[am1m]

Originally Posted by alokk0912

Now, few of my batchmates for example -
1.
2.

Well, apart from a couple of points, I too can think of college batch mates who have followed similar paths. And we're not from an IIT, but a moderately ranked private engineering college.

So looks like even 20 years ago, an ok college was good enough. These days, with the number of opportunities that children (from middle-class and wealthier families) have, it's no longer an imperative to graduate from the very best colleges to make something of their lives. Or better yet, to realize their true potential and their interests. Of course, it's great to be able to get in to the best colleges and that will certainly be a great advantage, no doubt about that.

But certainly, like you also said, there's no reason to force them into one.

[androdev]

I am surprised you guys are very happy to celebrate this as a good thing

Don't shoot the messenger I just pointed out, in reply to members saying brand of the college doesn't matter, that these advantages of network are real.

Originally Posted by Samurai

Isn't this exactly like a caste system? The elite minority is ensuring that the rest won't even get a fair chance.
How is this different from an old boys network, which is now universally recognized as highly discriminatory thing?

My post was a broader comment about the benefits of education that allows one to be part of a high potential peer group. IIT/IIM is just a well-known example of many such peer groups. You also have peer groups for all top tier academic institutions. Similar peer groups exists in the form of (ex) workplace networks, say ex-google, etc. which IMO are more effective. You get into all Indian govt run premier institutions by going through an open and transparent exam process. You don't become part of this peer group due to birth, gender, race, etc. so your analogy of caste system doesn't apply here.

Whatever happened to meritocracy?

Govt run Indian institutions are by far the most transparent and objectively merit based organisations. You can get into Harvard if you are from a privileged family but not into Indian colleges run by Govt. You get into these peer groups by slogging your butt off purely based on merit. This could be IIT graduate group, ex-google employee group, or serial entrepreneur group, etc. You can't argue that such a group is enjoying undue advantage of having access to plum jobs, etc. without merit. You get into that group by merit to start with and it's open to all.

, and that becomes a justification for this coaching madness.

Coaching actually made IIT accessible to many average small town students. Without coaching only students with elite schooling or well educated parents from big cities could get into IITs. In fact, most well-to-do families shy away from IITs now because their children can't cope with the intensity that's required - leaving only the dedicated and deserving students to make it. IMO, entry criteria to colleges like IITs has moved from "who is the smartest" to "what is willing to go the distance" - similar to civil services. Speaking from a society's point of view, I feel this is a good thing. Middle class students do exceptionally well in these areas, otherwise this space would have been hijacked by rich people as is the case with the Harvards of the world.

The main issue we have is that of parents forcing their children into something they have no aptitude for and also as a society we have an extremely narrow definition of success and happiness.

I would argue that having exams like JEE is a necessary evil for a poor country of such a large population. Can you imagine the disservice to the poor if the selection was based on essay writing, public speaking, debates, resume, reference letters, etc.?

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by androdev

You get into these peer groups by slogging your butt off purely based on merit. This could be IIT graduate group, ex-google employee group, or serial entrepreneur group, etc. You can't argue that such a group is enjoying undue advantage of having access to plum jobs, etc. without merit. You get into that group by merit to start with and it's open to all.

I am not saying IITians haven't worked hard. What I am saying is you assume rest of us haven't worked hard. You pay scant respect to folks outside your identity group. I have met IITians who genuinely believed that every Indian engineer who didn't make it to IIT, is someone who failed to make it. They would ask my AIR and thought I was lying when I said I never even tried. Satya Nadella went to Manipal (not IIT), yet now he is the most successful CEO of Microsoft.

Originally Posted by androdev

I would argue that having exams like JEE is a necessary evil for a poor country of such a large population. Can you imagine the disservice to the poor if the selection was based on essay writing, public speaking, debates, resume, reference letters, etc.?

Isn't essay writing, public speaking, debates, resume, reference letters, etc., open to all?

