[JithinR]

Originally Posted by aim120

The videos now shown by ukraine in Bucha say as though Russia is guilty without even investigations, why are the civilians wearing a white band on their shoulders like the russian military.

Logically if a civilians who fears russia will not stay in that city or town and they will move further west. Those who don't mind staying after russian military taken control are civilians who are either of russian ethnicity or just don't care who rules ukraine.

Wanted to address this particular point (like I have mentioned before I have no interest in pretending to be an expert in military tactics or weapon systems on this or any other forum so can't really determine if the other points are true without context and source).

When I look up Bucha on the map it seems to be in the Kyiv oblast. Infact it's looks like it's west of Kiev. I thought most Russian ethnic citizens in Ukraine sympathetic to the Russian cause we're along the eastern and northern eastern borders of Ukraine.

So I am not sure how you concluded that the bodies we see on images are those of Russian ethnicity. Besides, I thought there were reports of Russian blocking humanitarian corridors and even shelling them once they were approved (yes yes I know our Russian brothers would never do such unspeakable acts..and all the buildings in Grozny, Syria or Ukraine fell down of their own accord or because of the CIA).

Besides, if they were of Russian ethnicity shouldn't they have left with the Russians now that they seem to have focused most of their campaign towards the east - south east of the country and away from Kiev?

Also, can you please decide which line from Russian propaganda we are going to follow and just stick with it. On one hand you are talking about how these might be Ukrainians murdering their own citizens but on the other hand Russian defense ministry is accusing the Ukraine of staging these attacks.

So which is it comrade? Fake or done by Ukrainians?

Oh and before you answer... here are some satellite images of Bucha which show bodies lying in the same positions shown during the news coverage but take when Russians were in control of the place.

Not sure how our Putin Uncle will spin this now..but for his supporters who still refuse to believe their hero backed rebels who murdered civilians abord MH 17 despite all the evidence shown by Dutch prosecutors this is not going to a big deal.

See the problem as I understand is that Russia and it's supporters have always tried to obsificate the truth (U.S.A just straight up lies) but unfortunately these are not Stalin's days. Now you have trained civilians accessing satellite footage mere days after the fact and being able to pinpoint the date and place of an event.

So please explain how these bodies we see on the news now (days after the Russians left) were somehow there in the same positions/place when the Russian occupied the city.

Oh and I saw our hated western puppet/poster boy Zelensky on the news in Bucha. Strange since I thought all the military pundits here had already done their investigation and proclaimed this charlatan to be hiding in Poland.

https://youtu.be/PXeTjD6p7XM

Some more analysis of the satellite footage by another biased western media outlet : https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/04/w...ne-bodies.html

[TROOPER]

Found something interesting on Twitter.

[Elito11]

New to this thread. I find Zelensky a very interesting character. A hero for standing up to Russian aggression? Or an incompetent leader who destroyed his country?

[aim120]

Originally Posted by JithinR

When I look up Bucha on the map it seems to be in the Kyiv oblast. Infact it's looks like it's west of Kiev. I thought most Russian ethnic citizens in Ukraine sympathetic to the Russian cause we're along the eastern and northern eastern borders of Ukraine.

Well by that logic all tamil people living in sri Lanka will only be in coast closer to India and not any where else.

Originally Posted by JithinR

So I am not sure how you concluded that the bodies we see on images are those of Russian ethnicity. Besides, I thought there were reports of Russian blocking humanitarian corridors and even shelling them once they were approved (yes yes I know our Russian brothers would never do such unspeakable acts..and all the buildings in Grozny, Syria or Ukraine fell down of their own accord or because of the CIA).

Ukraine didn't allow or agree to evacuate its citizens or foreign nationals towards russia. On contrary its from Indians and and other foreigners we know that ukraine military dont allow civilians to leave.

Even in syria, russians allowed the ISIS fighters to leave to idlib along with their families, so that the syrian army can restore back towns and cities to government control, which was encircled by government forces.Russia could have easily wiped out the convoy. But that was the agreement done by syria assad, russia to give the ISIS and there familes a safe passage and they stuck to it.

