[csnanjappa]

Originally Posted by warp_10

Adani Enterprises FPO fully subscribed on Day 3, QIB portion booked 97%
Abu Dhabi's IHC, one of the anchor investors, poured in another $400 million in the FPO

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/bu...3-9969601.html

Seriously ?? Alas, our belief in power and money restored !!

ADIHC is one more crook group, they are the government of Abhu Dhabi & not private investor or Institution investor. They are have a long-standing issue with the finances of Manchester City, where they have shown inflated income & sponsorship revenues coming from Ponzi companies. Seems all the associations of Adani groups are with some kind of crook groups (Chinese and Russian investments from what I read). In case the next Govt is not BJP, complete wealth might be eroded from Adani stocks.
Retail subscription, which is only 10% for the FPO says there is no faith in Adani group from retail investors.

[alphamike_1612]

Originally Posted by vrprabhu

ILFS's downfall didn't bring infra growth to a standstill.
If the so called 'assets' are created and indeed have value, it won't matter if the company that created them goes down - there will always be takers for good value assets...

Originally Posted by Turbo_Charger

The gentleman is Anil Ambani. If Adani (hypothetically) fails the country & its infrastructure will still survive like they have done many times in the past.

Thank you vrprabhu & Turbo_Charger.
I didn't think about these 2 companies. I seem to have missed the glaring obvious.

Also if my prior post looked anything like me defending the enterprise on the basis of Nationalism, I assure you that was the least of my intentions.

Also the upward movement of Adani Enterprises yesterday and today to me felt artificial.
With such weak retail participation in the FPO and mutual funds already staying away from the company, I wonder how the price managed to remain in green.

[Ford5]

A bit off topic, but another Indian conglomerate with the name T has it's ownership fenced by T Sons, which itself is not located/has major presence elsewhere in a country few hours away. The aforesaid T Sons gets $ from all of it's entities and this seems to me like a more professional & polished approach to hiding/rerouting wealth back to their Promoters... you know that thing which swims about oceans & Islands disguised as "investments".

Don't mean to digress, but the T group is also firmly ensconced with the fake nationalist guys.

[NewUser123]

An unbiased, simple explainer of the issue, in layman terms…

https://finshots.in/archive/adani-vs...-simplified-2/

Most articles present an opinionated view on the issue, I feel, hence posting.

[AZT]

Originally Posted by dragonfire

If you looks at some of the twitter threads you will see that there is considerable support for Adani from the Indian public. For them it is an attack on the current rulers which means an attack on India.

Social media agencies know what buttons to press. A lot of it is manufactured outrage and I wouldn't be surprised if it's bots retweeting or posting the same thing.

The 413 page reply just proved they have nothing to say so drowning people in meaningless data. I said this a while back in another thread that India is turning into an Oligarchy and Adani is the definition of an Oligarch. Russian Oligarchs did not make as much money under Putin as our local boy made under the current government. I'm sure thats something to be proud of.

[inwester]

I haven't studied this issue in detail like the other informed members of this forum, but I took a look at the 413 page response from Adani group.

Pages 1-2: heading and contents
Pages 3-26: stoking patriotism and stuff about their group
Pages 27-54: purported response to allegations, without giving a lot of details or clarifications
Pages 55-413: annexures (basically a bunch of court/tribunal orders)

So the real response is only limited to 27 pages, not "four hundred and thirteen pages".

[Jeroen]

I have seen several members referring to the Adani response on the 88 questions from Hindenburg. Basically because Adani presents a very detailled and lengthy response it is assumed they are guilty (although nobody actually says guilty of what)

I am not saying Adani is or is not guilty of any wrong doing. But before spouting such conclusions, based on the volume of their response, I suggest you actually read the 88 questions and the Adani response.

Whether we like it or not, but the Adani business is hugely complex. Seemingly simple questions on complex matters, rarely can be answered with simple bullet type of answers. That is not specific to this case, but I do believe it is with any (complex) topic you care to discuss.

