[Samurai]

Originally Posted by Theyota

But, if I and him have a job writing a guidance control algorithm for a rocket, I think the IIT grad would show that his algorithm would take the rocket to its destination in fewer tries than mine.

Is that what you think most software engineers do? Well, in that case I will not try to change your perception of software engineers.

Originally Posted by Theyota

I am sure you know that there is lot more software than the software that does not require math and science. In fact the software that makes it possible to write many software requires insane amount of math.

Yeah, yeah... go on, finish your thought. I mean... it is really rare someone gives much credit to my profession. Nice change from being called a code coolie.

[alokk0912]

Interesting. Started with coaching centers and went on to IIT vs non-IIT. My view as an IITian and father of 14 year old twins getting ready to go through the grind of coaching classes.

Just being an IITian does not guarantee anything in the world. However, it does increase the probability of being successful. Benefit of IIT in my mind, an amazing peer group which will be hard to find elsewhere.

Now, few of my batchmates for example -
1. CEO of Forture 500
2. IAS - Currently in Prime minister's office
3. Few have their own startups. At least 2 of them have valuations close to half a billion dollars
4. Quit everthing after 22 years in corporate; teaching kids online
5. Running a very hot shot IIT coaching classes (irony!!) in one of the tier 2 towns
6. Professor in one of the Ivy leagues
7. Rest junta like me doing their usual jobs in corporates.
8. One of them is a film director and made a movie on similar theme

These are just my batchmates/peers and not alumni. It will be list of who's who if I start looking at all the alumni. I think having a peer group like this is something which is much more probable in IITs compared to rest. Everything else like getting a job and being successful in corporate depends on many more things than just being from IIT.

Do I wish that my kids study in IITs. Yes! However, am I going to make their or my life misreable if they don't. No!

[binand]

Originally Posted by alokk0912

Now, few of my batchmates for example

Sounds like you and I are batchmates. I also have all those people to enumerate.

[Arun Varma]

I never was good at the rote and regurgitate kind of academics. Barely scraped through college. Studied to become a zoologist, and ended up flourishing (mostly) in ITeS. I never did an MBA. Only an executive management program at one of those 'big' management places and most of the details of which were forgotten within 6 months.

Enough has been said about the merits of these coaching centers, and I have nothing to add regarding them. However, here are some extra-curricular learning areas that I believe we are in desperate need of, which I am not seeing in our educational system - both mainstream and sidebar are helping with much:

Responsibly consuming information - Information is a commodity these days. Gone are the days when knowing stuff was revered. Now everyone with access to a connected device 'knows stuff'. If anything, in many aspects, rampant, indiscriminate access to and consumption, and dissemination of information that is hurting us. The latest example is the pandemic and the consequent mushrooming of conspiracy theorists, social-media-certified physicians, and epidemiologists. What is needed and needed desperately, is a collective enhancement of our ability to filter content, consume and share responsibly.

Informed decision-making - In an age where everyone knows everything, the ability to make decisions is a key differentiator in and outside of the workplace. It correlates with the first point. I have seen too many instances of too many people who know everything but cannot put one foot forward to another. Worse, indecisive people slow others down, and God forbid they occupy positions of influence and power.

Non-binary thinking- Increasingly, our thoughts are entrenched in this 'us vs. them' / 'good vs. evil' mindset. And this is another area where social media is to blame to a large extent. When we are committed to our opinion publicly, it is psychological that we are forced to defend it at any cost and many times even in the face of evidence to the contrary! We need to be able to view every issue with nuance, context, history, and emotion!

I understand these are things only life has to teach us, but it seems a pity!

[hondatoyotafan]

Originally Posted by alokk0912

Now, few of my batchmates for example -
1. CEO of Forture 500
2. IAS - Currently in Prime minister's office
3. Few have their own startups. At least 2 of them have valuations close to half a billion dollars
4. Quit everthing after 22 years in corporate; teaching kids online
5. Running a very hot shot IIT coaching classes (irony!!) in one of the tier 2 towns
6. Professor in one of the Ivy leagues
7. Rest junta like me doing their usual jobs in corporates.
8. One of them is a film director and made a movie on similar theme

Are you from IIT Kanpur , one of my colleague is from there and tells me about a similar friend's list

[Piyush Kanthak]

I honestly feel that JEE is overrated. it's best to do B.Tech from IIT's or top NIT's only. But there are around 13,000 seats for which 8 lakh people compete, and the chances of getting a seat are slim.