Originally Posted by JithinR

Oh and before you answer... here are some satellite images of Bucha which show bodies lying in the same positions shown during the news coverage but take when Russians were in control of the place.

So lets assume those satellite pictures are correct and that russians where present in the area.
Remember the dead Ukrainen soldier who was tied up in chains to a street pole with a anti-tank weapon, in the path of russia convoy. He was found dead, frozen to dead. Does it means the russians killed him. Or like on the second day of war, a BMP was destroyed a russian soldier laid dead there for days and since its a active zone no one picked the body.

Like I said before if a ukraine military is using a house to fire at a position of a russian convoy, don't expect anything but return fire.

No one here is denying civilians where killed by russia or Ukraine in this war. But the difference is this, there is collateral death and then there is killings done knowingly at point blank range.

Without investigating labeling a person guilty, is like only the prosecutor presenting the case without any defense.

Originally Posted by JithinR

Besides, if they were of Russian ethnicity shouldn't they have left with the Russians now that they seem to have focused most of their campaign towards the east - south east of the country and away from Kiev?

So you saw ethnic russian people in maripul still staying there right. They could have gone to russia. But they stayed.

Originally Posted by JithinR

Also, can you please decide which line from Russian propaganda we are going to follow and just stick with it. On one hand you are talking about how these might be Ukrainians murdering their own citizens but on the other hand Russian defense ministry is accusing the Ukraine of staging these attacks.

So which is it comrade? Fake or done by Ukrainians?

If you follow the news from other side, Russians also said about the staging a attack on theater in maripul by Azov. We have several videos of Maripul residents saying who was shooting who there or not allowing to leave.
So until its properly investigated, one cannot know for a fact.
Even on the POW videos of russians being tortured, when the videos was all over the social media, Russia said its investigating that and not immediately labelling ukraine of war crimes. A week went buy and even still only a few western media covered it with words like unverified or fake videos, only a few out of those verified the videos as to be true with regards to blood spatter, gun shot wound/noise etc.

Originally Posted by JithinR

Not sure how our Putin Uncle will spin this now..but for his supporters who still refuse to believe their hero backed rebels who murdered civilians abord MH 17 despite all the evidence shown by Dutch prosecutors this is not going to a big deal.

While they did try to spin it, it wasn't deliberate to take out a airline. The Buk was operated by the rebels, days earlier a Ukraine military transport plane was shot down.
In syria, Israeli F16 fired at targets in Syria while a russian reconnaissance plane was flying. When the Syrians used their really old S200 to fire at F16. The clever but cunning pilot of the F16, flew in a path such that the missile of the S200 would follow and lock on to the russian plane. A dozen russians where killed. Israel denied this but this resulted in russia given the syrians s300 systems.
So while I am in no way justifying the killing of the innocent people in MH17. There are lot of possible ways one can fool a operator in a mobile AA who has no network or situational awareness or in a fog of war. The Iranians shot their own plane down in 2019. We shot down our own chopper.

Originally Posted by JithinR

Oh and I saw our hated western puppet/poster boy Zelensky on the news in Bucha. Strange since I thought all the military pundits here had already done their investigation and proclaimed this charlatan to be hiding in Poland.

No one said he cannot leave poland. Lot of his videos are made with green screen, his own party members where saying he was in Lyiv and not in Lyiv, With many analysts saying he is in Poland.

[goacom]

It looks like after resisting NATO membership for over 70 years, Finland may be on the fast track to join it. Russia's biggest land border is with Finland. So much for Putin trying to weaken NATO!!

https://www.newsweek.com/finland-nat...kraine-1694731

Russia now has to prepare for the long haul, resource intense war with Ukraine that is going to suck it dry. Russia may technically still win the war as it has a much larger military than Ukraine, but what is inevitable is that at the end of the day, it will become an appendage of China.

