[DonHyd]

Originally Posted by Amrik Singh

The dilemma of Russia can be visualized if we in India, imagine a scenario.
China firmly based in Sri Lanka, Pakistan backed by China poking India and Nepal (already growing resentment against. India) & Bangladesh siding China !!
How safe would we feel in India ? Same is with Russia. Not just losing allies, but allies joining foes. Cannot foresee its end.

And the suffering of public - we all know, since ages, in the game of Chess, ordinary Pawns are sacrificed to protect the Powers.

Russia and India are not same. Russia has enough indigenous weapons that can destroy the whole world leave alone US or NATO whereas India is dependent on imports. Let us assume that NATO establishes bases in Ukraine right next to the border. So what? Russia has second strike capability and no country can invade it and go home to sleep.

[EV NXT]

Please note: Killing people in Iraq, Vietnam and Syria are not considered war crimes.

[sierrabravo98]

Perhaps the western populace (and those influenced by the west here in India and around the world) are not educated enough about how popular Putin really is among the Russian population. Relying on publications like NYT, WaPo etc. to gauge his popularity (and then come to a conclusion that a coup can be organized in Russia) would be similar to relying on the The Wire/Scroll and other similar publications to gauge the popularity of the present Indian Prime Minister. You couldn't be more removed from the ground realities.

Hence, in the context of the above, it is a very dangerous game that these elites of the Western society (politicians, celebrities etc.) are playing by advocating for personal harm on the Russian President. Vladimir Putin is the Russian President. An attack on him personally will not be considered any different from a nuclear strike in Moscow. The thought process of an average Russian can be aptly summarised by the words of a famous Russian politician, "What is the point of a world without Russia". Russians are as peace loving as any other person in the world. But the delusional liberals of the West should not be misled by their equally delusional representatives into believing that they would be unharmed if some idiotic American decision maker actually follows Lindsey Graham's line of thinking.

[m8002?]

Originally Posted by sierrabravo98

Perhaps the western populace (and those influenced by the west here in India and around the world) are not educated enough about how popular Putin really is among the Russian population. Relying on publications like NYT, WaPo etc. to gauge his popularity (and then come to a conclusion that a coup can be organized in Russia) would be similar to relying on the The Wire/Scroll and other similar publications to gauge the popularity of the present Indian Prime Minister. You couldn't be more removed from the ground realities.

Care to explain why this popular leader of the people is going about jailing, poisoning and killing anyone who opposes him? . There is only one leader in North Korea as well...doesnt mean the people love him.

I have a few people in my team in NA who are from Russia and Ukraine and the Russians are very much against this war. There are protests ( to whatever extent this loving leader allows ) in multiple cities with people wearing green bands against the war. Maybe these are organized by the "anti-nationals" of Russia.

[SnS_12]

Originally Posted by sierrabravo98

Perhaps the western populace (and those influenced by the west here in India and around the world) are not educated enough about how popular Putin really is among the Russian population. Relying on publications like NYT, WaPo etc

Even in Israel he is very popular as the Red Army defeated Hitler. The Israel population in general hate Ukrainian’s as they killed a lot of Jews during the war. Hence, lot of countries are perplexed to see Israel not supporting US 100% on the Ukraine issue as the US is trying to sign a nuclear deal with Iran which Israel doesn’t want and they need Russia to keep a check on Iran in Syria.

Another country to look out for is Saudi which is not in good terms with US thanks to the treatment towards MBS and refusal of Biden to meet him and also the US took the Houthi group from the terrorist list who are targeting Saudi with drone attacks and are supported by Iran.

Oil rich nations like Saudi and Russia can cause a lot of damage to US and still the West things they are greater than anyone and they are the world, when 60% of the world population is in Asia and the world's two most populated countries, China and India, together constitute about 36% of the world's population.

So the highest Oil producers and Oil consumers are coming together against the West. Its only a matter of time that Germany and France will realise staying on which side makes better business sense.