I have also noticed that many students taking 2-3 years of drop, still don't get through the exam!!

Isn't taking admission to a Tier 3 college and then preparing for GATE a better choice? A student gets 4 years for preparation, also doing your Master's will give the benefit of a better paying job and open a sea of opportunities. In-depth knowledge of the subject will also help in the long run.

Someone, please correct me if I am wrong.

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by androdev

The college/university brand/network plays a huge role for leadership positions. Most of these positions are filled up through invitation and network referrals - very different from entry level hiring where you conduct a bunch of tests and pick those who qualify. You read the short bio of any big shot and the last line typically mentions a reputed college/university - at least something like "executive MBA" from XYZ. Of course, there will be outliers but a good college comes very handy as you get to the top the food chain.

I think it's fair that most parents want their children to be in a place of "good potential." Being surrounded by smart ambitious students increases the probability of that "potential". No point arguing against this. The trouble is that our country doesn't have too many "places of good potential" (aka centres of excellence) to diversify outside of engineering, etc. As a parent, I would be very happy if there are more institutions of reputation in other fields other than ENGG/LAW/MEDICINE/MBA, etc.

Originally Posted by alokk0912

Interesting. Started with coaching centers and went on to IIT vs non-IIT. My view as an IITian and father of 14 year old twins getting ready to go through the grind of coaching classes.

Just being an IITian does not guarantee anything in the world. However, it does increase the probability of being successful. Benefit of IIT in my mind, an amazing peer group which will be hard to find elsewhere.

Do I wish that my kids study in IITs. Yes! However, am I going to make their or my life misreable if they don't. No!

+1 . I wouldn't under estimate the impact of peer group to one's economic growth. Speaking from personal experience.

It's interesting to note that just last month a research article was published on, "The Impact of Social Capital on Economic Mobility".

Extract:

Overview: In Social Capital I: Measurement and Associations with Economic Mobility and Social Capital II: Determinants of Economic Connectedness Theresa Kuchler and Johannes Stroebel, along with their co-authors, analyze the effect that friendship networks have on upward income mobility. The researchers also studied the factors which influence the degree to which individuals interact with people of other socioeconomic backgrounds and provide suggested policy interventions that could increase such interactions.

Why study this now: There have been previous arguments that suggest social capital, or the strength of an individual’s social network and community, can shape other social situations like economic opportunity. However, until now there has been no analysis of the large-scale data that is available from social networks to understand what type of relationships may impact such outcomes.

What the researcher found: Using data from 72.2 million Facebook users, who constitute 84% of the US population between ages 25 and 44 years, the researchers found that the share of high socioeconomic status (SES) friends among individuals with low SES—which they identify as “economic connectedness”—is among the strongest predictors of upward income mobility (i.e., the chances of rising up the income distribution).

The researchers also found that “the extent to which individuals interact across class lines depends on both exposure (the socioeconomic composition of the groups to which people belong) and friending bias (the rate at which cross-SES friendships are formed conditional on exposure).” They further determine that both of these factors can be shaped by social structures and institutions, and thereby can be impacted by policy initiatives such as:

• Changes to how groups are sized and tracked (e.g., in school learning communities)
• Restructuring of space and urban planning (e.g., a larger cafeteria space to allow for all students to interact with each other)
• New opportunities for interaction (e.g., the Boston gym Inner City Weightlifting (ICW) began a program to increase cross-SES connections by recruiting personal trainers from lower-SES backgrounds to coach their more affluent clients)

Key insight: Economic connectedness may be more impactful in affecting upward income mobility than other factors such as quality of school, job opportunities, or family structure. Increasing economic connectedness could be addressed by certain policy changes like urban planning and creating new opportunities for cross-class interactions to occur.

What does this change: The ability to reduce poverty may lie in the increasing relationships and connectedness of people across the socioeconomic spectrum.

