[SnS_12]

Originally Posted by avira_tk

The employees aren't there to prove loyalty, they need to take the highest offer before their time runs out. Neither party has any illusions about the trade here, if you are offered 2x and then 2.5x, you can forget about the 2x offer. Isn't it unethical of the company to lowball the candidate? How did you reach the conclusion that they don't know their worth? It's the only thing they're successfully finding out.

Hence, I said its unethical to expect the new company to better the pay post the offer letter has been issued. The company you're trying to move out too is not lowballing you and is offering the job letter after negotiations and if you feel the salary is low you demand more before the letter is issued. Unless you expect companies to give out blank cheques as salary.

But if you see nothing wrong then why stop even at 2.5x keep roaming around with that letter until you run out of companies who can better it any further.

These are things/challenges one will understand when he/she has a team/company to run. People management is the most difficult job as you climb the corporate ladder.

[Latheesh]

Originally Posted by Slick

Also a very unsettling trend that I have observed is people putting down papers, then negotiating and retracting their resignation only to again resign in 5-6 months. Leaves a very bad taste.

Such folks are not welcome back in the org(Simply because they will never be satisfied) , else all are welcome back.
Nothing wrong is resigning but if you negotiate, at least stay a year or don't retract at all.

- Slick

Problem is company will not think twice if they had to fire him (due to recession or project cancellation) within 6 months of him accepting their counter offer.

[adisan]

Many posts in this thread have listed why and how the organization/HR causes disgruntlement among employees, and why and how some candidates further increase the rift between employees and the organization/HR. Both parties are neither totally correct, nor totally wrong.

Who usually might get impacted by all this? Those who are sincerely and diligently working towards achieving the organizational objectives.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by Latheesh

Problem is company will not think twice if they had to fire him (due to recession or project cancellation) within 6 months of him accepting their counter offer.

Can you really blame them? When candidates follow the mantra "Make hay when sun shines", they should be also ready for the flip side. When sun sets or is hidden behind dark clouds, don't complain.

Originally Posted by avira_tk

The employees aren't there to prove loyalty, they need to take the highest offer before their time runs out. Neither party has any illusions about the trade here, if you are offered 2x and then 2.5x, you can forget about the 2x offer. Isn't it unethical of the company to lowball the candidate? How did you reach the conclusion that they don't know their worth?

Companies are not in the business of discovering the true worth of a candidate, and then reward them for their wholesome worthiness. That is probably the role of some scholarship committee or national talent search exam (NTSE). Profit making companies have no interest in them.

Salary depends on company budget, and has nothing to do with candidate's worthiness.

[Slick]

Originally Posted by Latheesh

Problem is company will not think twice if they had to fire him (due to recession or project cancellation) within 6 months of him accepting their counter offer.

Agreed, but it also varies from Org to Org. Organizations do think many times before firing long term employees, unless the Org itself is in bad health, Sinking Ship, so to say. It is true at least where I work.

Also an Org doesn't sack a highly paid employee just because they can refill that position with a cheaper one after a few months. The gold rush that is on right now, this is going to be a reality soon.

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

Actually none of these things are new. I have seen above cases happen in the companies I have worked atleast over the last 10 years.....

I think @CaptainSlow means to say this behaviour was the exception and not the norm, as it is now.

Originally Posted by SnS_12

This unethical behavior by some employees is what will ultimately comeback to bite them. ....

Agreed, It certainly gives them a bad name in the current Org. Also they do not appreciate the effort it takes and the levels of approvals it takes to roll out an offer.
A good Organization with checks and balances will always take time to roll out an offer.

Originally Posted by avira_tk

The employees aren't there to prove loyalty, they need to take the highest offer before their time runs out. Neither party has any illusions about the trade here, if you are offered 2x and then 2.5x, you can forget about the 2x offer. Isn't it unethical of the company to lowball the candidate? How did you reach the conclusion that they don't know their worth? It's the only thing they're successfully finding out.....

Absolutely correct, but this is one side of the story. Ethics and loyalty are two different things.

Loyalty is sticking to your org with or without good compensation in return.
Ethics is agreeing to a deal and sticking with it.

You can always ask 3X then 5X then 7X and there will always be someone willing to pay 8X.

I have seen people accept an offer, then come back with a new counter offer, We matched that as well, agreed, then again came back with a new offer.
This shows a lack of ethics.

I understand that one doesn't need to be loyal to his Company, but one does owe it to themselves to be ethical.

Like mentioned by @CaptainSlow, Earlier such cases were very few, now everyone seems to be doing it.