Originally Posted by DonHyd

Let us assume that NATO establishes bases in Ukraine right next to the border. So what? Russia has second strike capability and no country can invade it and go home to sleep.

A US Hypersonic missile or missiles placed on Ukraine as part of NATO can hit Moscow in 5 mins. So imagine Russia’s situation with all the countries who they share border with and become a NATO member. They won’t even have time to react and hit back at US.

P.s - The western media made a run from Russia as soon as Putin put a 15 year jail term for publishing Fake News against its army

[vishnurp99]

Originally Posted by DonHyd

Russia and India are not same. Russia has enough indigenous weapons that can destroy the whole world leave alone US or NATO whereas India is dependent on imports. Let us assume that NATO establishes bases in Ukraine right next to the border. So what? Russia has second strike capability and no country can invade it and go home to sleep.

Based on my limited understanding of anti-missile curtains and high school physics, there is a huge advantage in having an anti-missile system close to the location of launch. You will be able to detect the launch sooner, probably have multiple waves of anti-missile projectiles to block the fired missiles before it actually reaches the destination in USA. You are also much better placed to deliver a first strike if ever the need arises.

From a layman's perspective, I think the black sea coast has been Achille's heel for the Russians. Moscow depends on the Black Sea for access to the Mediterranean and beyond, both for military operations outside its immediate neighborhood and for exports of Russia’s main commodity (hydrocarbons). The current Ukraine move seems to be aimed at expanding the frontiers of the Russian influence to Dnieper river. The river becomes an easily defended target and a buffer zone between the West and Russia. Russia's strategic calculus on this is widely known and there has been discussion about this for last 6-7 years. A highly militarized ukraine with nuclear weapons or even highly potent conventional weapons would have made this calculus redundant. So the Russian move was widely expected by most people who were following geopolitics purely from their core interest perspective.

Having said that most experts never thought that Putin would have the guts to do this. Why would somebody risk his entire regime and life ( a so called dictator) against an alliance of powerful countries with strong economies and might armies? Maybe he has really gone mad or maybe he counts on support of India & China. I don't know.

NATO's attempt has been to minimize the deterrence ability of the Russians and their commercial engagement with the Europeans and Chinese. They used Ukraine as their pawn knowing clearly that Ukraine was not a core interest where NATO ( American & UK) soldiers will be send in to fight & die.

Before the war started, my sympathies were with the west on this. Having seen the west's conduct and reading up on the issues at stake, I am starting to have really mixed opinions on this. One has to think about the geopolitical implications of this move by the west to funnel arms and mercenaries to Ukrainians and create a resistance there. The move to weaponise economics and media/social media is deeply disturbing.

Financial sanctions will put a disproportionate cost on large highly populous countries like India , China, Indonesia etc which imports a lot of oil , wheat, palladium etc. even though we have nothing to gain from either Russia or USA winning in Ukraine.

Also We have to keep in mind that a lot of these cross-country computer infrastructure like Swift is controlled by a very small set of elites in some of the western countries. What if they are used against an India in 10 years from now? Tomorrow if China or America starts sending in small arms/anti missile weaponry & trained mercenaries to all kind of rebel groups in POK to foster an insurgency in India, how would we feel? This essentially means that the sovereignity of countries other than the US and some partners may be severely compromised without them having to ever get boots on the ground.

I wanted to share this article which was quite informative. This was written before the war too.
https://carnegieendowment.org/2021/0...-sea-pub-84549

[Bhupesh_2628]

Western media have very strong network & reach around the world. Majority of people follow them blindly & therefore, all of them are ill-informed about the history & reality/core issue. All you see is stories against Russia be it in news, Twitter, YouTube etc.

Tremendous support from people across the globe - all of them unaware of the history - no research done by them to understand what’s right/wrong. There are very very few people who are well aware of the history but they get easily outnumbered by videos, posts favoring the West.