This research was published in Nature and featured in a New York Times article. The data is available for exploration at socialcapital.org

[NetfreakBombay]

Originally Posted by Piyush Kanthak

I honestly feel that JEE is overrated. it's best to do B.Tech from IIT's or top NIT's only. But there are around 13,000 seats for which 8 lakh people compete, and the chances of getting a seat are slim.

IIT/NIT are not the only options. One needs to avoid Tier-3 colleges. While top IITs / NITs, are in another league; these colleges are pretty good too:

1. IIITs
2. State govt colleges (via state level entrance exams). E.g : COEP / VJIT / SPCE in MH
3. Newer BITS (Goa, Hyd etc)

Originally Posted by Piyush Kanthak

Isn't taking admission to a Tier 3 college and then preparing for GATE a better choice?

That is a risk. I.e. preparing for GATE requires similar level of discipline. It is only slightly easier than JEE.

Originally Posted by Piyush Kanthak

doing your Master's will give the benefit of a better paying job and open a sea of opportunities. In-depth knowledge of the subject will also help in the long run.

In terms of Comp Sci; this is not applicable. It is better to focus on DSA + projects in 4 years.

Starting pay is same regardless of degree and degree does not help in career either (Beyond the first job).

Benefits of doing GATE are (With Tier 1/2 collages) :

1. Better colleges as compared to B Tech
2. Better placement
3. One actually needs to study
4. Better peer group

[Turbohead]

To all IIT aspirants among students and parents. Don't sweat it out if you don't make it!

Related video:

https://youtu.be/3LopI4YeC4I

[girishv]

Originally Posted by hondatoyotafan

This acquisition and marketing of rankers is nothing new in the coaching industry. One of my cousin studied in a rural junior college and was bright enough to get a top 100 rank in JEE. Next day all the top coaching institutes famous in coastal andhra were at his doorstep for getting test series and exam series signed up which were nicely back dated. He happily signed and pocketed the cash. He was also made famous atleast for the next 2 years with his photos all over the newspapers.



I was an above average student till 10th and so my parents shipped me off to a famous IIT coaching centre in Hyderabad which was like the 2nd option of people who could not get to the no 1. I tried to get into the no1 again but still failed. But my marks in their 'entrance' test qualified me to be interviewed by their promoter/owner. He told me blank on my face that i lost the race already and will never make it to IIT. So after the 1 st year i could not take the stress and i bailed out to normal coaching in the second year. Made it to a tier 2 deemed university and came out with BE. Post that i worked in a big tech company in the US where i had many colleagues from IIT. Although they were a intelligent bunch they were doing the same coding and analytics work. Even now i have reportees from IIT. They even ask me for tips on how to make it.

Can echo the same. Just an average village kid with Kannada medium till 7th and who didn't know the difference between plane and plains.
Finished 10th with just first class, and 12th same. Dropped out for close to three years, then joined BSc. Developed an interest towards maths, but shifted to physics due to one particular faculty.

Long story short, after completing MSc followed by PhD from IISc, currently employed in one of the most revered and loved govt institutes of India.

So, as you said, if you love what you do, you can reach great heights without any tuitions. What I ask my girls is not to aim for coming first in the school, but not to give up.

[Piyush Kanthak]

Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay

That is a risk. I.e. preparing for GATE requires similar level of discipline. It is only slightly easier than Jee.

Benefits of doing GATE are (With Tier 1/2 collages) :

1. Better colleges as compared to B Tech
2. Better placement
3. One actually needs to study
4. Better peer group

Honestly, I am ready to study for Gate, you see, I am suffering from slip disc with nerve compression, hence don't want to go outside Bangalore. College is too hectic for self study though I am trying, I might get into a decent state College. Dad is retiring in 2 years, therefore looking for a good placement.

Moreover there are 4 years for the exam. ( which is actually less) I am ready to give all my effort into it.

[NetfreakBombay]

Originally Posted by Piyush Kanthak

Honestly, I am ready to study for Gate....Dad is retiring in 2 years, therefore looking for a good placement.

Moreover there are 4 years for the exam. ( which is actually less) I am ready to give all my effort into it.

Best wishes for the prep. I urge you to also prepare for placements so that risk is reduced.

