[DigitalOne]

Those who are criticizing the government evacuation response have probably never participated in even a planned fire drill in a building.

For those armchair critics, I would say, please organize one in your society this weekend - cut off internet, power beforehand, block couple of staircases, let in a few unknown outsiders (with guns, if possible).

And then please come and comment.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by SnS_12

Putin has been humiliated by the West for the past two decades and he has been planning his move since 2014 to destroy the financial weapons of the West and make it a level playing field.

Not Putin... we need to separate Putin from Russia. Let's remember why WW-II happened. When WW-I ended, the winners humiliated Germany by putting very harsh terms as part of Treaty of Versailles. It created the fertile environment in Germany for Nazi party and Hitler to rise to power, leading directly to WW-II.

Therefore, when WW-II ended, the Allied powers took care not to repeat the same mistakes. Instead they helped Germany and Japan rejoin rest of the world with honour. I guess they did that because most of them had personally witnessed what unfolded when Germany was humiliated.

However, when USSR was dissolved in 1991, the lessons from WW-I were totally forgotten by the Western powers. So they repeated the mistake by keeping NATO alive and started cornering Russia, which is still the 2nd most powerful military in the world. Russia wanted to join NATO, but they were kept out while inviting other former Warsaw pact nations. You humiliate a proud and very powerful country, it will lead to rise of dictators. It happened with Hitler, and now with Putin.

While Putin is a villain, the other side is not full of angels either. So India should do what is in the best interest of India and not get fooled or forced by the simpleminded "If you are not with us, you are against us" narrative pushed by the west.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by joe1980

As of now the fire has been put off, but the question remains if this is a strategic move my Russia to attack power producing units to cut off Ukrainian cities from electricity so that they surrender.

Possibly to damage Ukraine economically/energy wise and to possibly force them to shut it down? That plant generates nearly half of Ukraine's electricity. May be Russia's way of scaring NATO using the Nuclear option without using nuclear weapons.

[fhdowntheline]

This is like a game of chess being played, which this region is an expert at. I don't think (rank non-military man speaking here) that Russia's onslaught has been slowed down by Ukraine's resistance as much as the other side may claim. Surely there are some losses, but apparently not causing much concern. There seems to be a deliberate move to conduct certain advances, wait for the response (military and political), assess and then take the next step. The western media expected a blitzkrieg of sorts. The nuclear plant strike of today could have happened on day-1 or 2 if needed. I have read somewhere that Russia is really not engaging its air force capability much, which is also baffling the western experts.
Sometimes I wonder if they are in effect testing NATO's resolve not to enter into a military conflict of sorts, by raising the threshold every now and then.

[SnS_12]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Not Putin... we need to separate Putin from Russia.

While I understand your reasoning of what Russia as a country has been going through over the decades, I was just trying to put more emphasize on the relations with the West when he came into power in 2000.

Bush got elected just after a few months after Putin and they seemed to start off on a positive note. When the 9/11 attacks happened Putin was one of the past leaders to support US against terrorism. But the US angered Putin when they agreed to the enlargement of NATO and subsequently Russia objected to America's invasion of Iraq. Similarly with Obama coming to power they hinted at a reset of relationship with Russia in his first term and everything went downhill again in his second term just like Bush.

If you see it was only under Trump that relation with Russia were actually improving and the focus was on the common enemy China. Hence, Trump said since 2000 he is the only president under whose watch Russia never invaded another country because they were never pushed to do so.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

I have read somewhere that Russia is really not engaging its air force capability much, which is also baffling the western experts.

It is mostly because armies of Ukraine and Russia use similar equipment and it is not easy to identify friendlies from the air that too in poor visibility and weather conditions.

Russians have marked their vehicles with "invasion" markings to distinguish them from Ukrainian vehicles and to prevent friendly fire incidents. But for a ground attack pilot flying low in a Su-25 or Su-24 in areas where the contact lines blur, it is not easy to identify who is friendly and who is not. Also, Ukrainian SAM and AAA units remain active and that has led to confirmed losses of Russian Su-25s and Mi-24/Ka-52/Mi-17 helicopters in Ukraine.