Mr. Putin is a very well-spoken individual who talks about reality & its straight, to the point. No dodging of questions in interviews. To be honest, there are very few people at his level who can speak like him. He even answers some illogical questions (having little sense) put up by Western journalists. Many of Putin’s questions and concerns go unanswered for ‘years’.

Watch his few interviews & you’ll know what I mean to say. Then only you’ll know the core underlying problem behind this major incident happening right now & who is to be blamed for all this.

Don’t watch interviews from the Western media - they are very little & few and hardly covered by them.

I’m not taking any sides. Just wanted to convey people to always read history, do little research to actually know the root cause.

[fhdowntheline]

Its interesting that one leader is branded a dictator because he is not democratically elected in the conventional multi-party system, whereas so-called established democracies have sought alliances with dictators and kings, with blatant disregard for their "human rights" records. Jailing, poisoning political adversaries is a covert operation that even established "democracies" resort to. They just brand it differently like "enemy of the state" for example, make super slick spy movies and convince the world that they are the saviors of mankind. I think our country's context, apart from individual opinions which every one is entitled to, one must not get swayed by the current rash of propaganda, and trust the strategic and tactical judgements of the leadership.

[sierrabravo98]

Originally Posted by m8002?

Care to explain why this popular leader of the people is going about jailing, poisoning and killing anyone who opposes him? . There is only one leader in North Korea as well...doesnt mean the people love him.

I have a few people in my team in NA who are from Russia and Ukraine and the Russians are very much against this war. There are protests ( to whatever extent this loving leader allows ) in multiple cities with people wearing green bands against the war. Maybe these are organized by the "anti-nationals" of Russia.

I don't intend any personal offense but they say "Birds of a feather flock together". The Russians I have interacted with love and respect President Putin. Perhaps the adage applies to both of us. Hence, the people in YOUR team are a representation of the same. About the protests, ALL the people of a country can never have the same opinion on a subject. You, as an Indian, ought to be more aware about this truth than people of most other Western democracies. The majority view is the one which is ultimately carried forward. Cribbing about this universal truth would not make it any less real.

P.S: About the assassinations, "Saam/Daam/Dand/Bhedh" are instruments of statecraft. They have been in use for millennias. Sure, Putin may be guilty of all the things you accused him of. The leaders of the so-called "FREE-WORLD" are guilty of much worse. Give me a call (or PM) the day Nixon/Bush/Blair/Obama/Biden/Reagan/Trump are paraded before the ICC. Oops, I forgot, the shining beacon of the free world (USA for those who don't like sarcastic riddles) sanctioned the ICC (sanctions have been lifted after the desired message was sent).

[vishnurp99]

Originally Posted by m8002?

I have a few people in my team in NA who are from Russia and Ukraine and the Russians are very much against this war. There are protests ( to whatever extent this loving leader allows ) in multiple cities with people wearing green bands against the war. Maybe these are organized by the "anti-nationals" of Russia.

Food for thought : If you are in the NA where the media is demonizing Putin as the sole instigator of the war and villain against all humanity and prominent politicians are calling for measures like assassination, How will an ethnic Russian-American or an immigrant (somebody who is in maybe a technical or a management job and not really an activist) dare put a point of view that's even partly different from the American POV?

[m8002?]

Originally Posted by vishnurp99

Food for thought : If you are in the NA where the media is demonizing Putin as the sole instigator of the war and villain against all humanity and prominent politicians are calling for measures like assassination, How will an ethnic Russian-American or an immigrant (somebody who is in maybe a technical or a management job and not really an activist) dare put a point of view that's even partly different from the American POV?

This is the information they are getting from their immediate family in Russia. Many of them are people who have migrated recently to NA on work visas. They have parents, brothers, sisters, cousins still in Russia.

[vishnurp99]

Originally Posted by m8002?

This is the information they are getting from their immediate family in Russia. Many of them are people who have migrated recently to NA on work visas. They have parents, brothers, sisters, cousins still in Russia.

Originally Posted by Old_Salt

My current job involves meeting / dealing with multi nationalities. Last week meeting some of our Ukrainian colleagues really left me speechless.