Don't expect this to play out for at least another few months. It may even take years. The US and Europe will trickle in just enough weapons to ensure Russia slowly bleeds. This will also help Europe to buy time to wean itself of Russian energy. If I were Russia, I would cut off energy shipments to Europe ASAP, as the longer the war goes on, the stronger the anti-Russia alliance grows.

The Czech Republic (home of Skoda... this is an auto forum after all) has just announced shipment of its Warsaw pact era tanks and armored carriers to Ukraine. I will not be surprised if more is on the way.

https://echo24.cz/a/SrjYb/cesko-posl...nku-t-72-a-bvp

[SnS_12]

The EU is no longer on the same page as they prepare to impose further sanctions against Russia in the aftermath of the events in Bucharest, Germany has bowed down to Russia and said that the suspension of Russian oil and coal imports would be more detrimental to European countries than to Moscow.



This war was always more of a financial war than a military war and Putin had more economists around him than senseless politicians when compared to the Western leaders who think that winning a war is shooting themselves and their citizens. Some member said that USA economy is too big and Russia doesn’t have a chance but that is the biggest negative when the economy is slowing and heading towards a recession. Further in such a scenario if you’re a net importer then a net exporter then you’re at the mercy of the countries you rely on for cheap exports and its a sellers market (eg Saudi increasing oil prices or Russia demanding Rubles for payments).

Now, with Germany openly admitting that it will have to stick with Russia and honour its payments demand how many think Putin will not soon demand only Rubles directly as payments? He has clearly said in his statements that we only believe in our own currency or gold as payments for our export products.

If one looks at where Sri Lanka is a country’s currency can become toilet paper in no time when you have prospects of economic downfall and recession around.



And if Germany falls so will EU.

Russia is doing something similar to what US did before WWII , where it ended up with 60% of the world’s gold post the war. West was out to choke and starve Russia and Putin will turn the tables on them now.



Meanwhile this is what is developing in US at the moment

https://youtu.be/j58Bx0Ebppw

[AltoLXI]

Originally Posted by SnS_12

This war was always more of a financial war than a military war and Putin had more economists around him than senseless politicians when compared to the Western leaders who think that winning a war is shooting themselves and their citizens.

These two cartoons aptly capture the folly of the West and how EU is made a scapegoat by US of A

[Slick]

Thank you to all the members, I have learnt a lot about the war and the Geopolitics of Eastern Europe much quicker than I could have otherwise.

There are always two sides to a story, and mostly both sides have some truth to it.

From the thread & online information what I can summarize is -

1. Putin intended to attack Ukraine and annex the coastline, irrespective of NATO involvement. The gas & oil fields near Ukraine's South coast will make Russian energy redundant in the long run.
Also Russia doesn't have a large coastline, this can serve that purpose.

2. Most neighbouring countries to Russia, former Soviet members, are in Ukraine's support, except Belarus.

3. The US/ NATO probably hastened the war using geopolitics and instigating Russia. I won't be surprised if this is what the US wanted in the first place. Play the chess pieces well enough that the Domino effect causes what you desire.

4. Putin did indeed raise concern about NATO expansion via valid channels. Even directly with the US. At the same time he shouldn't control what treaties sovereign countries form.

5. Ukraine cut off the water supply to Crimea post 2014 take over of Russia, a humanitarian sabotage of essentially their own people and enraging Russia.

6. Ukraine could have negotiated better with Russia and kept them in the dark, prepared better for this war. They were too confident that Russia will not attack, almost arrogant that NATO & the west in general will help. It was an over estimation of their relationship with the West.

7. Large scale US meddling in Ukraine politics, we are seeing videos and audios. Thus shedding doubt on the current Ukraine leadership & their independence of thought.

8. Presence of some dodgy American research labs in Ukraine which are possibly working on bioweapons, considered taboo in the modern world. The US senator intervention shows very ambiguous answers.

