[anupamsinha]

Originally Posted by mvadg

I have multiple issues with this guy's mindset.

1. Don't complain about the government's attitude and actions?
2. Accept things as they are and be grateful to the government gods.
3. Preaching
4. No attempt to accept that the bureaucrats did not do their jobs properly.

We have to remember that these students are barely in their 20s. Expect them to be irresponsible and clueless. Would any layperson know what to do in a crisis?

Government officials in the MEA are supposedly experts in their subjects and should have an authoritative approach. I see many posts making excuses for their inaction and incompetence. Not only that, they've actually blamed the students for being students. Let's remember that these MEA officials are not spending money from their own pockets or from any leaders' personal funds, this is our money, and we expect accountability; oh, another thing, please don't forget that these employees of the government are paid to handle such situations and they have failed at their jobs. I would like to know the names of the people behind this fiasco and what action was taken against them for failing at their job.

Of course we should criticize wherever needed.

However this was clearly uncalled for. Advisories were there for people to leave. It seems like some people expect that MEA knows before hand that if Russia will invade and if it does, when it will. I however would agree they are the ones to be looking at the situation closely and forewarn. However in some situations there is a limit to how early you can forewarn.

The two main reasons I think why students didn't come back are that are
1. They would be missing their classes.
2. It would had been an avoidable expenditure if there's no war.

To be fair both seem like a valid concern.

However now that the war has happened these concerns become invalid. Jaan hain to Jahan hain.

Not blaming students. I might have done the same. However in that case I would not have blamed the government because I decided to stay put.

I expect them to be rational enough that, they should understand that Indian armed forces can not simply go their and rescue Indian nationals.

What kind of authoritative actions were you expecting. MEA can now also only send advisories. Why did you expect them to track every Indian there and bring them back forcibly.


As said before I think that the government is handling it way better than any other government would have handled. This is huge success and Kudos to the government to get this done.

[McLaren Rulez]

Originally Posted by Gaur

On return he was interviewed by NDTV and was praising the govt. support received (don't know if its appropriate to say but he doesn't belong to the Majority community, now please take your guess).

Why would it matter what community he belongs to? Please do help me understand what you're trying to hint at.

Glad to hear that government rescued a fellow Indian citizen - well done to them for that.

[Gaur]

Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez

Why would it matter what community he belongs to? Please do help me understand what you're trying to hint at.

Glad to hear that government rescued a fellow Indian citizen - well done to them for that.

My bad, should have clarified it earlier.

My intention was just to take away any doubts on bias of opinion of the person rescued, he/she may not belong to the community traditionally favoring the current dispensation in-fact otherwise, but still praises the evacuation effort.

Would also like to clarify, i am not exactly sure in which ways the Govt. supported them apart from the flight back from Hungary but overall message i got was that they were supportive.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by thanixravindran

In my reading of history, this is only partially true at least in case of Germany.

When you say something is partial, it hints that there is an absolute. But there isn't. You have to judge from the results, do Japanese/Germans feel bitter about post WW-II treatment of them. Not really. They integrated into the western side almost wholeheartedly. Having grown up during cold war, reading cold war novels, I really was doubtful when berlin wall came down. Like most people I thought the East Germany would drag West Germany down, but that didn't happen.

Originally Posted by thanixravindran

I have not read much about Japanese reparations but I know it is a sensitive topic in Korea and China who still think Japan got away too easily from the WW2 atrocities.

Japan was let off after the Tokyo trials punished a whole bunch of people from Imperial army and government. The emperor was allowed to stay after he renounced divinity. Japan was no more headed by a god. That was considered punishment enough. It allowed Japan to heal and grow up. Paying Punitive damages to cover what they did in Korea/China would have replayed Versailles treaty all over again.

If you can, punish the leadership who waged the war, but don't punish the nation and it's citizens. That is the mantra they followed after WW-II. However, if the leadership cannot be punished without impacting the citizens, then let it go. In case of Iraq, Iran or Russia, the west tried to punish the leaders while severely impacting the citizens.

[das_ren_auto]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Hint - Khruschev & Kennedy together sorted out the Cuban missile crises. But the readings usually portray it as a great victory for the West. The crises was started by USA to begin with!!! Your statement below tells me their propaganda was effective.