If you think IIT is open to all, it is no different than saying Harvard is open to all.

Since you are only familiar with your peer group, you are not realising that IIT is a pipe dream for majority of folks because of various reasons. I am not aware of a single classmate of mine who made it to IIT, period. About 10% of my classmates in PUC (National college, a top college 40 years ago) were trying for IIT while ignoring their PUC syllabus. There were only 5 IITs then. None of them made it, and their PUC marks were also in shambles. It is not like rest of the class was full of morons, there were many who didn't try for IIT, landed in top 100 in the whole state in the PUC exam. These guys didn't take the huge risk of trying and failing in IIT-JEE. Their mostly poor/middleclass families couldn't afford it, so they were trying via state CET, which had much better chance of success. Many got into REC with their good PUC/CET scores, yet rejected it to join a college in Bangalore to avoid hostel expenses. Even I got a merit seat via CET, and landed in a local college.

Originally Posted by androdev

Coaching actually made IIT accessible to many average small town students.

And what are they teaching? Entrance exam cracking skills? How is that relevant in their eventual profession?

What is really required in higher levels in any profession? It is EQ, and not IQ. What does IIT/IIM or cracking JEE/CAT teach about EQ?

To quote a 30+ year veteran shankar.balan:

Just because someone has a degree from a big name institute, doesn’t automatically mean he or she has common sense and people skills and general smartness along with book knowledge or subject matter expertise, all of which together make all the difference in creating a well-rounded individual.

In fact, in any company, the non-IIT/IIM is the actual majority. May be as high as 95%. That means non-elites are in much better position to understand and empathize with the employees, than an elite who thinks he/she is leading a herd of sheep.

Just look at IITian Bhavish Aggarwal, I wouldn't wish such a boss on anyone.

Originally Posted by Moneycontrol

When Bhavish Aggarwal arrived for a recent visit at the Ola Futurefactory, marketed as the world’s largest electric two-wheeler plant, the company’s founder was quick to spot a shuttered entryway that should have been left open. He immediately summoned a custodial manager, people who were present said, and meted out a punishment: run three laps around the several-acre-large plant.

[NetfreakBombay]

Originally Posted by Samurai

And what are they teaching? Entrance exam cracking skills? How is that relevant in their eventual profession?

These classes teach how to stay motivated for 4 years (9th to 12th) and solve questions everyday. Starts from 10 questions a day in 9th to 200 at the fag end.

Ideal student :

1. Retains this quality
2. Has EQ + Communication skills

These are the kind of students that IIT can provide if a company gets day 0/1/2 slot for internships or placements.

[androdev]

Originally Posted by Samurai

What I am saying is you assume rest of us haven't worked hard. You pay scant respect to folks outside your identity group.

Sir, there is no "you" :-) I come as androdev@team-bhp and I am sharing my perspective. When parents ask me for advice about college admissions, I tell them the reputation of the college is to be factored in because I believe peer group is very important in shaping a young persons's future. That doesn't make me a supporter of peer group based privileges and I am not sure if this issue has relevance to JEE + coaching topic. It's basic human nature to "collect" privilege cards and pass them onto friends and family - each one of us is guilty.

I have met IITians who genuinely believed that every Indian engineer who didn't make it to IIT, is someone who failed to make it. They would ask my AIR and thought I was lying when I said I never even tried.

Unfortunately this belief exists across the spectrum. If someone takes up B.Sc in south India, it's automatically assumed that he/she didn't clear engineering entrance exam. If someone stops studying after class 12, he/she will have to explain herself for the rest of his/her life. The point is that such assumptions exists across the spectrum and everyone assumes that all kids follow the same path of education.

Satya Nadella went to Manipal (not IIT), yet now he is the most successful CEO of Microsoft.