Unlike in Syria, RuAF/RuN jets are not firing laser or TV guided munitions when attacking Ukrainian armor and are relying on rockets and dumb bombs to attack them. Unlike Syria, weather and visibility is poor in Ukraine. Also, unlike Syria, there are AAA and SAM units active in Ukraine. May be poor visibility, bad weather and positive identification of the target before weapons release are factors at play and that is why the RuAF is not being fully committed to the theater of operations.

Maj Gen Andrei Sukhovetsky Is The Highest Ranking Russian Fatality In Its War With Ukraine Yet

A high-ranking Russian general has been killed during fighting in Ukraine, in what experts say will be a bitter blow for Russian leader Vladimir Putin.

Major General Andrei Sukhovetsky was the commanding general of the Russian 7th Airborne Division and a deputy commander of the 41st Combined Arms Army, and by far the most senior Russian figure to have died in the conflict so far.

A military source said Maj Gen Sukhovetsky had been killed by a sniper.

Maj Gen Sukhovetsky’s death, which was confirmed by a local officers’ organisation in the Krasnodar region in southern Russia, will be seen as another sign Mr Putin’s war effort is not going to plan.

He was a respected paratrooper, practised in missions in “hostile territory”, and reportedly had been decorated for his role in the annexation of Crimea.

Sergey Chipilev, a deputy of the Combat Brotherhood Russian veterans group, wrote on social media: “With great pain, we learned the tragic news of the death of our friend, Major General Andrey Sukhovetsky, on the territory of Ukraine during the special operation. We express our deepest condolences to his family.”

Russian newspaper Pravda, which also reported his death, said Mr Sukhovetsky graduated from the Ryazan Higher Airborne Command School in 1995, having started as a platoon commander before rising to chief of staff of the Guards airborne assault unit.

Christo Grozev, executive director of investigative journalism website Bellingcat, tweeted that confirmation of his death would be a “major demotivator” for the Russian army.

Russia claims 498 of its soldiers have been killed in Ukraine and another 1,597 have been wounded.

However, British officials say the actual number of those killed and wounded will almost certainly be considerably higher and will continue to rise.

[vivek95]

Originally Posted by DigitalOne

Those who are criticizing the government evacuation response have probably never participated in even a planned fire drill in a building.

For those armchair critics, I would say, please organize one in your society this weekend - cut off internet, power beforehand, block couple of staircases, let in a few unknown outsiders (with guns, if possible).

And then please come and comment.

I second you. Year 2019 I was actively leading from the front (infact the only Doctor on board ) when we had to evacuate 8 ICU patients from a hospital that was severely flooded due to heavy rains in Kalyan, Mumbai. A small scale operation. It was at night 11pm with heavy rains and pitch dark everywhere. 3 patients were on ventilator. Outside the hospital, the water level was nose deep for a 6 feet person. We evacuated the patients in a boat turn by turn and had to travel 1 to 1.2 km in the deep floods till the point where ambulance was placed at an elevation. We lost one critical patient on the way as he became pulseless and I could not initiate Cardiopulmonary resuscitation as it would have toppled the boat and 6 of my team members were at risk. Prior consents helped us save from any legal issues. Rest all patients were transferred successfully. Evacuation is certainly not an easy job. Flooding is nothing when compared to a war zone.

Surely there could have been many lapses on the Indian Govt's part but totally downplaying the entire operation is not done in my honest opinion. I mean atleast thank those people who were directly involved in the operation if not politicians or bureaucrats. Go ahead and criticise the Indian Govt or Embassy vehemently but not one word of gratitude for coming back alive ?? Too much to ask for ??

[skanchan95]

Wreck of the An-225 Mriya - a very sad sight

[anupamsinha]

Originally Posted by ABHI_1512

The above pictures were from the Twitter handle of Indian Embassy in Ukraine and is in public domain. Feel free to make your own judgement in whether the students were wrong in waiting for concrete advisories which finally came on 22nd February regarding the confirmation of online classes. A medical student who has gone abroad for studying would not want to hamper the only cause or at least that’s what I feel.

I do agree that when someone(specially someone from India or where this amounts to lot of expenditure) spends so much money to go abroad and study they would not be willing to come back because of a perceived threat of war.

However everyone was aware of the threat of war. Atleast they should have been. Embassy also doesn't knows before hand when the war will happen or if it will happen or not. However they would be in a better position. Hence the 22nd Feb 2022 notice So if they issue a statement that everyone should come back and no war takes place then again they will be hearing from others. So it is a lose lose game for them going by this logic.