9. Ukraine, indeed, has a Nazi presence, though they are part of the demographics and not the main driving force. Even in India we have far right & far left violent elements, that doesn't necessarily mean that India is XYZ.

10. Ukraine Army has tortured Russian POWs thus not adhering to Geneva convention. Even though they are themselves the victims they have not shown the discipline to follow the convention.

11. Russians, initially avoided targeting civil infrastructure and civilians in general. Their idea was to only target military installments, A so called demilitarization of Ukraine. But as time has passed they have started targeting civilians as well. The images don't lie.

Putin expected the Russian army to be welcome in Ukraine as saviours, it has not happened, in fact Ukrainians are fiercely loyal to Ukraine, no matter their mother tongue. As a result the Russians seem to be frustrated.


12. Zelensky, while a former actor & comedian (he has been ridiculed for his past profession) has still not deserted his country and is very much within the country. The outcome of the war will decide if he is remembered a Hero or as a Fool.
Putin seems to have a special disdain for him.


13. Russia holds the trump card of cheap Gas supply to the EU, without it Russia would have been doomed by the sanctions. The West is stuck between a rock and a hard place. They cannot survive without Russian gas.

14. EU might suffer extremely high inflation and instability if their leadership is not smart and don't take the right decisions. This period seems to be as critical for EU as it is for Russia & Ukraine.

15. For some analysts, Russia seems to have achieved the goal of controlling the coastline & the energy fields. Though maintaining control is another thing.

16. A lot of mercenaries have entered the war, And NATO & other countries are helping Ukraine with Humanitarian as well as military help. The modern weapons in the Ukraine army's hands seems to have changed the balance of the war.

17. Some Italian airport porter found weapons, instead of aid in US cargo for Ukraine, which is grossly unethical on the US's part.

18. Almost everywhere across Ukraine Russian army has retreated after the initial surge.

19. Major cities in Ukraine have been absolutely destroyed and the rebuilding cost would be humongous, It will probably set Ukraine back by a 100 years.

20. Very bad economic situation in Russia with people struggling badly in lieu of the sanctions.


By Some accounts the outcome/Impact of this war will be -
The East rising and the West setting
VS
The downfall of Putin/ Russia


Opinion - While being objective I see Russia struggling post this war. The US has lost its outright economic superpower status because of the wars it has fought. Russia is a much smaller power.


- Slick

[iTNerd]

Originally Posted by aim120

When ukraine and western media claims russia killed civilians they show bodies but no evidence that russia did it deliberately or where responsible. All sources are west and ukraine officials with no solid proof.

The videos now shown by ukraine in Bucha say as though Russia is guilty without even investigations, why are the civilians wearing a white band on their shoulders like the russian military.

Logically if a civilians who fears russia will not stay in that city or town and they will move further west. Those who don't mind staying after russian military taken control are civilians who are either of russian ethnicity or just don't care who rules ukraine.

In syria. West claims Assad used chemical weapons, russia and syria denied it( videos show the same same kids in multiple videos being hosed with water). West media was pushing for strikes against Assad, russia asked the OPEC inspectors to visit and investigate. But before the OPEC investigators arrived to that place, US and nato launched air strikes against a building and some syrian bases.

Mate, here is a video taken from a drone where a Russian Z armour firing on a civilian cyclist during their stay in Bucha. Now, don't tell me those were Ukrainian tanks marked with 'Z'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGAiwkfIHbg

[aim120]

Originally Posted by iTNerd

Mate, here is a video taken from a drone where a Russian Z armour firing on a civilian cyclist during their stay in Bucha. Now, don't tell me those were Ukrainian tanks marked with 'Z'

So the videos shows the cycle person, he gets down before the intersection and then after a few minutes, a apc firing. No proof that it was firing at the cyclist or some one else. We also don't know what events took place before this event.

Also remember this, say a person in a corner of a street was firing at the russians and then retreats, say later on a civilian is passing buy the same corner. Chances are he will get shot. It happened in Iraq and Afghanistan by US forces. Several videos are there in various documentary.

