[samm]

Originally Posted by ABHI_1512

All this while, I thought innocent human lives have values. Now I realise they don’t. Also, the basic notion that I understood from the thread- no matter what you do, it’s the one who provokes is the culprit and that’s why Putin is a hero who is out to protect his country from enemies.

Welcome to reality! More power and deep pockets, you are always right. Say what you like, do what you like. Redraw the lines of values, what's right and what's wrong. No rules apply, or they can be changed as you wish. Global phenomenon.

Originally Posted by ABHI_1512

Just that I thought this forum to be little different from the other online forums, my bad !!

Cool..cool...

[volkman10]

Originally Posted by Neil Roy

War is death, war is destruction. In this day and age when diplomacy could have solved the issues, here we are now looking at war real time in our TVs as perverted voyeurs and posting opinions citing our interpretations of history. Meanwhile in Ukraine, women and children are being exposed to the consequences of bombing every day. It's easy for us keyboard warriors to take sides, but if the shoe were on the other foot and we were at the receiving end of the pointed gun and the inevitability of death, would we still be posting opinions?---

Very aptly put it, Neil.

[ajay0612]

Originally Posted by thanixravindran

Rather, I found this thread has all types of posts - Supporting Ukraine, Supporting USA, Supporting Russia, Analyzing the reasons, Tracing the historical imbalances and fault lines, Geo politics, India's stance - Support and oppose, excellent historical references as well real time information of the news as it happens in the ground. May be, I see what I wanted to See.

That is of concern. Having so many posts in favor of invader of a democratic country (just based on imaginary threat perceptions) is a cause of concern. It speaks volumes about our ethics, culture and education.

If I have to think philosophically, humans 'value' lives only till the need or greed takes over. This is not new but happening since time immemorial. If not, we would not have 'moved up the primitive ladder' from stone ages.

Live and let live. That is not that difficult. Any action which is not pro-life, pro-creation is questionable.
.

.

[vivek95]

Originally Posted by volkman10

Indian students slam 'gutless' govt for offering roses instead of support in Ukraine

So that arrogant idiot is asking what will he do of that rose ?? Had Indian Govt. not undertaken all this risky herculean task of safely evacuating 18000 students, that rose, God forbid, would have been on his "grave" or not even on that if their luck was that worse. Sorry for being harsh, but the arrogance and thankless attitude of these students gets me on my nerves. How stupid of them to think that just by flying a tricolor flag on their bus, they could travel right through the middle of war zones and cross international borders Why didn't those students then simply walk their way through into Romania, Russia, Poland etc. with Indian flags in hand without waiting for the Indian Govt. to intervene ?? And they talk about "guts". They are learning medicine out there , can't expect this level of immaturity and arrogance given their age.

I would have never wanted to post on this thread as I have extremely less knowledge on geopolitics but for the arrogance of these students. Sigh !!

[SnS_12]

Originally Posted by ajay0612

That is of concern. Having so many posts in favor of invader of a democratic country (just based on imaginary threat perceptions) is a cause of concern.

If you try to make sense of the historical events from the past between US and Russia then you would realise they both consider the other its No.1 enemy.

Russia requested politely to US/NATO to not accept Ukraine as a member. But in the end the West put Russia in such a position where they couldn’t negotiate peace diplomatically and show they are in a position of weakness.

Strength respects strength as the West never attacked (except soft sanctions) Russia for attacking Ukraine. Now imagine what the West would’ve done if only Belarus on its own attacked Ukraine without the support of Russia and their reaction would haves been the opposite.

[mvadg]

Originally Posted by ABHI_1512

This thread has now turned into how USA is responsible for what Russia is doing to Ukraine and how Russia is so right while it invades a sovereign country. It’s appalling that the current invasion is being justified in the name of what US did in the past. So much so, that even human lives lost are a matter of debate and speculation !!
...

Just that I thought this forum to be little different from the other online forums, my bad !!

In spite of being a complete skeptic on any kind of news, I did believe that Putin was the culprit for starting the war. I was not too happy about India supporting Russia, and I still feel it is morally wrong to support any nation that starts a war.

However, after reading many of enlightening posts here, viewing the linked videos and articles and also doing some research on my own, it is very clear to me that nothing is black and white.

It's bad that Russia started the war, but Zelensky and the western nations are equally responsible for allowing it to escalate to this level. All sides are equally responsible for the carnage.

[PreludeSH]

I just hope India changes its stance to ask Russia to stop the attack first. Talks can follow and have them hurl abuses or whatever against each other.