+1
Actually Soviets dictated the terms for removing missiles from Cuba and US had to commit that they will never ever attack Cuba. A word they are forced to keep till now

[lapis_lazuli]

Just a thought : not going into right and wrong by the MEA/government etc. when some of us say, evacuation or rescue is happening from tax payers money, we should remember, the students parents have also paid taxes, directly and indirectly. Probably way more than the national resources they consume, and way higher than the air fare per seat basis.

They are equally entitled to whatever "benefits" or "services" the government can provide, under extreme duress!

When we claim car insurance, we never say "my car is getting repaired by all the responsible insurance payers money", we are quick to point out how much insurance "I paid".

Taxes, yes, they become a national pool : no more mine or his, after the contribution has been made. Whether the evacuee is a student, gardener, expat engineer, medical tourist, diplomat or a person of different political ideology who refuses to hail the PMs name, as long as he is a bonafide Indian citizen, he expects diplomatic influence to increase his chances of survival in hostile territory.

So let us not look at it like an undue favour being asked by the parents., IMHO.

[RGK]

Originally Posted by Gaur

The govt. B.T.W should minimize its P.R, really disliked the handing of the roses and chanting of names of the P.M, guys get the work done and leave.

Individuals, not the government or the media, shot the footage. It is exploited by the respective political party. Evacuating people in these circumstances is a difficult task, and no one should make a comment about it.

[das_ren_auto]

Originally Posted by Samurai

In case of Iraq, Iran or Russia, the west tried to punish the leaders while severely impacting the citizens.

I feel Yugoslavia should find a place in that list. West conspired to destroy them and with out any legality they indiscriminately bombed the wonderful city of Belgrade. They were portraying Milosevic as a barbaric warlord who has butchered thousands. Despite a long trial, the charges against Milosevic was not proved and he died in custody (rather killed by denying proper treatment). NATO is not a holy cow and a bipolar world is required to balance it.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by das_ren_auto

I feel Yugoslavia should find a place in that list. West conspired to destroy them and with out any legality they indiscriminately bombed the wonderful city of Belgrade. They were portraying Milosevic as a barbaric warlord who has butchered thousands. Despite a long trial, the charges against Milosevic was not proved and he died in custody (rather killed by denying proper treatment). NATO is not a holy cow and a bipolar world is required to balance it.

What happened in Yugoslavia is well known. The west didn’t “portray” Milosevic as a barbaric warlord, that’s exactly who he was! Let’s please not get into denialism just for bashing the west.

Also, agree that NATO is not a holy cow but their mistake in Yugoslavia was not intervening sooner to prevent a genocide! If we are denying this, we might just as well deny everything else we learnt from history.

There are plenty of examples of how the west messed up like Iraq or the interventions in Latin America, so let’s please not trivialise the actions of people like Milošević just to bash the west.

I still can’t get around the fact that we are discussing western hypocrisy in this thread (which I generally agree with) instead of the fact that Putin just invaded a sovereign nation to fulfil his irredentist fantasies. One does not justify the other!

[thanixravindran]

Originally Posted by Samurai

When you say something is partial, it hints that there is an absolute. But there isn't. You have to judge from the results, do Japanese/Germans feel bitter about post WW-II treatment of them. Not really. They integrated into the western side almost wholeheartedly. Having grown up during cold war, reading cold war novels, I really was doubtful when berlin wall came down. Like most people I thought the East Germany would drag West Germany down, but that didn't happen.

Japan was let off after the Tokyo trials punished a whole bunch of people from Imperial army and government. The emperor was allowed to stay after he renounced divinity. Japan was no more headed by a god. That was considered punishment enough. It allowed Japan to heal and grow up. Paying Punitive damages to cover what they did in Korea/China would have replayed Versailles treaty all over again.

If you can, punish the leadership who waged the war, but don't punish the nation and it's citizens. That is the mantra they followed after WW-II. However, if the leadership cannot be punished without impacting the citizens, then let it go. In case of Iraq, Iran or Russia, the west tried to punish the leaders while severely impacting the citizens.

