[Pacifica]

Folks, when my mother-in-law passed away recently, RedTerrano's Team-BHP thread https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shift...sses-away.html (Things to do when a loved one passes away) proved to be an invaluable resource to help us deal with the practical matters that accompany such a tragic loss.

Now we are faced with a thorny problem, and after much Google-fu I thought Team-BHP might be the best place to ask.

My mother-in-law has a flat in Noida, one that is much valued for sentimental reasons. She has only two children, both daughters, one of whom is my wife and the other of course my sister-in-law. Both daughters are settled abroad, in the USA.

Relatives have advised us strongly to sell the house immediately as "... you will not be living here to take care of it." While this sounds practical, both daughters are clear that selling the house would be contrary to their mother's wishes. So we want to retain the house and keep it in the family. The idea is that we would stay there whenever we visit India.

Now, in the US there are professional house management services that will take care of the house for a fee; does anyone know of or can recommend a similar service in India?

We have looked at https://www.nestaway.com and https://housewise.in/property-mainte...vices-in-noida, but they both seem geared towards NRIs who want to rent property in India. We do not wish to rent it out. The daughters' wish is that the house is preserved and maintained as their mother left it, and we are financially well-off enough that rent income is not a consideration.

Essentially, we want a service provider who will keep the house maintained, cleaned, bills paid, issues fixed, etc. for the foreseeable future.

I understand that this is a bit of an odd request, but I can't think of a better place to ask!

[hothatchaway]

What you are looking for is what we call a "caretaker" in India. A very common position in the decades gone by, well suited for a jugaru or resourceful individual who can get things done.

I assume it may not be easy to get a chap who fits the bill both in terms of effectiveness and also someone you can trust (more important) in contemporary India with many career options for those with the attributes I mentioned.

I suppose you could check in your circles in India for recommendations. The likes of nestaway rents apartments to working professionals/students. They are not a facility management outfit AFAIK.

[V.Narayan]

If you have a trusted, and I mean trusted with a capital T, domestic who has served your family for years you could evaluate if he/she can be a caretaker. But beyond that giving access to your flat to any person or organization is a risk, very high risk, of the property getting wrongfully possessed or worse possessed and transferred off your name without you knowing it. And this is a full time trade in U.P. with connivance of the department that registers properties and their transfers. To best of my knowledge no such reliable service exists in India. It is not just about the caretaker organization being honest, their employees can act malafide too, independent of the organization. This last mentioned has been my experience using one of Delhi's reputed cleaning outfits cleaning a bungalow property I once owned that I kept empty. More stupidities are committed in India on the issue of property than you can count. I have at least two close relatives on that list!! - needless to say they did not heed my advice:-)

I can understand the sentiment in the aftermath of the death of a loved one. But here be practical, sell ASAP and exit. In our country only that property is really yours which you can maintain full physical and visual control of at one hour's notice. Others could have a different view or better advice. I'm basing my input on experiences I have observed around me.

[Amrik Singh]

This is a major issue with families torn between lands. It is a known fact that the daughters have an attachment with mothers. So for their sentimental value, they do not want to sell the house. Fine. But how about your children ? Or their next Generation ?
If you try to sell off the house now, there are only Two Legal Heirs and it is quite easy for two to sign up Sale Deed. Just imagine that for the next generation of Legal Heirs. Personal differences, no time to be together for legal paperwork. No knowledge of how things work in India - bribery, greasing the Palms and Taareekh pe Taareekh..
This I am telling you from numerous cases of properties biting dust in Punjab (including one Havelli of my Grandfather) as a major part of families are divided over countries and continents. The older generation did not divide the properties to their kins before their demise, the present generation is spread all over world and cannot be united while the next gen have no interest in India. If an individual takes some initiative, just one opposing the idea is sufficient to get 'Stay Order' and hold all to ransom.
IMO, you must sell off the house at the earliest. There would definitely be a Cash Transaction being the difference between actual market value and Circle rate. You, being conversant with Indians, may be able to handle it - not your kids.
Legally, non Indians (by Citizenship), though PIO have many additional hassles to go through in Sale Deed.

[shancz]

Sentiments aside but if you have emigrated to a foreign land please make sure you don't have any legality pending over here.
Your next generation will consider this as a "headache" if they have to spend their vacations dealing with such issues if you already don't.