Also an interesting thing is if a good org, which has a good work life balance & better growth prospects offers you 10L, which a body shop offers you 11L.
Earlier majority would take the sensible org, now its the later.

Though all said, at the end of the day, this frenzy is fueled by the Orgs which are ready to pay crazy amounts to fill in positions. These Orgs will start cracking once their projects end.


- Slick

[Chetan_Rao]

Everyone's in it for themselves, employers and employees alike, but the sticky bit about 'making hay while the sun shines', is a LOT of salaried employees don't account for when the sun stops shining, because night invariably follows day.

Unrealistic gains often come with unrealistic expectations and risks attached (true for both employers and employees), and given a fixed-income employee (or a limited-funding start-up for that matter) has far less capacity to weather a downturn compared to a cash & asset rich MNC, a little due diligence is warranted to avoid potential financial catastrophe hay-making can wreak.

[V.Narayan]

Some great posts here by Capt Slow, SnS_12, Slick, Samurai San and others bringing a balance to the thread. As someone who has finished running the career/business gauntlet altogether I have only this to say to the young job hoppers of today -- your life, your moves, your opinions are all available on the digital medium for the world to review. Today you might be a junior or mid- tier code writer and job ghosting might seem par for the course. But tomorrow you might be someone with aspirations for senior positions and your past performance, job hops, ghostings etc will likely get checked quite deeply.

In the companies I am associated with when we recruit at the CXO level we reference check with almost every boss/HR Head that candidate worked under over the previous 25 to 30 years. I kid you not. A lot of companies today do that for the CXO level. As someone who has been around in the corporate arena for a while I get such checks at least a couple of times a year for folks who worked under me some time back. Our deeds today of being penny wise pound foolish could catch up with us one day. Of course if we choose to stay at a junior level all our careers our job hopping might not catch up with us.

On a lighter note I was once sent a pilot candidate, a Filipino, who had, hold your breath, worked for 21 companies in 20 years of his flying career. No guesses what happened. What intrigued me is that he did not think this was abnormal! You can't build a career behaving like a taxi.

[avira_tk]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Can you really blame them? When candidates follow the mantra "Make hay when sun shines", they should be also ready for the flip side. When sun sets or is hidden behind dark clouds, don't complain.

Companies are not in the business of discovering the true worth of a candidate, and then reward them for their wholesome worthiness. That is probably the role of some scholarship committee or national talent search exam (NTSE). Profit making companies have no interest in them.

Salary depends on company budget, and has nothing to do with candidate's worthiness.

The employees know they'll be kicked to the kerb without the slightest consideration when the bad times come. They're asking for the hikes so that they have a cushion for the inevitable crisis - second company jet vs paying for wage slaves aka resources. You know who'll get it in the neck.

Worth, in the context of the discussion is the pay for an employee. Companies aren't in the business of rewarding competence let alone worth and other assorted esoteric qualities. Profit making companies can and should pay for skilled labour, the workman is worth his wage.

[Latheesh]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Can you really blame them?

No, we cannot. It is applicable for both (employers and employees).

Originally Posted by Slick

Agreed, but it also varies from Org to Org. Organizations do think many times before firing long term employees, unless the Org itself is in bad health, Sinking Ship, so to say. It is true at least where I work.

Also an Org doesn't sack a highly paid employee just because they can refill that position with a cheaper one after a few months. The gold rush that is on right now, this is going to be a reality soon.

I saw a person getting fired within 5 minutes of entering to the office in the morning. He had ~ 40 years of experience with the company. I also saw half of the floor getting emptied within minutes (fresher, experienced, long termers included).

Recent trend is a concern even for companies who has good work culture, job content, and salary. Mainly due to less experienced new hires getting much higher salary than the existing employees.

Reduce notice period to 1 month. Current 3 months notice period make it difficult for the employees to leave but companies want new employees to join in 15 days (or less). Only way it is possible is hiring people who are already serving notice period (means they already have offer 1.--/2/3x offer with them).

[Mr.Ogre]

Originally Posted by SnS_12

This unethical behavior by some employees is what will ultimately comeback to bite them. Once you have accepted a job offer and agreed on the salary how can you expect the new company to agree to match a new offer you received after your offer letter has already been issued by them.

Ethics is not a one way street. And let's not get into that. Where does the ethics go when a candidate accepts the offer, resigns from the company to be told at the last moment by the new company that they cannot go ahead with it. There are tons of such incidents happening. What happens to the ethics when layoffs happen at the worst times?