Again, not making any judgements here on either Hindenburg or Adani. In all honesty if I had to answer these sort of 88 questions about the multinational company I work for, the answer would also run into hundreds of pages.

If you would like to read the 88 questions and the subsequent answers have a look here:

https://www.republicworld.com/busine...ticleshow.html

Jeroen

[how_you_doing]

If virtue signaling had been an Olympic sport, we Indians would always have at least 1 guaranteed gold.

1. South Korea gave all its resources to Samsung and a few other companies as they wanted to build a war economy. This is why they moved from a developing to a developed country in just one generation.

2. China provided all the protection to their companies. Their navy goes with their shipping vessels to protect them.

3. US companies bribe their government in the name of lobbying.

How dare India think of talking about being a 30 Trillion dollar economy and multiple trillion dollar companies? Don't you know only Chinese, Japanese, Americans, and Koreans are allowed to work in grey areas and dream big?

Plenty of Indians live in their la la land and suffer from crab mentality where they hope our own to fail. I guess they are hoping to revive bidi/agarbatti industry to make 10 Trillion USD by 2033.

1. Businesses worth billions of dollars can't be built without government help unless you are into new technology or willing to grind for decades. Do you really think Adani can build the port, roads, cities, clean energy, etc without working closely with the government?

2. All the businesses that Adani Group is in, need massive capital to grow. India needs 10 more Adani, Ambani and Tata and their ambition to be a 30 Trillion USD economy. As we have seen from 1960s to 1980s, the government is too slow and can't do this.

I don't follow Adani group or the stock market. I won't be surprised if they worked in grey areas but then who isn't working in the grey areas?

Adani will be fine. The social justice warriors who become overnight experts in farm laws, the army, and now auditing will find something new in the next few weeks.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by dragonfire

The 413 page response is not meant for Hindenburg, but for internal consumption. That is the reason it brings up nationalism into it and tries to build the narrative that the attack on Adani is an attack on India. As usual the nationalists at home will lap it up, and that is evident from the upward movement of Adani stock price yesterday.

I am sorry but how is a public response to a public report for "internal" consumption only?

Originally Posted by dragonfire

If you looks at some of the twitter threads you will see that there is considerable support for Adani from the Indian public.

And you think thats organic? Is that why the retail investor participation in Adani stocks is so low? Ever heard about twitter bots or twitter farms?

Originally Posted by JediKnight

I am sure Mr Adani has done some hanky-panky. But the ground realities of doing business in India are far different from what arm chair experts and self righteous keyboard warriors(like me) understand. I hope his overall intentions are good and he wants to create something of value for the country.

You are going down a extreme steep slippery slope by hoping that a crony capitalist somehow has good intentions in his heart.

A crony capitalist by definition thrives on lack of competition, corruption, inefficient allocation of resources, reduced social mobility and decreases public trust in the economic system. And you can already see the issue manifest itself in India already. I am not going to repeat the stats as they have been presented beautifully in this thread --> https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shift...gs-riches.html (India: Rags or Riches?)

The problem that I see with Indian fundamentalist nationalism apart from the notion of fundamentalist nationalism is that it sees state as an entity which completely separate from people that inhabit the state. How can the state be prosperous if the people of the state are not? If aim to prosper the population and not just a wealthy few, crony capitalism can never be the answer.

[inwester]

Originally Posted by how_you_doing

If virtue signaling had been an Olympic sport, we Indians would always have at least 1 guaranteed gold.

The social justice warriors who become overnight experts in farm laws, the army, and now auditing will find something new in the next few weeks.

1) This is a public forum.

2) India is a democratic country.

3) Adani firms are publicly traded.

There will be and should be public discourse.. unless you want everything dictated in an authoritarian way.

[srini1785]

Originally Posted by how_you_doing

If virtue signaling...

Originally Posted by inwester

1) This is a public forum... dictated in an authoritarian way

This thread is slowly proving Godwin's Law :

Godwin's law, also known as Godwin's rule of Hitler analogies, is a statement maintaining that if any online discussion continues long enough, someone will almost certainly compare someone else to Hitler.