The point is most of the individuals are mature enough to make a decision what should be done. Majority decided to stay. Now when you decide to stay you can not demand that the government sends help in a war zone to rescue you.

As for the PR the students are free to express their displeasure when they have been brought back at tax payers money and they still have the right to express displeasure. However the government which made all this possible should not even say anything.

I sympathize with the families of people stuck over there. However I feel enough prior info was provided and the government is still doing what it can to rescue. The people who have been rescued should be ashamed of themselves that they were helped and then also they are not recognising the efforts by the government.

[Gaur]

My friends brother in law just returned from Ukraine yesterday, friend was regularly InTouch with him and MEA/embassy officials as required (we all know if your BIL's life is at stake yours is as well )

B.T.W his story, they had sensed something could go wrong, also embassy officials when contacted would unofficially advice them to leave if they could, however the university insisted all is well, probably business interests, few of his friends who left earlier were mocked as well.

My friend's BIL eventually booked a flight on 23rd Feb scheduled for 25th only that Mr. Putin thought 24th was a good date to start the invasion.

Stuck now near Kyiv, 200 of them arranged and boarded a bus to Hungary on advice of the embassy officials to be evacuated by Airforce plane to Delhi from where he travelled to his hometown.

On return he was interviewed by NDTV and was praising the govt. support received.

Now when we say the govt. didn't act in advance do we mean to say that they knew about the 24th feb attack date and purposely delayed in issuing the advisory ?

Many of my extended family members are in the defense forces and have heard them say many times "first casualty in case of a war is your plan no matter how good its on paper" everything in a armed conflict is dynamic its just about holding your nerves and remaining alive,

we can keep on talking about what's right/wrong/could have been done better but the people on the ground know it better then us.

The govt. B.T.W should minimize its P.R, really disliked the handing of the roses and chanting of names of the P.M, guys get the work done and leave.

[vikispeaks]

Most of my ideas or opinions regarding this has been framed from going through all the data points shared here in this thread. What amazes me is the wide spectrum of thought processes that we as humans go through when faced with a crisis even if it's in-direct.

The base Idea behind why Russia is doing what it is doing now is well established but to see it through only the lens of NATO and the US might be not the right approach IMHO.

If anyone is starting to look into this issue from a fresh perspective and just want to explore how this as an issue, is something that has been brewing for the past century might want to have a look at the below video in length if possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=If61b...l=RealLifeLore

Not many of us grasp the stand of Non-Alignment that came to fruition and the importance it has played in the safe state of modern Europe and the modern world as a whole. I think it wouldn't be wrong to go one up and say if not for Nehru, Nasser and Tito the idea of what the EU can be today will not exist.

While on a personal front, it's morally very hard to support the stand the Government of India has taken one must understand that this is the right thing to do Ethically.

The only issue I see on some statements made in this thread is that, while the Government themselves have a responsibility towards their nation's interest and their nationals interest while making a decision, our individual opinions can afford to have the humane factor of discussing this crisis while not reducing to name-calling.

Be it the Students or the Government or for that sake the entirety of Europe, no one is or was prepared for this. It's a shock event and everyone and every system need time to adapt. Hopefully, we as a community of Individuals can react better to events than the over-hyped media reporting this (for lack of better words)Shit-storm of an event.

PS: Protecting the Interest of the Citizens of India (grateful/ungrateful), wherever they are across the Globe is a statuary responsibility of the Government of India. And we as members of this forum share our Opinions on what is right and wrong while sitting in the reasonable comfort of our home country every single person who is being evacuated from a War-torn nation is allowed to have an opinion of how their dear life could have been saved better. Let's allow people their vent out without calling them names. That's the least we could do after whatever they might have gone through.

[thanixravindran]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Therefore, when WW-II ended, the Allied powers took care not to repeat the same mistakes. Instead they helped Germany and Japan rejoin rest of the world with honour. I guess they did that because most of them had personally witnessed what unfolded when Germany was humiliated.

In my reading of history, this is only partially true at least in case of Germany. The equivalent of Versailles treaty of WW1 is the Potsdam conference in WW2. The reparations are not only in the form of money but includes everything else - Territorial, Industrial assets, Forced labor among the main ones. Lot of those severe terms were watered down after the rise of Soviet in the first 5 to 10 years of WW2.