If a sniper is in a building and a civilians is taking a peek from the window, chances are he will be shot at. This is where high tech optics help in determining whether a person is a civilian or a threat.

Russian forces sadly have poor equipment like scopes. Their APC all have soviet era scopes. Even the drone footage from their orlan UAV looks like a old NTSC broadcast. Where they lag behind even the Indian military which has lot of western hardware like night vision, optics etc.

In a earlier video a month back a BTR type apc fired at car, unfortunately it had 2 civilians. This all happens in split second, typically in urban combat.

Why did they fire at a car? Because they use civilians cars , dhl vans, ambulances to move atgm and Ukraine military with no identification markings.

When russia uses buses it will have identification markings, thats not the case with ukraines military who use civilians buildings, cars.

A person holding a trigger has a split second decisions either he gets killed or he gets to kill.

Remember there are videos of civilians driving next to a russian convoy and throwing molotov cocktails in early stages of this war at Russian convoy, they didn't return fire.
We have civilians stopping by russian forces asking why they stopped, they said they ran out of fuel. Did they shoot the civilians.

But like I said, investigation should be necessary to find out the truth. If russians did kill civilians knowingly and then one should call them out for that.

Remember kyle rittenhouse trail, I watched every single bit of the trail. You should see the circumstances in which he fired. MSM was painting him as a white nationalist terrorist and what not. He was found not guilty on all counts.

Also ukraine forces have captured several russian tanks, apcs, AA etc. So a hollywood style false flag is entirely possible.

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by SnS_12

Meanwhile this is what is developing in US at the moment

No one in US takes Tucker Carlson seriously, except for the far right minority who are also Q followers. Please find other more credible sources of information.

[SnS_12]

Originally Posted by amitoj

No one in US takes Tucker Carlson seriously, except for the far right minority who are also Q followers. Please find other more credible sources of information.

Well then its time they start taking him seriously unless they are still convinced that inflation is transitory and that inflation and doubling of gas prices is actually good for the economy just like Hunter Biden's laptop content is Russian disinformation which was outsold by the likes of CNN and others.. These guys are definitely more credible sources of (dis)information

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by SnS_12

Well then its time they start taking him seriously unless they are still convinced that inflation is transitory and that inflation and doubling of gas prices is actually good for the economy just like Hunter Biden's laptop content is Russian disinformation which was outsold by the likes of CNN and others.. These guys are definitely more credible sources of (dis)information

Those are Fox News talking points. Contrary to what you've been sold, both CNN and Fox News are now beyond their sell-by date here and no one takes them seriously because their narrative changes with changing political scene. For example, even registered Republicans dont believe in the Hunter Biden laptop story. I know because I live in a Republican majority state.

[SnS_12]

Originally Posted by amitoj

Those are Fox News talking points.

Could be, but do you see any merit in these points is the Q? Biden is not doing anything meaningful about tackling inflation and at best is actually making the situation far worst with his actions. Also, if Trump had been involved instead of Biden you think the media wouldn't have pounced on this story? They are the ones who sold it to their citizens that this was a Russian disinformation and are still not ready to speak the truth even after the contents in the laptop have been verified.

[iTNerd]

Originally Posted by aim120

So the videos shows the cycle person, he gets down before the intersection and then after a few minutes, a apc firing. No proof that it was firing at the cyclist or some one else. We also don't know what events took place before this event.

The proofs are all there to see with plain eyes, unless you want to counter that in the intersection, the civilian cyclist tried to attack the Russian peacekeepers with his deadly cycle and hence he/she was shot with canons from BMP1 and BMP2's. The way they hit with indiscriminate fire on anything that moves in Bucha tells you the desperate mindset of a demoralized army after taking too much loss.

Even commercial satellite images taken during the Russian occupation of Bucha shows the corpses lying on the roads and that itself should be enough to see through what actually happened. Another video with more indepth on the aftermath of the cyclist -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z9gcV00bMo