Most of their families have fled and moved towards Moldova and Romania.

During the discussion, it was evident that they were unhappy with Mr. Zelensky.

The whole western media portrayal of civilians being given guns has also not gone down well with the local population. The local crimes are through the roof and western media is not reporting them. Criminal elements are using those guns for crime and not against Russians.

In my opinion, the work visas would make them even more insecure around voicing out their opinions in favor of Putin in a predominantly partisan office which is being driven into a frenzy through the media in NA.

I am just saying that you cannot take that as representative of the general sentiment. Couple of pages back, another gentleman had posted about having Ukranian colleagues (people who are currently in Ukraine). They were upset with Zelensky's comments and the fact that guns are being given to the general population. He was complaining about how the guns were used for crimes etc. So there are different perspectives even in this thread.

Once you give guns to your general population in an unrestricted manner, then that place becomes ungovernable in my opinion. We have seen this in Afghanistan, Iraq, Srilanka, parts of Pakistan etc. People will have all kinds of grievances and now they have the means to settle it among themselves.

[dragracer567]

An interesting post from a connection based in Russia. We tend to forget, Russian civilians are affected by this as well!

I was born in Russia. My family is in Russia, some of my friends are in Ukraine. In the cities, that are currently under attack.

Yesterday I came across an opinion "if majority of Russians are against war, they would've done something". This sweet naivety made me burst into laughter. Which is, in fact, incredibly sad.

If you don't like something in Finland, you go to a strike or the protest. Then you go home, back to your family, drink coffee and watch TV. In the best case, your protest makes some things change. In the worst, it doesn't.

If you don't like something in Russia, you go to a protest. You get arrested (and often beaten up badly in the process), tortured by the police, thrown to jail. In jail, your human rights are nearly non-existent. I spare you the details. For organizing or participating in protests you can sometimes get heavier jail sentence than for murder or rape. Even better, if you make it to the "extremist" category (which is fairly easy actually) - you are officially a state enemy. You aren't really a human to the state anymore.

Yesterday there were large protests against war in Ukraine. Nearly 2000 people were arrested in Russian cities. People, who are very well aware of what would happen to them, still went outside to show empathy and support for Ukraine, to express the sorrow and fury about the war. People, who are still hoping to change something in a hopeless country like Russia.

My point is - do not get an impression that Russians sit quietly and approve dictator's actions while their neighbor is being slaughtered. Right now the nation does not have power. Dictator has. Most of the nation struggles with survival, being in the state of poverty. Those who dare to oppose those in power, disappear under mysterious (or not so) circumstances.

That said, I am not asking for sympathy. After all, it's not my home or my family who's being under attack right now, forced to sleep in a subway. And all above said does not justify or try to justify the aggression. All I'm trying to do is explain that NOBODY in their right mind supports this war.

WE DO NOT WANT WAR.
WE CONDEMN WAR.

Don't get fooled by the fact that Russia presents itself as a European country. Don't think that human life matters to the corrupted machine that will chew it up and spit out a bloody wreck.

Don't be naive.


UPD. This post has gained much more attention than I expected. It's even a bit scary. I'm limiting the comments, as I can't keep up with them, but I want to thank you all for valuable input and support

[m8002?]

Originally Posted by vishnurp99

In my opinion, the work visas would make them even more insecure around voicing out their opinions in favor of Putin in a predominantly partisan office which is being driven into a frenzy through the media in NA.

I am just saying that you cannot take that as representative of the general sentiment. Couple of pages back, another gentleman had posted about having Ukranian colleagues (people who are currently in Ukraine). They were upset with Zelensky's comments and the fact that guns are being given to the general population. He was complaining about how the guns were used for crimes etc. So there are different perspectives even in this thread.

Once you give guns to your general population in an unrestricted manner, then that place becomes ungovernable in my opinion. We have seen this in Afghanistan, Iraq, Srilanka, parts of Pakistan etc. People will have all kinds of grievances and now they have the means to settle it among themselves.

