[Slickshift99]

Hello Bhpians, I hope you are safe and in the pink of your health during the covid19 times.

As a young school passout, a majority of us would have been through the dilemma of choosing between a college in India or overseas. Many factors have to be filtered through before making the best choice for oneself as an learning Individual.

Some Very IMPORTANT factors to consider before looking out for a College/University:-

1) The Subject you wish to persue
The subject of your choice is the most vital factor in determining the choice of college to opt for. Example- psychology/biotechnology won't take you anywhere great in India but are of immense value Overseas.

2)Monetary Factor:
Education fees differs like an ant to an elephant.One has to have a very financially well to do family to support your education overseas. In india where government college degrees can be extremely cheap, one may have to shell out about 30k $ per year (average) + miscellaneous costs of living abroad.

3) Quality of Education
University degrees in developed western countries are Top-Tier that include numerous research work, practical knowledge, real world applications etc. I am not sure about how would our Indian degrees fare in front of those (almost all universities give you a 4 year graduation course vs majority or Indian universities giving a 3 year course- exclude Btech/MBBS courses)

4) After degree plans
After degree plan has to play a vital role in the overall choice, if one wishes to settle abroad then the expensive foreign degree will surely be a big support for him, However if one wishes to return back and look for a government job. It doesn't look very fruitful.

I have been though the dilemma after my school days, studying in India. My younger brother looks forward to take a transfer from india to abroad in his 2nd year. Please give your valuable inputs , this thread might help many young Bhpians on-board.
Thank you.

[V.Narayan]

It all depends on your priorities and resources. I saw over half the 12th standard class mates of my children jump off overseas to do their undergrads mainly because they could afford it and they did not want to get into the grind of the Indian competitive landscape that stares you in the face after the 12th. If you plan to do undergrad in USA/UK/Australia/Canada - the usual suspects - then unless you have your own business to return to getting a job back in India is a challenge. Not impossible but a challenge. If settling overseas is the goal then it is less of an issue.

For all my kids the policy we followed was that they needed to do undergrad in India and sweat it through the Indian competitive grind. Then work here for a few years and then go overseas for post grad provided it is to a top University. Fortunately all crossed their hurdles.

Indian institutions are still more rote oriented. But the competition here is severe enough to sharpen you. In a top grade foreign institution { like the top 10 or 15} you'll find the same competition but not in ranking number 45 and {at least my experience} some outstanding teachers that just wow you.

You may also want to give a thought to the next 45+ years which is the period till 2065 - 2070 that your careers will span. Where will the future growth lie - India or Portugal? - giving an extreme example but it is worth dwelling upon.

Are you better off building a career through one path or the other - no. Your career over 4 to 5 decades will be influenced by thousands of factors and millions of bits of your own effort. Where you graduated from matters less and less later except for networking.

[aghate]

A very good topic and that has been trending from the past 10 years I believe and have seen increase in the number of students so far who wish to pursue this route. I say this from a 'Middle' class perspective who have the ambition to study abroad for their Master's Degree.

Some of the points I think of are based on the OP as below. Please note, these are the thoughts after observing my friends and relatives who have taken this approach. I have tried to summarize them from an Engineering perspective, especially Computer Science (or IT).

1) The Subject you wish to pursue
A thorough research on the topics with the combination of the University in the desired country. I have observed preference to be USA for obvious reasons followed by Canada and Australia. Personally, I would also check the Course Catalog offered by the Universities. A good University would boost the chances of getting a good job and a higher salary.

The same logic that I have observed within Pune. Getting an Engineering Degree from C.O.E.P. (Autonomous) vs other colleges makes a huge difference in the companies lining up for Campus interviews and the Monetary package on offer.

If there is a scope of pursuing the same Course/Degree in any of the Indian Universities and then pursue overseas track. This of course depends on whether one wishes to settle in India if you could get a higher salary. Money matters in the end.

2)Monetary Factor:
The Elephant in the room. Can I or my family afford the expenses of pursuing the Course overseas and the residential expenses? It is worth checking for Scholarships and applying for them. Saves a lot of money.

IMO one should get a job experience in India after their Graduation to get a feel for Corporate life. This would boost the individuals knowledge and give them an idea on what really is required in the real world. Also, this experience would help the individual in getting a job overseas once they complete their Masters there. Having a job experience is always better than having none, even though if it is for a year or couple of years. This helps in the individual getting an understanding of the 'value' of money and help them with some savings before they apply for overseas education.

3) Quality of Education
No debate here. The quality of education would definitely be better. I am not comparing this with the IITs and IIMs we have in India, these institutes have the top brains from India.

4) After degree plans
Does the individual wish to settle in the same country permanently post their Master's degree? This could be couple of years as well where one earns enough to clear the Educational Loans in India. I have heard success stories of individuals clearing their loans within two years.

The quality of life is also different overseas. Once, you have lived overseas for a few years you understand the pros and cons of living there. So far, in my acquaintances I have known of only one person who returned to India after a couple of years abroad. It is up to the individual really as there are many factors involved from both personal and professional perspective.

[Thermodynamics]

Few reasons I think of.

1. Education at home is getting tough/competitive and becoming increasingly expensive that some abroad opportunities are comparable w.r.t. costs.
2. We have a finite section of upper middle class who can afford a foreign education.
3. Minimum quality is guaranteed. No matter which university you pick in advanced countries, there is a minimum quality which is way above our average.
4. Lack of direct employment opportunities at home. How many of us have stayed in core field same as our graduation degree, hardly few. For most of us, it is about necessity. Getting some job is more important than what job. If you study abroad, there is a high probability that you would get opportunity to shine in your space and also explore the space you may desire to pursue.