[dragonfire]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

I am sorry but how is a public response to a public report for "internal" consumption only?

I guess I should have put quotes around it. By internal I meant, their fans within India.

And you think thats organic? Is that why the retail investor participation in Adani stocks is so low? Ever heard about twitter bots or twitter farms?

You seem to underestimate them. We had been seeing the meteoric rise of Adani in the last decade or so, initially within Gujarat and then pan India and even overseas. Did we all believe that it was normal? We all knew that there was something murky going on. We chose to condone what was happening because it was our favorite boys who are in power and we are okay with some corruption as long as the core agendas are in place.

Retail investors were bullish on Adani not because they thought that the business was legitimate, but they knew that as long as this regime is in place, they will continue to make money.

Originally Posted by AZT

The 413 page reply just proved they have nothing to say so drowning people in meaningless data. I said this a while back in another thread that India is turning into an Oligarchy and Adani is the definition of an Oligarch. Russian Oligarchs did not make as much money under Putin as our local boy made under the current government. I'm sure thats something to be proud of.

By bringing in nationalism to the mix Adani is playing to the gallery. They know that it is a commodity that will sell well domestically.

[ninjatalli]

Adani group of companies are still losing market value, inspite of the FPO being fully subscribed. However retail institutors and employees did not bite the bullet so there's some impact over there too. Over the last week, the group of Adani companies have cumulatively lost nearly 30% of their market value (~5.6 lakh crore inr / $65 Bn).

Gautam Adani has slid down from #3 to #8 on the richest list globally, all in less than a week's time.



Sources 1, 2

[aadya]

Originally Posted by how_you_doing

If virtue signaling had been an Olympic sport, we Indians would always have at least 1 guaranteed gold.

Dear sir, a Chief was all knowing and was critical of a prime and his underlings. The chief is a prime and keeps quiet. None of the underlings are behind the bar but we have new underlings doing the same things. If only experts have to comment the chief should have been quiet when he was shouting at the base of his voice.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by dragonfire

You seem to underestimate them. We had been seeing the meteoric rise of Adani in the last decade or so, initially within Gujarat and then pan India and even overseas. Did we all believe that it was normal? We all knew that there was something murky going on. We chose to condone what was happening because it was our favorite boys who are in power and we are okay with some corruption as long as the core agendas are in place.

Retail investors were bullish on Adani not because they thought that the business was legitimate, but they knew that as long as this regime is in place, they will continue to make money.

Just a correction - the rise has been meteoric in the last 2 years. In 2019 his wealth was a mere $8.7bn

https://liberation.org.in/liberation...wer-and-wealth

And when I mentioned retail investors, I was co-relating support you mentioned on twitter vs the response from the retail investors to the stock.

Originally Posted by WindRide

Good post. Most people are looking at this from right/wrong angle. Mega corporates, without exception, live in the dark grey areas with cover fire provided by their governments.

We are doing now what the west ("advanced" nations) has been doing for generations. And to those who think Adani is the first Indian corporate with govt patronage, please revise history lessons.

Well that would be right if we were increasing the wealth of the republic as a result as well but we are not. On top we are not creating world class companies in any competency area either because by definition a crony capitalist empire thrives on lack of competition. What incentive is there for anyone to create anything world class if only the connections matter? In GDP per capita we are below Bangladesh right now. The wealth is incredibly concentrated so much so that if you earn 25k a month, you are in the top 10% of the Indian population and approx 800 million Indians are dependant on government handouts for basic sustenance. We should have been cruising towards being a middle income country, infact we should have been one already, but here we are amongst the poorest countries on the planet.

https://www.thequint.com/news/india/...ernment%20data.

https://www.newindianexpress.com/bus...l-2533540.html

And even if I take your theory that Adani is not the first one to have government patronage, surely the results aka status quo should speak for itself and we should course correct. Right?