[thanixravindran]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

Another "Respected" and Global News Source:

@Foxbat - Thanks for bringing this out.
Oh, good ol' BBC Auntie! Gone are the days people believed BBC news as 'Gospel of Truth' (I was one among them for several years). I recently read how BBC actively used to participate in message exchange even in 1950s. In 1953, in the Iranian coup, it seems BBC Persian service has started the news broadcast with 'It is now exactly Midnight' than the usual 'It is now Midnight here in London' to signal Shah to fire the Prime Minister and flee in the name of tour.

Now on the topic, there is a particular line in the second report "Even as Westerns volunteers are joining the fight in Ukraine, for which they can expect to be paid the same as their Ukrainian counterparts" And then crying 'mercenaries' are joining Russian side.

This has all the imprints of the same spin/narrative with respect to Chemical/Biological weapons. When bio-research labs are found, it was immediately spun as 'greater danger' if it falls in Russian hands. Then it was changed to Russia planning to use Chemical weapons. Now, this.

All of this points that the war is increasingly going towards increased civilian casualties. Hope this will be avoided by both the sides.

@ vishnurp99 - Thanks for the article. Please permit me to use this to show another subtle example for 'narrative' from Reuters. Please see how Reuters has bring in the end about "white minority rule" phrase into this (which all over the world is apartheid one of the darkest chapters of history) news. And read the next line, "For this reason it is eyed with suspicion in the west" with a message to its masters that we are ready to swing opinion, if needed.

@ Darkfantasy - I feel Propaganda is a strong word to use for the posts in these forum. I don't have anything to say on your post as enough has been said on these many pages in this thread. But if you want an example of propaganda, please check whether the above instances will fit the description.

[dragracer567]

This thread has gotten way too serious (even for one discussing on a war), so here’s something to lighten up the mood.

PS those who are military buffs will notice this is actually an IAF Chinook not a NATO one but hey, it’s a joke!

[Thebat]

Some observations regarding the ongoing war from my end -

1)The real loser at the end of the war is neither Russia nor Ukraine its going to be the USA.

2)Their priced Petro-dollar monopoly is going to end sooner rather than later with Saudi accepting Yuan as a currency to supply oil and Russia is accepting our INR to supply oil.

3)More countries would be wary of being overtly dependant of American tech. More and more countries would try to develop indigenous technologies mainly in the payments space to make themselves self relaint in case of an eventuality.

4)The image of USA as a world leader has been severely dented post Afganistan and now Ukraine.

5)China might emerge as an alternative by providing alternative technology and services to Russia and anyone else wanting to move away from the USA.

Ultimately I feel the American hegemony is going to end pretty fast, maybe within the decade with maybe the BRIC countries taking center stage in pushing the world economy further.

[NH08]

USA tried its 'best' to stop the Russian invasion.

[nitkel]

Originally Posted by NH08

USA tried its 'best' to stop the Russian invasion.

Let's not trivialize this war and the thread please. We have Reddit for that!

[dragracer567]

Lets see how long Russia can sustain this war, this is offcourse a war of attrition - the kind Russia is particularly good at waging.

I can't help feel that the Russian economy could've followed a different path if wasn't trying to mimic the USSR.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAMz5kgb7V4

[NiInJa]

Originally Posted by darkfantasy

The amount of pro-Russian propaganda on these pages is just nauseating. The United States did not start this particular war.

The counter arguments for this post will be found in the earlier pages to this thread. As another post mentioned, this is getting cyclical now

There is a very important line mentioned in Hindu scriptures that I read few years back, not sure if it was the Upanishads or Ramayan or Mahabharata, but goes like this:

Your actions affect the entire universe, it may or may not affect you personally, not in this life, but it will affect the generations that come later, it may affect your close ones, or people completely unrelated to you, it might not affect the environment you live in, but may affect the environment which you cannot see with your eyes. So, let your actions be driven by wisdom.

The whole point of this debate here is to understand as many perspectives as we can and find the truth, this process involves going back in time and tracing such actions by leaders of the world. As a result, there will be some posts that may appear as 'pro-Russian' or 'pro-American' and hence nauseating to some, but if that helps in finding the truth and get the whole picture, we should accept them like consuming bitter pills in our quest of finding the truth, which is obscured and difficult to find in these times.

War is bad, no doubt about it, but if we don't find the real reasons as to why we arrived at this point where innocent civilians are killed, and at least acknowledge that some past actions -of people/country who are on the right side today- were wrong, then we won't learn anything from this war as well. The cycle will continue.