Samurai - I did not intend to tell what you wrote is half truth. Yes the results are there to see. I just pointed out there were indeed politicians (after all who does not have domestic audience) promoting harsh sanctions as well initially at the end of World War and within few years the rise of Soviets made sure they are abandoned for good. This sentiment was quite high in Europe than US naturally.

I personally feel there are few leaders who shine like FDR but do not have high regard for Churchill in these aspects. It is a pity that FDR died just at the wrong time and Truman came but was compensated by the presence of Atlee. And the first German chancellor (don't remember his name) has handled the West German integration and recovery brilliantly despite having to deal with Truman, Churchill, CDG and Stalin.

[Amrik Singh]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

the fact that Putin just invaded a sovereign nation to fulfil his irredentist fantasies. One does not justify the other!

Fantasy ? Is he not trying to restrict Ukraine join NATO and let US and allies bring their bases right at his door step ?
Or that I may be wrong !

[das_ren_auto]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

What happened in Yugoslavia is well known. The west didn’t “portray” Milosevic as a barbaric warlord, that’s exactly who he was! Let’s please not get into denialism just for bashing the west.

Also, agree that NATO is not a holy cow but their mistake in Yugoslavia was not intervening sooner to prevent a genocide! If we are denying this, we might just as well deny everything else we learnt from history.

It would be great if you could share details of proven charges against Milosevic.
I am not a Milosevic fanboy but just cited it as an example of how NATO found reason to destroy Yugoslavia. Just like "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq.
Also the attack on Belgrade was not sanctioned by UN and hence illegal.
Why NATO is so keen to surround Russia. The so called sovereign Ukraine is just a puppet dancing to the tune of NATO and they themselves are responsible for this destruction. The real business behind this is that Russia is providing gas at around one tenth of price (of what US is offering) to Europe. US cannot compete here in business terms and hence there is no other way to end this other than by isolating Russia. Ukraine is just a play ground.

[JithinR]

Originally Posted by Amrik Singh

Fantasy ? Is he not trying to restrict Ukraine join NATO and let US and allies bring their bases right at his door step ?
Or that I may be wrong !

Why do people keep saying that Putin attacked because he doesn't want Ukraine joining NATO? Isn't one of Putins demands that NATO turn back the clock to 1997 and actually remove western allied troops and infrastructure from all countries that have joined NATO since 1997.

Source: Why is Russia invading Ukraine and what does Putin want?

He has not only demanded that Ukraine never join Nato but that the alliance turns the clock back to 1997 and reverses its eastward expansion. He has complained Russia has "nowhere further to retreat to - do they think we'll just sit idly by?".

He wants Nato to remove its forces and military infrastructure from member states that joined the alliance from 1997 and not to deploy "strike weapons near Russia's borders". That means Central Europe, Eastern Europe and the Baltics.

But this goes beyond Nato. In the words of Germany's chancellor, Russia's leader "wants to take over Europe according to his world view".

Or maybe I am wrong?

[fhdowntheline]

WION's Palki Sharma is known for her sharp and forthright commentary. What she has shown below is outrageous, but not surprising. The more this drags on, the more it will expose the underbelly of those who claim high moral ground on liberal values, democracy and human rights. Please watch this video all the way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBRwmTVVKQk

Some more commentary on the same:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgHQknJnuRk

[justwheels]

Well in all honesty, global politics is much more than what is in the media. And also it is a reality that media that we read/listen has a lot of western influence. Now obviously that has nothing to do with justifying Russia's invasion on Ukraine, because any act of war can never be justified.

The issue Putin has is that although the cold war days have long gone, the west has very nicely cocooned Russia with military establishments under the name of NATO and that is troubling Putin. Ukraine joining NATO will be the last nail in the coffin and having NATO arms right at his border is unacceptable to him. Now you could argue against but quite rightly so because west is not NATO'fying the borders just for fun. This is arm twisting capability that they need. Geo politics is all about regional influence on security, trade and resources.

Putin, unjustifiably though, possibly thought that attacking Ukraine would derail that cocoon and make a big statment to West. He always knew sanctions will happen. Realistically, western influence on today's society is way more than Russian influence so most vantage points are from a singular view. Alas, in this geo political arm twisting, the common Ukrainian is suffering.