To compensate Poland which lost significant territory to Russia, Germany has to give its eastern territories and there was huge transfer of German population to Poland and Soviet as forced labor from the occupied regions of Third Reich. Small pieces of territories also were lost like Kaliningrad to Soviets. To make things worse, Saarland was given to France. Apart from the territory lost to Poland and Soviet, they got most of them back including east Germany. German reunification itself is a huge event in the history of Germany. UK was strongly opposed to the reunification of Germany. When Berlin wall fell, the remark by an exhausted Thatcher was - "Even after defeating them in two wars within a century, they are again back in the table much stronger".

Germany was again demilitarized at the end of WW2, it took a period of 5 years to get its military and it took them full ten years to get its full fledged military. This was done by Truman in his second term after the Soviet atomic test and Korean war realizing that Soviets will soon achieve Nuclear parity. Even then, initially there were plans that German Military will be under the command of other European nations but did not materialize.

One of the another hawkish plan presented to FDR is to make Germany as 'Agricultural' country and destroy its Industrial dominance permanently. As you told wiser sense prevailed and the rapid expansion of Soviet Industrial base, this was not done and Industrial base was only marginally reduced and it formed the basis for calculation that how long it will take Germany to start paying reparations.

I have not read much about Japanese reparations but I know it is a sensitive topic in Korea and China who still think Japan got away too easily from the WW2 atrocities. My personal opinion is Japan will be 'fully' rearmed by US in the next decade to counter the Chinese hegemony. I thought the renunciation of its pacifist constitution will happen with Abe itself but since he is not around, it may be pushed a bit late.

[maddy42]

A few good mens final scene is apt here.

Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know; that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, *saves lives*. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a *damn* what you think you are entitled to!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FnO3igOkOk

The world is not all sunshine and rainbows. When two brothers cannot see eye to eye when property or money is involved how would someone expect two world superpowers to just stay quiet when threatened.

Ukraine was led down the rosy path by EU and US and managed to get dirt on its face. Now the world has to sit and watch with baited breath on when this will end.

Lastly the students who came back with our tax payer sponsored rupees, please be happy your alive. This is not the time for politics when you messed up and cared to not listed.

Maddy

[careind]

I am surprised at the ramblings here which makes one wonder whether 90% of the people even understand what a war or warlike situation is. People are complaining that advisory did not "reach" people. Amidst a war going?
Come on people, war literally MEANS casualty. No diplomacy is going to work during a war. you have to put 10 additional fellow indians at risk, who were completely at no risk, to save the 50 who are already at risk. That should be really calculated.
Imagine if the Indian emabssy sent out a communication to quit Ukraine immediately on, say, Feb 14th ( As some one beautifully sent all the communications chronologically ) and the war had not happened??!! This same troop of keyboard warriors would have done a volta face and told "a lot of student's aspirations and future were stalled by a hasty decision". Seems like projecting one's value onto the current affairs and trying to score points.
We need to understand that the people on the ground would always have a MUCH better risk perception that the embassy officials who have to work under a framework.
I choose to stay for saving my career or property and then when I am stuck in a hole, I want the government to risk fellow indian lives to get me out of the hole , and abusing them in the process, smacks of my selfishness.
During these times of conflicts between different countries, the other governments wouldnt have a clue of what would happen and have to tread carefully. The threat perspective would also differ based on nationality and the strength it carries in the international arena.
Most of the comments seem to be petulant and judged. I , or you, just do not have any idea about how things work in those levels and so any comments would be immature and ignorant.
Let the students who have returned vent their dissatisfaction based on the ordeals , let the bureaucrats celebrate for their perceived success. They at least have a locus standi for that. What have we? Other than the whatsapp knowledge and the agenda based media news that we get???
Maintaining decorum based on the sensitivity without passing value judgements based on agenda based bits and pieces of news seems to be the best way to go forward.

[yosbert]

https://scheerpost.com/2022/02/24/he...-war-foretold/

This article tries to put some historical context to the current conflict and is worth a read for anyone trying to understand the situation. Just quoting a few points to ponder

The full-throated cries for war, echoed shamelessly by the press, are justified by draining the conflict of historical context, by elevating ourselves as the saviors and whoever we oppose, from Saddam Hussein to Putin, as the new Nazi leader.

The tragedy is that there was never any dispute about how the conflagration would start.