Okay, enough preaching

[download2live]

A nice read on the history of the Financial Sanctions.
Link

And the double standards.
Wash

[fhdowntheline]

Whatever be the outcome of this unfortunate event, I have learnt one thing-never to take one side of the narrative as the gospel truth. The concerted effort by the western media to brand the other side is really dangerous and forces one to really ponder about the hegemony of these media giants. I am glad that this is being called out in India for what it is.

[mygodbole]

The whole point of this debate here is to understand as many perspectives as we can and find the truth, this process involves going back in time and tracing such actions by leaders of the world. As a result, there will be some posts that may appear as 'pro-Russian' or 'pro-American' and hence nauseating to some, but if that helps in finding the truth and get the whole picture, we should accept them like consuming bitter pills in our quest of finding the truth

Yikes, story told to me by my grandmother was of a camel and a human in a tent.
(For those not aware: The story goes like this): The camel could speak in human terms. During a severe sandstorm, it asked the human if it could hide its nose in the human's tent for the night. By morning, the human was out of the tent, with a lot of sand up his/her/their nostrils and the camel was snug like bug in a rug inside the tent. (End of story)
Reality: Nato, in the eyes of Russia, is the camel, so having heeded the aforementioned story, Moscow responds.
News is perception and point of view is personal. I 'see' my left arm rise, you stand in front and 'see' my 'right' arm rjse. Perception.
There is no right/wrong/otherwise. There are only interests ... that allows India to purchase cheap crude from Russia (shipping shall be a nightmare) to relieve price pressure at the pump in Pune/Guwahati/Chennai/Srinagar.
Yes, there are casualties in any conflict.
My compatriot in Ukraine is dead. I mourn him.
Yes, over 20,000 Indians have been evacuated safely.
Yes, India is likely to get cheap crude.
Yes, West will not or cannot sanction India at the moment since the West needs India to build (or is it 'rebuild') bridges between Moscow and Washington.
Yes, we are being 'heard' on the world stage. And the voices we hear 'demand' we 'sanction' Moscow. And smartly enough, India's Ministry of External (remember: External) Affairs is agile enough to sidestep above-mentioned voices.
India wants and seeks dialogue between adversaries ... from the 'mythical' Mahabharata and Bhagwat Gita to the stance in Afghanistan. (If I venture further into recent history, all those evacuations during the Arab Spring a decade ago)
But we have a serious problem on our northern frontier. India has a/n (another/second?) inimical neighbour that has threatened many of its own neighbours ... except the 'bear' to their own north.
Now that the Panda and the Bear are not 'inimical', India needs to figure out a path ahead.
I am not an analyst. I hope the officials of the central government can figure out a way where Indians get cheaper petrol/diesel/gas and the world keeps spinning in its axis.
And I don't remember who said: "All your life's experiences have prepared you for this ... all the challenges you have overcome have prepared you for this ... you are better prepared to deal with any problem that life throws at you, than any time before ... " And then Putin sent his military forces in to Ukraine.
We shall/will find our own way onwards.
So, mitron ('mes amies' for the uninitiated), pro-what shall we all collectively be?

[deetee]

For those who are claiming to be nauseated by anything that sheds some warm light on Russia, remember this: Putin leads Russia but Russia is not all about Putin nor Russia as a nation itself is bad. Same is the case with US. The US government has blood on its hands but US as a nation is different. Every nation has dissent and consent inside it. There is criticism from among US citizens about their govt involvement into Ukriane affairs and conducting those biological labs. But their mainstream media doesn't give a voice to that, instead it beats the drum of the govt propaganda. Same is the case with Russian media. There can be lot of people in Russia who opposes this war. But what we get projected is their govt ideology only. If you are someone who takes media information by the face value then you can get nauseated. But if you can read between lines, take information from various sources , build up your own logical views - verify them against history, then these views in this thread will seem so much more balanced.

[das_ren_auto]

Originally Posted by JithinR

For members on this forum (who tend to be educated upper middle class Indians and hence not really people I would call Idiots) I am afraid that atleast some of them are A-Ok with civilian casualties just because they see it as a snub to the western powers.

This forum is also a reflection of the society and no different. Sweeping statements about the "social class" doesn't gel with the spirit of this forum. And this is just a discussion where everyone can echo their views based on their cognitive ability.

