fellows yelling to yield when riding in wrong direction & cars to ACE to govt buses to trucks driven in wrong direction. It will be interesting (scary) to see what more could get worse than this!!

BTW, 60+ years ago, policemen would impose a penalty on a cyclist riding without lights!!

Point is, is there any improvement seen for 50 years? If no, then there will be none going forward as well

Originally Posted by ptushar

Now, this incident...what really can any government do?

Beautiful points

Originally Posted by ptushar

1. The government can instill some seriously ridiculous fines

People will bribe the policemen imposing penalty & still get away; it will help few middle men to become wealthy instantaneously

Originally Posted by ptushar

Maybe file court cases...people are not going to listen. A Rs. 100 fine is joke

Yes, with a slight twist; something like a guy making an offense in Pune should be made to go to court in Bombay on a specific day at a specific time to pay a penalty of Rs 50 with his adhaar card matching his thumb impression on the govt e-ledger. But all these are process which takes DISCIPLINE.

Originally Posted by ptushar

The alternative to me is too scary...being compromised by giving an easy way out

Oh!! That's nothing; these days riding in wrong direction WITH THEIR KIDS (read primary & secondary school) in rear seat is very very common sight; these young kids are seriously taught wrong by their own parents. Like I keep saying, the worst is yet to come.

There's a very simple way to put everything into right perspective - LAW ENFORCEMENT. All the existing laws are good for now, but the lack of enforcement makes it all worse. Let the constable let go off a businessman, counselor, MLA, MP's vehicle no matter what they do on account of saving his cap. They're not many in number; catch hold of rest of the violators right from jumping signal to stop line & impose the penalty on them.

This is just an example, tip of an iceberg; unless the entire lot of folks from sergeant to clerk in RTO to inspector to DGP to lawyers to high court judge to tasildhar starts enforcing the law in right perspective, there's not going to be law enforcement. And law enforcement can be done only by the govt & it cannot be done by a common man. What a common man can do is abide the law. When one common man sees another common man's offenses go unpunished, thus starts the chain. So it's all up to the govt which will never change is my humble opinion!!

[asingh1977]

Nothing can happen, unless we start from today, for the all the children born: and change one generation. I rarely see a person today, in our Indian civil society who is decently mannered, not selfish / geo-centered, courteous, has ethics (and morals), cares about safety, worries about hazards, remembers that there are humans around them, and just be a nice clean person -- from the heart.

Things I notice here, but not abroad (and augments the shallowness of the hyped Indian culture and chest thumping) -- minute but speak volumes of our society. These are really diminutive factors which manifest into bigger issues, which are the composite for ones character and internal mettle. They roll up to : Assault, battery, rioting, trolling, being unnecessarily brash, cheating, conniving, lying, fraud, graft, and rampant corruption, dishonesty. Which are prevalent in our society, and understood to be normal / sane / ok.

Observing en masse (not an exhaustive list, just figments):

1. Rapidly closing the lift doors and leaving passengers behind.
2. Pushing ones body into a door (metro, lift, eatery); before letting people exit.
3. Not knowing what the word "thank you" is. I think it has been deleted from our dictionary.
4. Not knowing what the word "welcome" is. I think it has been deleted from our dictionary.
5. Swearing in public, with disregard to man, animal, or weed.
6. Walking through a door -- when someone else (at the other side) has opened it for themselves, basically going through before.
7. Knocking and hitting people with their feet -- and then doing the stupid action of "touching the persons body with your hand and then touching it to your forehead". What the heck is this supposed to mean. It looks so moronic and weird. Just watch where you walk. Or cite a verbal sorry.
8. Disregard for private law (like guards, society watchmen) -- not showing bags, not showing i-Card. Walking away with a huff.
9.* When walking forward, pushing the person in front - directly with your hand. Actually pushing them out of your way. This really makes my blood boil, and I look back and question "is there a problem".
10. Pushing back the flight seat (max back) during meals -- and making a face when an air hostess requests to upright.
11. Sitting on another seat in the cinema -- then making a face when asked to move. Or saying -- "hall is empty, go sit some where else".
12.** Same with CC trains -- to "sit" with the family. [People try this even on flights now -- groan]. Just a few hours..? Will it break a relationship..?
13. Talking in whispers (in the ear) in front of groups. Then giggling.
14. Same as (13) - but regional language. Then guffawing.
15. Borrowing a pen at some government office, returning it, when asked for. Not before.
16. Blocking a foot thoroughfare. When politely asked to move: refuse, not acknowledge, or do so with an irritated face.
17. N. [non exhaustive]

Some examples:
[9a] : A lady in a saree shop actually pushed me (she was probably 70) out of the way. Like, literally pushed, and was oblivious to me, since the lure of Kanjivaram sarees was too much. I just looked at her, and told my wife, this lady just pushed me away. Her daughter heard "Yes, she did, so". I looked at her mildly exasperated. I wondered: No wonder her daughter is full of spite.
[9b] : A young man at an SBI counter, kept pushing my back. I questioned him. He says, I stand like this. I told him, okay stand with your fist half a foot out, but do not apply force. He seemed quite angry at me.
[12] : I reach my designated seat, and an elderly gentleman is sitting on it. I tell him, "Sir, this is my seat". He loudly calls his son "dekh yeh kia bol raha hain" (see what he is saying), in an extreme contrite and rude manner. His son, comes and asks me to "adjust"; since I am "single". What the heck is that supposed to mean..? So I say, OK, and sit on another seat he shows me as his. Later on someone else comes, and with a ticket (in my face) tells me, I am sitting on his seat. When I confront the "son"; he says, "arrey woh hamari nahin hain, humnain woh swap mari hain". (That is not ours, we have swapped). I was part of some 3 way swap or something. I called the TC, and got the old man to move. I was so pissed off. Why should I have to "adjust", so someone else does not have to "adjust".