I think his non-IIT background is highlighted a lot and him being from an IAS family is rarely brought up. I am not trying to twist the narrative but if your dad is an IAS officer you are very much familiar with ambition and thinking big. In fact, most IITians are not enlightened about big things until they join a US school for higher studies. This is why I keep emphasising the peer group. Somewhere an individual has to get inspiration to dream big and believe in possibilities. If your dad is a big shot, it can happen right from childhood. Of course, it's a different matter that you may not have the fire in the belly to do what it takes.

Isn't essay writing, public speaking, debates, resume, reference letters, etc., open to all?

To do well on these parameters, you would have to be from a very affluent family going to some elite schools. These are really higher order skills which are practically non existent in our country due to the nature our schooling and education system. Such education costs a bomb.

If you think IIT is open to all, it is no different than saying Harvard is open to all.

And what are they teaching? Entrance exam cracking skills? How is that relevant in their eventual profession?

What is really required in higher levels in any profession? It is EQ, and not IQ. What does IIT/IIM or cracking JEE/CAT teach about EQ?

A simple exam like JEE can be attempted by all the students and coaching compensates for lack of quality schooling. A lot of JEE coaching happens in vernacular language and a student of modest IQ can go a long way if he/she is dedicated. While the admission process of Harvard is holistic and superior, it's not egalitarian. None of the poor or middle class complain about JEE exam pattern. It's always members like us who have already earned our social security, want exams based on critical thinking, reasoning and other higher order skills. I'm sorry but our country doesn't have infrastructure to impart such education. Let's first have hygienic and safe slow trains in large numbers, then we can think of bullet trains. Let's not always look at Harvards and Finlands of the world and go wow. Our drill based math and science education has served our nation well - hopefully we will move up the holistic ladder as more people get past the social security hurdle.

The way I see is that the entrance exams in our country are designed to select "those willing to stay motivated and work hard" and not "who is smart/creative/distinct, etc.". I don't know if this happened whether by accident or design - but this is for the better when you consider our huge population. A big negative outcome is that some children who are not interested in the drill are being forcefully made to join the drill by parents.

Just look at IITian Bhavish Aggarwal, I wouldn't wish such a boss on anyone.

I am sure this has more to do with his cultural upbringing that even a college education could not reform.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by androdev

None of the poor or middle class complain about JEE exam pattern.

Of course they do. I already stated that most people don't even attempt it. About 90% of my class didn't try it.

Besides, aren't we getting far away from the core issue?

Why are we having this caste system in the corporate world? It is directly feeding into this coaching center madness and depriving lakhs of students normal life during their teen years.

If IITians are that good, let them compete in the open instead of keeping us barbarians at the gate using the caste system. I am sure they are well trained at competing, thanks to their JEE experience.

[srini1785]

I think this thread has run its course. Its now a For or Against IIT discussion.

[Everlearner]

IIT now affects your marriage prospects as well.


https://shrts.in/Atbn3

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by srini1785

I think this thread has run its course. Its now a For or Against IIT discussion.

I agree that this thread is best closed. It wont end easily.

[GeneralJazz]

Originally Posted by Everlearner

IIT now affects your marriage prospects as well.

I really can't understand what this fuss is about. It's the girl/ family's preference, those not interested need not respond. There's nothing particularly unusual about the requirements. Marriage brokers receive similar or more requirements regularly. Groom's salary, groom should not belong to so and so caste, district, region. This is nothing new.

Many people are taking this opportunity to take a dump on the girl. Gold digger, modern feminist etc.. are being freely thrown around. Whatever it is that she brings to the table, isn't it upto the groom to accept/reject it? Don't we have unemployed guys expecting huge dowries? We have job advertisements in newspapers openly mentioning "**** religions/castes need not apply". If no outrage for that, why only for this?

PS: OP, not directed at you, just a rant in general.

[Samurai]

Shekar Gupta at The Print thinks college pedigree doesn't matter anymore. I guess he is mostly talking about non-technical jobs. Have IIMs lost their pedigree value, I am not so sure...

https://youtu.be/RNJ7yxJgcXo