Was looking into blogs on Ron Paul institute website and saw this
http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives...ulian-assange/

Not that we have to believe everything we come across online. But we need to piece together and decide how cunning, hypocrite every country is.

[ABHI_1512]

Originally Posted by Amrik Singh

Indian Students in Ukraine were flying high when advisories to evacuate were issued

Can you please mention the date on which this video was shot ??

And now regarding the advisories, some points that I would like to mention and for the perusal of members here who are name calling the students. Of course, my understanding is just as fickle as so many others here.

The first advisory from the Embassy in Ukraine which clearly states the term non essential to the advisory. For the students, I guess studies were essential unless otherwise stated by the universities which by then had not closed and shifted to online modes.



The below pictures of FAQ from the embassy, where the Indian nationals and students were asked to buy tickets for the return to India and that more flights would be arranged.





On 18th of February, embassy issued a circular mentioning the increase in the number of flights and the dates.



On 20th February, embassy issues a circular for all the Indian nationals and students to leave. There is still ambiguity about the flights since they are in high demand. Also, more flights were announced too.





Below is the most important part here where the embassy clearly mentions that large number of queries regarding confirmation of online classes have been pouring in and that the embassy is talking to respective universities and this on 22nd February and Indian nationals and students should leave the country without waiting for confirmation from the universities. This was the advisory where the embassy is clearly telling the students to not wait for the confirmation and to leave the country irrespective.



Next advisory tells all Indian nationals to stay put at their respective places. Air fares meanwhile have shot through the roof and many students and Indian nationals plead with the government to look after the airfares.



On 24th February, Ukraine closed its airspace and all the flights were cancelled. The embassy issues advisory to stay put. Series of advisories tells the Indian nationals to not move and stay as safe as possible since Martial law is at place.













The last advisory on March 2nd tells the Indian nationals to find vehicles and if not then to walk 11kms, 12kms and 16kms from Kharkiv to the respective safe places and that they should reach by 1800 Hrs local time. Yes, the Indian nationals were told to walk for those distances in a war zone with their belongings. This all, if only the advisories reached the people who were stranded since there were reports of internet shutdown as well.




The above pictures were from the Twitter handle of Indian Embassy in Ukraine and is in public domain. Feel free to make your own judgement in whether the students were wrong in waiting for concrete advisories which finally came on 22nd February regarding the confirmation of online classes. A medical student who has gone abroad for studying would not want to hamper the only cause or at least that’s what I feel.

Now something from what I got to hear from one of my friend who has got his relative stuck in Sumy. According to him no advisory has reached them and they are still stuck inside a bunker with acute shortage of food, water and medicines. Supply of food is heavily rationed and being provided every 2 days.

As of today, they are still stuck inside the bunker with no communication. Now, if that student or his friends who are stuck are somehow picked up and transported back to India, how many would want to be presented as trophies to be showcased by someone with a rose ??

Sometimes, thinking about the plight of the fellow Indians is not that bad. Before terming the students as shameless and what not, think of their families and the trauma they must have been through. I am not at all going into the PR exercise at all, hardly anything is left which has not been turned into a PR exercise anymore !!

[mvadg]

Originally Posted by vivek95

So that arrogant idiot is asking what will he do of that rose ?? Had Indian Govt. not undertaken all this risky herculean task of safely evacuating 18000 students, that rose, God forbid, would have been on his "grave" or not even on that if their luck was that worse...

Sorry, but I disagree.

There are are doctors like you who are risking their lives by being in contact with covid patients all day long, but there was no need for anyone to take on this "risky herculean task" if our bureaucrats had done their homework and acted proactively. Airlifting students from a safe airport is good, but our government officials kept a safe distance away from students in distress within Ukraine.

Apparently, this time the Indian government did not carry out the evacuation in a proactive manner as was done in 2014. I have not watched all the news about this crisis, but somewhere I caught a glimpse of some cheerleaders of the ruling party shouting praises of their leader among the evacuees, quite unprofessional and unethical in my view, especially after botching up (at least one student died, and quite a few injured) the operation. Students are still stuck in Ukraine, so it is too early to celebrate.

As for the student(s) showing their displeasure, it would be because of their experience with a deaf bureaucracy that did not come to their assistance. Did the government ask these students to rate their assistance? Do our bureaucrats and politicians show any humility, what makes them assume that they did a great job? That we are discussing this here means this student stated his opinion quite effectively.

Offering a rose, shouting slogans and ministers preaching in the midst this unpleasant experience is totally uncalled for and in bad taste.

I wonder if Russia deliberately misled India into delaying the evacuation.