Sharing my example - I don't get into the game of getting offers from multiple places and bargaining with my current employer, or negotiate with others. If I accept an offer I resign, and don't look back. I moved to Sydney in 2019 on a PR. I quit my job in India before I came here. Once I came here I applied for jobs through indeed, LinkedIn etc at multiple places and also got through first round of screening process at multiple companies. However at one of the companies the process was quicker and I cleared all the technical and managerial rounds. The pay offered was good and was given a joining date. At this stage being the gentleman I am I sent out email communication to all the other companies that I had applied earlier requesting them to withdraw my application. They all responded back and were happy about the way I was honest. However, my bad luck the company I was about to join, withdrew the offer letter just a week before citing Organisational changes. The recruiter I was dealing with sounded very apologetic and many candidates along with me had their offer letter withdrawn. This was a major blow as I had already withdrawn my application. It wasn't long before I got another job, but this experience really added to the stress levels.

Not only this while I was in India I experienced layoff first hand at one of the major banks I was a permanent employee with. While the bosses got good bonuses some 1500 people like me were laid off. So, lets not bring ethics and all those fancy words into this. It is a simple case of demand and supply and no side will think twice before reengaging on their word.

[SnS_12]

Originally Posted by Mr.Ogre

Ethics is not a one way street.

Please read my post #166 for better clarity. But even after that you’re argument remains the same then I have nothing further to add.

What is common across many industries is that during annual appraisals a person will look out for alternate offers and expect its existing company to match it or better it and stay back. But what some members are saying is that its ok to now take this new offer from your existing company and go back to the new company and ask them what better they can offer.

This exercise is not healthy if you’re looking for long term security and stability both for the employer and employee.

And no company will be interested in holding back an employee who gets a counter offer every few years to get a better or higher hike unless that person is so capable that no matter how much you pay he/she will bring in 5x or 10x revenues for the company.

[Mr.Ogre]

Originally Posted by SnS_12

Please read my post #166 for better clarity. But even after that you’re argument remains the same then I have nothing further to add.

This exercise is not healthy if you’re looking for long term security and stability both for the employer and employee.
.

May be you are missing what others are trying to say. There is nothing healthy or unhealthy with that. If there's a requirement companies will go to any extent to get the person, no matter their past record. And if the requirement does not exist the same company can cancel the existing agreement or go back on their offer. All this argument of right or wrong does not exist.

[androdev]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Today you might be a junior or mid- tier code writer and job ghosting might seem par for the course. But tomorrow you might be someone with aspirations for senior positions and your past performance, job hops, ghostings etc will likely get checked quite deeply.

The greatest counter example I can give is that of Hillary Clinton vs Donald Trump. You might start building the perfect resume to become the future president of USA from the day you were born but some bum at the right-time, right-place will beat you to it.

It's my naive opinion that the price for lacking integrity and values is paid dearly in personal relationships at home and with close friends. Not so much in business and politics. More likely that nice guys finish last.

[SoumenD]

Wow so much talks on ethics and all. In a capitalist industry that’s a thing restricted to Corporate talks and HR briefings. No matter what one says, its a fact.

Only 1.5 years ago when covid struck we saw biggest of names FIRE people in hundreds and thousands and then when some other firms realized the value of going digital, hiring spree started.

Its a pure game of demand-supply nothing else. Folks making the most of the situation know they can be kicked out if there’s another recession. Similarly firms are paying up as they know this isn’t forever. They can fire people if things go south.

So let’s give all this ethical discussion a break. No offence to anyone but all this sounds great only to debate. At grassroot level haven’t seen anything like that in my 15 years(seen 2 recessions) of IT career.

[Kick'OKicks]

I really don’t think that the IT outsourcing industry is facing any slow down if we look at busy recruitments going on everywhere. The kind of hikes employers willing to give, not showing any sign of slow down at all. With USD at ₹78 a Dollar, Big companies are throwing everything to get talents or resources from all possible channels.

I won’t blame employees or new joins for not turning up after accepting offers, similarly I won’t blame employers for arbitrarily firing employees. Both are perfect in a capitalistic economies. I won’t waste my tears for any of them. This is a competitive world than collaborative world!

But I had a strange situation of joining with a small (perpetually in a start up mode) company run by a typical
NRI; I had to serve 3 months notice before joining the company, but happened to get involved in the new organisation projects (out of enthusiasm) for about 6 months before actually joining them. At the day of joining them I was asked to sign the appointment letter which stated that I have to serve 6 months notice whereas they can fire me anytime without giving any reason & without notice during the probation (this after my 20+ years of experience) which they extended for one year. This is the kind of employers come and talk about employee ethics!