This is exactly what I am also suggesting. Making the guns talk is wrong. But there seem to be people here who are perfectly fine with Russian guns shouting.

No where I have mentioned that the Western world are saints. But folks assume that since I said Putin is wrong, I am all for the west. Its not Russia did not play the geopolitical game ( of propaganda, covert support, money etc,etc ) as good/bad as the West. Russia lost and that doesnt give them the divine right to attack Ukraine.

To me its like this : You woo and propose to a girl in your street. The "Romeo" from the next street also does the same but he wins her over. That doesnt give you any right to barge into her home and assault her and her family. The next street romeo's character here is immaterial to your act.

[Aravind_M92]

From my understanding Russia might be a huge country, but it quite low on daily requirements resources and has to import the necessities in return for the fuel it exports. That does mean, Russia requires fertile lands to meet their agricultural needs. When the Soviet union was a single large entity, which engulfed entire of Northern parts of Asia with a few European countries, they were kind of self sufficient with minimal needs for food imports. While all those poor countries, read Tajikistan, Kazakhstan, Armenia, Belarus and Georgia who were more of a liability for Russia at time of annexation and were let go of from the clutches.

Russia had particular interest for Ukraine as they had the industrial capabilities and strategic placement for trade and resources. Ukraine has Antonov design bureau which was a part of Russian aircraft consortium including Tupelov and Yalkelov and many others. Also Ukraine has strong weapons development industries and infirmary, which was a key regard for Americans and the so called 'NATO'. The 'west' wanted to take over Ukraine and break all the weapons and aircraft development deals with Russia weakening a link in their development. But Putin being Putin, understood all this and didn't want to loose the ties with Ukraine. The war was initiated after NATO tried taking control and Ukraine was applying to be a part of European Union. This kind of enraged Putin and he went ballistic on Ukraine. Putin in quite volatile and adamant with his decisions and doesn't want to loose Ukraine to NATO, which might be just the beginning of such acquisitions. Further if NATO does get stronger in Asia, Chinese might get more prominent in Asia. Please do note China is kept under control by the Russian and Indian armies.

If the check is lost, China will in no time shake hands with NATO and USA ( Trump might be chauvinistic patriot, but he sure didn't want to be a part of this ordeal and pushed away from such happenings). Further, NATO isn't intervening on Ukraine's issue as Russian forces haven't been weakened to an extent that they have a chance to overthrow the Russian Army. Russia is pushing other former Soviet union countries for participation in the ongoing war as well and trying to keep them under check to not join NATO. Hopefully no nuclear weapons are catered to in this war. Ultimately the sole reason for acquisition is lost if the country is deemed radioactive.
The real gripe is for the Third World counties dependent on military supplies from both these superpowers. Most of the Asia third world countries have supplies from Russia and and South American from USA. If in case any alliance is formed, the third world countries will be in a stiff on whom to join with. No participation will also be a negative impact on the neutral countries post any major war if it happens. Back in the earlier world wars, most of the counties were a colony of some European nation and had to be a part of the war. But now that all counties have gained independence, this is not bound to happen.


I happened to hear from a few people who've returned from Ukraine in this war ridden state. I was shocked to note that their main concerns were not 'being alive'. And rather the concerns were ' proper food wasn't provided, washroom facilities were sub par, no electricity in the arranged transport' and many stuffs like that which bewildered me. For goodness sake you've been extracted out of a war zone! And there are people holding on to their dear lives. And all they're concerned in food and toilet availabilities. I do remember the Iraq issue in 2014 where the nurses were rescued and upon return to India, they were thankful for the operation and we're happy to have returned alive and safe and their conditions were far too worse than in Ukraine currently. Infact I felt this was more like a publicity than a proper operation. I do thank and commend all the personnel involved in Operation Ganga.
Please do excuse me if I sound insensitive but this here is my honest opinion on this crisis. Also do correct me, if there's any mistake in my opinion.