[ajay0612]

Originally Posted by SnS_12

If you try to make sense of the historical events from the past between US and Russia then you would realise they both consider the other its No.1 enemy.

History has only one purpose. To understand and learn from it not to repeat the mistakes. Holding the grudges will only nurture hatred.

Russia requested politely to US/NATO to not accept Ukraine as a member. But in the end the West put Russia in such a position where they couldn’t negotiate peace diplomatically and show they are in a position of weakness.

Dictating to sovereign countries is demeaning. Exhibition of superiority is in fact due to inferiority complex.

Strength respects strength as the West never attacked (except soft sanctions) Russia for attacking Ukraine. Now imagine what the West would’ve done if only Belarus on its own attacked Ukraine without the support of Russia and their reaction would haves been the opposite.

Strength has no meaning if it can't protect the powerless from injustice. True leaders are rare, and Zelensky is one of them.

[Amrik Singh]

Originally Posted by ABHI_1512

Can you please mention the date

Date is immaterial when they are heard mocking the advisories. Although prior to full scale invasion, but under the clouds of war.

There is another statement doing round in which an evacuated student is grumbling of just one meal on board, that too Vegetarian. She claims to have been dropped at New Delhi with no further arrangements. I cannot vouch for the authenticity but some videos of thankless evacuees are surfacing. Supporting the current government is ones personal matter, but anyone criticising the evacuation is unacceptable.

[AjinkyaP]

Originally Posted by ABHI_1512

Sometimes, thinking about the plight of the fellow Indians is not that bad. Before terming the students as shameless and what not, think of their families and the trauma they must have been through. I am not at all going into the PR exercise at all, hardly anything is left which has not been turned into a PR exercise anymore !!

The amount of hate and mockery towards our own Indian students stuck in a war zone, just because they sought timely communication and accountability from the government and refused to be part of the PR exercises is sickening.

While our armed forces and admin staff is busy moving students back to India, in-flight, on-camera PR exercises are pukeworthy to say the least.

[vishnurp99]

Originally Posted by ajay0612

True leaders are rare, and Zelensky is one of them.

In my opinion, Zelensky is a great western leader no doubt. He has lead his country into a disastrous war and that he cannot win. The west will receive propaganda points no doubt but what does the average Ukranian receive from prolonging this effort? Why did he not take any action on the Minsk 1 & 2 agreements so far?

Why has he announced that men between 18-60 cannot leave the country and that they have to stay back and fight? Ideally that should be voluntary. There are ad-hoc reports in Russian and Chinese media that people who don't join the war effort are being summarily executed. Why has the ukrainian govt blocked citizens of other countries from leaving the country?

I think all of us are really influenced by the western media. US seems to be using the war to distract attention from their enormous internal divisions and problems. Democrats control most of the new entities in the USA. Let's not fall for that.

[NH08]

Some thoughts on this 'student evacuation saga'.

1. The Advisory - why on earth somebody who is well read needs an advisory from government about a danger which is, as they say 'Clear and Present Danger'? Did not they know that mighty Uncle Ruski had surrounded the borders of Ukraine? Everybody could see that risk of war at their doors was imminent.

2. An advisory is only meaningful when government knows something that citizens do not know and therefore, government should warn them. A good example is the advisory issued by government in August 2019, in J&K, to all tourists to vacate the valley. Nobody knew what was going to happen. And couple of days later, Article 370 was revoked. Here, in Ukraine, an advisory was really not needed. Everyone should have seen that danger.

3. Students clearly took the situation very casually. Some of them may be wanting to avoid the expensive air tickets available at that time. They exhibited carelessness and paid the price for that. (and we also, being the taxpayer).

[thanixravindran]

Originally Posted by ajay0612

That is of concern. Having so many posts in favor of invader of a democratic country (just based on imaginary threat perceptions) is a cause of concern. It speaks volumes about our ethics, culture and education.

Live and let live. That is not that difficult. Any action which is not pro-life, pro-creation is questionable.

You have every right to be concerned but at the same time there may have been others who were concerned about their own future. To each his own.

Live and Let live, sure is a Golden principle. However I will be practicing it only if I am sure it is reciprocated for my own survival.

On the topic of threat perception, waiting for first shot to be fired always may not be the best option. Each country will chose to act based on its own calculations.

If you have read about the highest battle field, Siachen glacier was militarized by our forces to preempt its taking over by our western neighbor. For a neutral person, it will appear militarization of an pristine environment and concerned about it. For Indian military planners, it is a great opportunity for defense. For our neighbor, it is tale of missed chance and will look for an opportunity to wrest it triggering more conflicts.