On the topic of caretaker, adding on to above points and assuming you don't have a trusted person as a caretaker, don't bother with it.
What's stopping an unknown to sublet/rent it out to someone else and they might be involved in creating nuisance to the society/neighbours and at worst doing something illegal/criminal ?
You'll have to deal with all that and in person.
IMHO the above situation wouldn't be what your mother-in-law would've wanted or for the flat to be gathering dust.

Rest is your call.

[GTO]

- Bills & payments are the easiest. Just enable auto-debit on your bank account. I pay my electricity & water bills, property taxes all online.

- Get CCTVs installed in the house. Just to ensure no one is living in it for free or misusing it for parties, Airbnb etc. You can do surprise checks from USA.

- Pay a friend or relative who needs the extra cash to visit the house once a month and get everything cleaned. Just like a holiday home, daily cleaning isn't required.

Originally Posted by Pacifica

Relatives have advised us strongly to sell the house immediately as "... you will not be living here to take care of it." While this sounds practical, both daughters are clear that selling the house would be contrary to their mother's wishes. So we want to retain the house and keep it in the family. The idea is that we would stay there whenever we visit India.

Frankly, unless it is your primary house, one must not get sentimental about real estate. Keep it only if its going to appreciate and you will sell it in the future. Else, sell it now.

[am1m]

+1 to all the "sell" advice.

Am the designated "caretaker" for some property that is similarly being kept in the family for "sentimental" reasons and the time and effort I've put in just to keep visiting and sorting out hassles, including getting encroachment cleared, is just wasted because for sure no one is ever going to stay there! And I was just 60km away- shudder to think what the situation would have been like if I was in another country!

Never get sentimental about real estate, learned that the hard way! Plus the longer the time has passed after the death of the primary/orinigal owner, the more chance you will have to run around more when you finally decide to sell it. Only the lawyers and real estate agents/government land offices will stand to make more money at that time!

Having said that though, I do know several relatives who do manage to maintain family homes even while they are out of the country. But all of them have some blood relative in the immediate area who has enough time on their hands to go supervise whenever required.

And I do understand that while it is easy to say "sell", it's as hard to convince the sentimental members of the family to do so. You'll come across as the heartless one who just wants to get rid of the responsibility. So good luck, and hope you do find some solution.

[Sran]

Ask any relative to do that for you. If you do not have any such close relative and both sisters can not go there every six months for atleast 15 days then sell it asap. Wouldn't recommend asking society management or any neighbour to look for it for long term. Theft is also an issue, one can never be too careful, so remove valuable items. Selling will require both inheritors to sign the deed. PoA is complex and during the finalisation of deal take your S-I-L alonh or let her handle the selling and send your wife along. You wouldn't want some weird accusations later in life, however friendly you all maybe right now.

Maybe look how airbnb, yatra or other travel companies homestays works, empty houses age/deteriorate 10 time faster.

[Sebring]

Have done this for decades. I just lock my house, tape the gaps in windows, not to let pests/dust in. Nothing happens, trust me. Once in a year or so my relative visits the house with our loyal maid (From Dad's house) and she just mops. Every window has a motion sensor, one camera is connected to my 'neighbour uncle's' wifi (all hardware from the USA, zero breakdowns). It has SIM option as well. Basic UPS is also on and requires distilled water 'top-up' once a year (pay Rs 350 monthly to BESCOM, Power Company). I get alerts/switch on video on phone anywhere in the world. Tech is making things easy, really. Keep furniture covered and all clothes/fabric in plastic 'vacuum bags' to avoid musty smell. If in case you still want someone to live there, just ask trusted relatives/friends and discuss this. Who wouldn't want to 'take care' of the house, since you're not expecting remuneration either? Keep it within your circle

Originally Posted by Pacifica

So we want to retain the house and keep it in the family. The idea is that we would stay there whenever we visit India. Now, in the US there are professional house management services that will take care of the house for a fee; does anyone know of or can recommend a similar service in India?

[thanixravindran]

My suggestion is NOT to sell since you have mentioned that this is a flat. So it has less chances of having unwanted attention by unscrupulous elements unlike individual houses which is a lot tough to maintain locked. There is a huge real estate mafia with nexus with every other rogue out there to sell out the vacant real estate by forging documents.

Before moving into maintenance aspect, first get the flat transferred to the daughters so that they become the owners by producing legal heir certificate. This will establish them as the rightful owner. Ensure all the Electricity, Gas, Water connections, Property tax in their name. This will reduce the chance of mischief and you can show absolute possession of the property.

Please explore reverse mortgage option with a bank that you have relationship with. This means you get the money upfront and property is also secure till their lifetime. Next generation can decide whether they will retain the house by paying up or just dispose it off with bank is their choice.