[SnS_12]

All that members are saying and pointing at that how can the West raise their peace flag and demonise Russia for attacking Ukraine now, when no other country did that for the West. No sanctions no nothing for destroying countries and millions of lives which is also happening in Ukraine in the name of Russia by supplying arms and not actually trying to stop it as its good business and they want their rival nation Russia to get destroyed too in the process and the world should turn against them because they stood up to challenge their dominance. This is what US did with India too when we wanted to have nuclear weapons as a deterrent when our friendly neighbour had them before us. If we never stood up we could have been another Ukraine long time back.

This is what many members are saying but just like the West the conversation is been turned to by saying that you’re supporting killing of civilians by Putin and his Russia. Why should the conversation always be in favour of US and against Russia when both are killing civilians by their actions? And does US has any moral standing to even say or do anything considering their actions till date.

For them all War is just good business even if its at other expense and they have ZERO care for human life in general even if its their own.

[Gansan]

Originally Posted by JithinR

For members on this forum (who tend to be educated upper middle class Indians and hence not really people I would call Idiots) I am afraid that atleast some of them are A-Ok with civilian casualties just because they see it as a snub to the western powers.

That implies the upper middle class and higher can't be idiots and those below can. Please remember there are super idiots in the highest levels of society and brilliant sane individuals in the lowest stratas of society in all countries.

As for civilian casualties, they are inevitable in any war. Can't be helped. Remember it was the Americans who were dismissive about civilian casualties starting from the Iraq invasion if I remember right. They even invented the term "collateral damage".

[JithinR]

Originally Posted by Gansan

That implies the upper middle class and higher can't be idiots and those below can. Please remember there are super idiots in the highest levels of society and brilliant sane individuals in the lowest stratas of society in all countries.

As for civilian casualties, they are inevitable in any war. Can't be helped. Remember it was the Americans who were dismissive about civilian casualties starting from the Iraq invasion if I remember right. They even invented the term "collateral damage".

I will respond to your last paragraph first. I have already registered my disgust at the Americans government murdering civilians in conflict zones and using the term collateral damage to brush it off. Unfortunately, I can't copy paste or link my previous posts every time I post.

Also, as far as I understand it some efforts at creating humanitarian corridors to avoid civilian casualties have been thwarted simply because the Russians start shelling such corridors within minutes of people using them. Yes, some members consider this as western propaganda and believe that the Ukrainians are shelling their own citizens...that is not something I can help with.

Unfortunately, in my hurry to submit that post I didn't realise that using the word 'Idiots' would influence the meaning of my post (at least I should have been smart enough to understand that people would latch onto that one word and ignore the rest of the post).

Rest assured that I don't see a correlation between people social class and their cognitive ability. What I simply meant that for a lot of people who consume and form their view points these days from social media it might simply seem that Russia is the aggrieved party and has the full right to launch a pre-emptive attack on its sovereign neighbour.

They would also think that western countries don't have the moral right/authority to punish Russia simply because of multiple invasions and coups they have committed over the years.

The thing is I actually agree with this line of thought but only for their government. An American government has no right to preach to the world about moral values but I don't extend that to American citizens.

Just as I know that while the Indian government need to look after the interests of its own country/citizens (which is also why I support our stand at the UN) I dont get why Indian citizens would shy away from denouncing any war regardless of whether it's committed by Americans/British/Russian etc.

Originally Posted by das_ren_auto

This forum is also a reflection of the society and no different. Sweeping statements about the "social class" doesn't gel with the spirit of this forum...

Now coming to the part about our forum members, yes I realise that not everyone here would be upper middle class ..again that was a mistake I committed trying to submit that post quickly.

What I mean is that members here who I think would have more knowledge of history would already know that ultimately this war is only going to benefit a certain group of people (whether it's the American government with their defence contractor buddies) or Putin or China I don't know yet.

But the end result would be multiple civilian casualties for what could have been avoided. Despite this I get the feeling from some members here that they are ok with children/women/men dying simply because they have been waiting for someone to beat down the west.

Again please note that I didn't say all members neither do I think that any post that explains the Russian perspective for this war automatically makes the person who posted it someone who supports civilian deaths. Despite what a lot of members think this thread is more Pro Russian than any other form of social media that I am a part off..so any post that tilts the other side will feel Pro American.

Edit: Think I will ask the mods to remove certain words from that post because it allows people to ignore my main point (that we shouldn't be ok with civilian casualties just because the west is getting a taste of its own medicine) but I don't think that will matter because multiple members have already assumed I am Pro American and that I have fallen to Western propaganda without realising that I don't support any war.