Our innate core has gone rotten.

[Sawyer]

Originally Posted by asingh1977

Our innate core has gone rotten.

I empathise with you completely, but the question we have to ponder is what is the way out? Else we will just go round in circles in the quagmire we are in and remain trapped there forever, until some truly major natural calamity eliminates over half of us.

[johy]

A friend is looking for a villa/ 3 BHK apartment for investment in a nice upcoming locality in Bengaluru. Any suggestions would be more than welcome.

The basic idea at the moment is investment, with possession in a year or two (no hurry), but he will probably move and settle there in the future.

Budget is around 70 L to 1.1 Cr.

[maddy42]

I totally agree with the conversation going on here and have couple of points to contribute.

Our legal system is a major factor to our behaviour. Ours may be the only country where settlement is a accepted reality to get cases dismissed. Even simple tenant issues takes ages to get sorted out.

We do not value others property, period! We rented our apartment out to a family in mysore as its preferred by everyone and considered low headache. This is my familys first apartment and they visit atleast once a year to check on it. When i was home we went to see it and were Shocked! The tenants son rode his outdoor bicycle in our apartment, right in front of us. The walls were used as a drawing board by the two young kids of the tenant and it was in a total mess and dirty. Should a owner just look the other way as its a rental?

I live in a small town in the states and even at 2am the signals are adhered to. Drunk driving is a no no and everyone knows if there is a death on the freeway. Do i even need to provide a contrast?

In a recent property deal, the verbal agreement was made and 20 days later we get to hear that the sale is being made to another third party. The lady who was selling had come crying to us to make the sale before. When we visited the ladies house it was a different scene altogether. We then had to cough out more for the same piece of land. If only they had told us before their price for the land we didnt have to go through this mess.

We need some common courtesy and should learn to stop competing for everything. Appreciate others ideas and acknowledge their success. There is no point being jealous everytime.

Maddy

[ajmat]

Originally Posted by maddy42

We do not value others property, period! We rented our apartment out to a family in mysore as its preferred by everyone and considered low headache. This is my familys first apartment and they visit atleast once a year to check on it. When i was home we went to see it and were Shocked! The tenants son rode his outdoor bicycle in our apartment, right in front of us. The walls were used as a drawing board by the two young kids of the tenant and it was in a total mess and dirty. Should a owner just look the other way as its a rental?

In a recent property deal, the verbal agreement was made and 20 days later we get to hear that the sale is being made to another third party. The lady who was selling had come crying to us to make the sale before. When we visited the ladies house it was a different scene altogether. We then had to cough out more for the same piece of land. If only they had told us before their price for the land we didnt have to go through this mess.

We need some common courtesy and should learn to stop competing for everything. Appreciate others ideas and acknowledge their success. There is no point being jealous everytime.


Maddy

Renting is so unattractive unless you had bought something in a prime location cheap years ago. You are better off investing elsewhere. Most of the time, property is a sentimental asset.

Only time worth renting is if you are away and plan to return to the place someda. Then renting at least avoids letting the property deterioriate. A friend of mine working for a major indian conglomarate was renting a 5000sq ft apartment for relative peanuts. Reason? The owner was happy to lease this aportment to a good company for the long term who would maintain the property.

As for land agreements - avoid verbal but again, a one shot transaction is best. Many cases of the advance paid and people left hanging.

[deemash]

Hi Friends,

These days in Coimbatore, big builders have started using fly ash bricks.
The normal clay bricks are still being used by individual persons who construct houses.

I have read somewhere that fly ash bricks are superior than the normal clay bricks.

But few forums say that fly ash bricks emit radioactive waves and this might adversely affect humans living inside house.
Is this true?

As far as I understand, fly ash is a by-product of burning coal, which is labelled as "hazardous".

[Saanil]

I am also of the opinion that real estate investments are not going to give returns seen in the past decade. Being from Mumbai, I am disheartened to see real estate prices. I currently stay in Goregaon and was hoping to shift to a so called better area like Vile Parle, Santacruz (W). I feel there is just no way possible that a salaried person can buy his/her first flat in these areas. Either the salary has to be >4lac/ month (which sounds ridiculous), or one has to save substantial savings. My dad and I went to see some flats in the above mentioned areas and came back severely disappointed. Just hearing the flat prices made me feel that I am not working hard enough in life to buy such things.

[asingh1977]

Originally Posted by Sawyer

I empathise with you completely, but the question we have to ponder is what is the way out? Else we will just go round in circles in the quagmire we are in and remain trapped there forever, until some truly major natural calamity eliminates over half of us.

Sorry for the late reply. Nothing can be done. Nothing.

We just have to live with it. Ignore it, or join it. But this bad and low life behavior is less in smaller cities. At times I dread my decision to live in an NCR city and getting a pay check. If I could get half of what I get, and go back to my small village-town of Mussoorie, I would pack now. Just now.

Things were not this bad around 2001-2002. Not sure what happened, and our society exploded and has become over hyper and intolerant. People have become more conniving and mean and interfering to others life. Also more bashful and show-off. Probably the economy busting open and we getting access to more options and materialistic goods. Has lying, cheating, and being dishonest been always so deeply ingrained within us all. It is nature now, not even second nature. Absolutely shocking.