Now, the maintenance part of it. As GTO mentioned, it is very easy to pay the bills like Electricity as everything is online. You can also pay the property tax online. Please install CCTV within the flat.

For cleaning, you need a trusted neighbor or nearby relative to leave a key. I suggest you lock a room that only you can access and leave the main key to relative/neighbor. Or you can consider modern access solutions that on need basis only you can lock/unlock apart from lock and key. You can use a maid who they already have to get the house cleaned in a month or quarter. I don't believe any maintenance is needed if there is no one going to be staying there. Pay the common maintenance dues to the apartment association properly to establish good relationship with them. Since it is a flat, you can rely on the apartment electrician/plumber in case need arises during your India visit.

If this is a individual house, my advise would have been to sell but if you are okay to spend money and time, one can explore about getting a trust formed and bequeath the property rights to the trust and establish trusteeship within family. It all depends on the value of estate and efforts needed as it is a bit complex but it is more secure.

[libranof1987]

Here's our experience and learning from managing an empty house from a thousand kms away: houses disintegrate more, and faster when unoccupied rather than when inhabited.

- Dust finds their way in, no matter how much you tape openings. This is a huge problem in NCR (esp. non-Delhi)
- Given how hard the water supplied there is, the plumbing gets destroyed. Sanitary ware and fixtures, esp. rubber parts degrade over time of non-use
- Safety and security
- Rodent damage: rodents try to get into the house and often die when they can't get out / find food. A rat got stuck in our chimney exhaust (it cut the mesh and got in, and they couldn't get out).
- Costs: even if you have the money, it gets tiring to have to keep paying for maintenance and repairs
- it is very difficult to have to rely on someone (be it someone you pay, or a relative who does it out of the goodness of their heart) to upkeep the house.

Overall, it is absolutely worthless to maintain an empty house. Given that you are all settled outside, it may be best to rent it out, or better, sell it. The emotions attached to it may seem all mushy right now, but we all move on. Be pragmatic and look to sell it off. When you visit India, a hotel stay for the duration may work out much better.

[alpha1]

Originally Posted by Pacifica

My mother-in-law has a flat in Noida, one that is much valued for sentimental reasons.

Could you also specify which kind of flat is it? I mean is it like flat in single building or is it a big apartment complex?
I am assuming that when you say flat - you definitely did not mean independent house.

[ObsessedByFIAT]

I would strongly advise to sell off the property. If the daughters are adamant on not selling, rent out the property, not for money but for peace of mind that the family residing there will take care of it.

Forget about getting a caretaker, professionally managed or otherwise. You will never know how the property is being used, or rather misused. No cameras or other such devices help. Thugs are way more smarter than us these days.

I stay in India and have three properties within 15 kms of where I stay and trust me, it's the most herculean task to maintain them in good shape.
Renting out the property is the best way and you and tenant can agree on the terms and conditions you wish to impose and get a registered agreement. No notary stuff.
I would go a step further and suggest that if you can rent out the property as a guest house to a company, nothing better. Rest assured, the company will ensue the property is in top condition for their employees to stay comfortably in.

[KPR]

I would strongly advise to sell off the property. It will be of great help to those who stay in the building. Those who live with such NRI neighbours also suffer here. Take my example. I own and live in one such flat out of 5 flats in a premium apartment building. 3 flats are locked by retired parents whose children are settled abroad. 1 owner has let out his flat for rent (Thanks to him!). The three NRI owners visit once or twice (for not more than 3 days) a year. They aren't interested to let their flat out for rent or sell them. As the only owner staying in my building, I'm the sufferer here as I have to take call on maintenance, security, etc., If they don't let out or sell, I'm planning to sell mine and relocate to a lively neighbourhood.

[Vinod_nair]

Totally relate to your dilemma, had been an NRI family for nearly 20 years, till 2011 everything was okay when we shifted our FIL from allahabad to Kanpur, we had our servent's son take care of him and we used to send him pocket money, he passed away in 2011.

After which we locked the house, an independent house, and left the keys with our neighbour, we would visit atleast 2wice a year, and in the interim there was a big robbery, where the buggers could not find anything but old clothes and linens, so they dismantled a couple of fans and took the copper coils

This is big headache for the son in-laws like you, like most have suggested @V.Narayan, @Amrik Singh etc, you can take a call, however, if you all were in the Gulf/Middle East it's just a few hours flight, and things can be managed, it's easier said than done.

All the best.

Regards
Vinod