[Piyush Kanthak]

Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay

Best wishes for the prep. I urge you to also prepare for placements so that risk is reduced.

Thank you for the wishes, surely I will leave no stones unturned.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by androdev

There is still a somewhat level playing field for entry level positions. The college/university brand/network plays a huge role for leadership positions. Most of these positions are filled up through invitation and network referrals - very different from entry level hiring where you conduct a bunch of tests and pick those who qualify.

Isn't this exactly like a caste system? The elite minority is ensuring that the rest won't even get a fair chance.

Originally Posted by binand

This is exactly what I meant below when I said "benefits from alumni network". There are any number of job openings that are reported only on closed groups (college-provided alumni platforms, email/linkedin groups...) and are filled quickly enough without involving placement agencies and the like (that agencies charge about 15% of CTC per person hired makes this a cost-effective option for the firm also and hence is encouraged usually). Internships & projects are also easier to come by. So are sales leads, collaborations, introductions...

How is this different from an old boys network, which is now universally recognized as highly discriminatory thing?

I am surprised you guys are very happy to celebrate this as a good thing, and that becomes a justification for this coaching madness. You guys in the top 1% may not think about this as a bad thing. However, rest of the 99% have been at the receiving end of this highly discriminatory neo-caste system. I remember how TCS was paying more to IITians, just for that reason. When I was in TCS interview panel in the 90s, I once rejected a candidate for not knowing anything. But HR said TCS had a hiring guideline to hire anyone from IIT/REC/BITS, irrespective of their interview performance. So, the HR overrode me and hired that candidate from BITS. Another time HR overrode me and rejected a very good candidate because he was not from a good college. His merit didn't matter. After these horrible interviewing experiences, I avoided being on the panel. They had a caste system while hiring, promoting and even while fixing salaries.

For every 1 person who wrote IIT-JEE, there are 10 others who never tried it for various reasons. Yet they manage to enter same companies as IITians, often in similar roles, by overcoming discriminatory hiring policies. However, now they are up against another invisible caste system. Whatever happened to meritocracy?

Keep in mind I have nothing against IITians, my boss for 6 years, and later business partner for 16 years was a IITian, and he didn't look down on me. But I don't understand why you are so proud of maintaining a caste system, that denies fair chance to others who made it on their own.

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Isn't this exactly like a caste system? The elite minority is ensuring that the rest won't even get a fair chance. However, now they are up against another invisible caste system. Whatever happened to meritocracy?

I don't understand why you are so proud of maintaining a caste system, that denies fair chance to others who made it on their own.

I completely agree. Just because someone has a degree from a big name institute, doesn’t automatically mean he or she has common sense and people skills and general smartness along with book knowledge or subject matter expertise, all of which together make all the difference in creating a well-rounded individual. What you have described in detail is a common malaise even in the old economy companies. I myself have seen it at first hand. Never agreed with it, but learned to handle it, bide my time and then go to a place where we could start with a clean and honest slate. In the new age companies, the race and hunger for talent initially caused this.

Over time, what was intended originally as a simple filtration system, has become a cancerous growth and robs many perfectly deserving people of that ‘one good break’ that they need.

Our company, the one which I joined as a startup more than a decade ago, is absolutely non-discriminatory in the hiring, selection, recruitment, appraisal and promotion process. We work very hard to ensure a proper decent meritocracy and a clean apolitical, collaborative, participative culture. Because here was our chance to build something clean and honest and which will hopefully live on, after all of us.

Even these big VC/ PE firms, many of whom are at first responsible for the huge funding to startups and then after that morphing into the whip wielding digital plantation overseers, pushing for accelerated and unsustainable consumer acquisition, expansion and mad GTV growth, play the Old Boy network in reference to the credentials of the people they invite on board. They have to have the academic institutional pedigree as well as the typical Big 6 Consulting Pedigree. However, with all due respect, not all of those whom they bring on board their own firms and/ or thrust upon their hapless investee companies, are possessed of that essential, indefinable grain of common sense.

In short, I absolutely despise this covert caste system which seems to be very much in operation around us. Those amongst us, who are Senior enough across various industries, MUST make sure we change things for the better rather than live with the status quo just because we are too cowardly to do otherwise.