Be it Sundar Pichai or Satya Nadella, they could pursue their dreams and achieve what they have because of opportunities available.

And the advanced countries happily invite it because, there is a lucrative economy that comes with it.

I am definitely worried about brain drain, one of the reasons why I came back and started working in home country. But I also have empathy for them, because they can grow well and in the process, pump handsome foreign exchange.

[Amrik Singh]

As Under-Grad, a student is required to study 4 Years (8 Semesters) to get Bachelors, which literally has no value to land up in a good job, unless Graduation is achieved - another 2 Years.
Now during 8 Semesters, either the family is rich enough to pay Tuition Fees + other expenses or is just on the border. In case the Family is affluent, most likely the household employs full time help at home > the student is not used to cooking and laundry etc. - a very bad scenario.
Besides, he/she is of very young age to be on his/her own in a distant land. Four years of Academics cost is worthless unless another 2 Years is added to it.

IMO, Bachelors level education must be achieved in India and for Masters, a reputed University would be fine. In the long run, the Bachelors degree or the University would be overshadowed by University one Graduates from.

That gives fair chance to pursue PhD and land in a respectable job. Chances of permanent immigration (if aimed for) increase manifold.

Education loan is easily available in India. If one avails this for Graduation level education, the student would land in a decent job in 2 years and would be able to pay off the loan comfortably as the expense would be for 4 semesters only.

[Sree]

Today's children especially boys don't have the mental strength or emotional maturity to go,stay and study bachelor's courses in a foreign country far from home. Too high risk IMHO.
On the other side, there's no point in doing masters and PhD in India, given the vast difference in standards.

[mmxylorider]

My nephew enrolled for his Btech at Manipal Jaipur. Three semesters later, he opted to continue his undergrad at Arizona State Univ. He got credit for 2 semesters but with the credit system and summer courses, he is actually going to complete his undergrad ahead of time compared to his India classmates.In addition, the masters degree is easier to get into at your alma mater.

Coming to the question, it is all about your interests and long term plans. Studying abroad exposes one to a different education system and a diverse set of people. It makes one independent and confident in making decisions. Millenials tend to think for next 3-4 years and that mindset is not conducive to career decisions.

Lastly - I believe it is not fair to compare from 1990s to now. It's a completely different ball game. Technology disruptions, innovations are much more now and that has to be part of the decision where it is more incubated.

[VKumar]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

For all my kids the policy ..... Fortunately all crossed their hurdles.

Same policy here sir, and it works quite well too. I, personally went through the same stage of 'first get it here, then go and repeat it there'. I secured admission to some well known institutions; but finally decided to stay back bear my parents, and face the cut throat competition; and it worked fine for me IMO.

That said, one of this siblings has recently graduated from CTU and managed to secure a decent job after a short internship over there. Same was for another one who was in Sweden.

Overall, what I have felt is that; the guys who go out there to study, they better be the ones brought up in a company of kind of hardcore elder brothers, they manage everything there really well, right from arranging stuff to building relations. A few guys I know who have always spent their time under daddy's umbrella, they mostly faced a few initial issues in adjustment. But overall, everyone got adapted quite well with time.

That said, the European ones still felt better to me than others. More peaceful (slight language based issues though), lesser unemployment, and lesser competition for a fresh graduate to go out and carefully shape the initial years of their career. What's your opinion sir?

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by VKumar

Same policy here sir, and it works quite well too. I, personally went through the same stage of 'first get it here, then go and repeat it there'. I secured admission to some well known institutions; but finally decided to stay back bear my parents, and face the cut throat competition; and it worked fine for me IMO.

That said, one of this siblings has recently graduated from CTU and managed to secure a decent job after a short internship over there. Same was for another one who was in Sweden.

I don't want to become an oldie goldie doling out advice to young upcoming people. But here is my life learning. The nature of my business with significant operations & employment in Europe, Dubai & India was such that I could have relocated to Dubai or the UK in a heartbeat without even changing my job. But if you are well settled in India, life in the West in its entirety is not necessarily superior except for municipal services. And the standard of living gap which was yawning in my youth is marginal at best now especially for folks like us. For some career opportunities are fantastic in the West but not for all. We only see the super successful few. But these are very personal decisions and there are no rights and wrong. For me being around to look after our four aged parents as they aged and some passed away was worth more than all the tax savings or cars Dubai or the UK could have given me.

The India USA bridge has only grown from a trickle in the late 1970s to a torrent today. Straddle that bridge. Be an international citizen who can live and work in both hemispheres.

Some members have written that the youth today aren't strong enough. That is bullocks. The Indian youth today as sharp, determined and intelligent as any one else. As you folks build your careers India will in 10 or 15 years become the third largest economy even by nominal GDP. The world is your oyster.

[Cessna182]

This is my first post on this forum
Many members have opined, and made valid points. I'd like to share my perspective after graduating from one of the best engineering colleges in India (hint: in Rajasthan) and then going to a very prestigious university abroad for a PhD.

1. Rankings like QS, Time Higher education etc. are not credible at all. The university I did my PhD from had to make "special arrangements" for the folks from these companies when they were doing their assessments. This is like a racket- they will threaten to give you bad scores unless you enlist them as consultants to "improve" your scores.

Just have a look at the criteria used for ranking.
International students, faculty are good for diversity, but why use them for ranking? India has so many states and the diversity in any good university class in India is as vibrant, or perhaps even better, than what I found outside. India cannot afford to hire foreign professors just to game the rankings.
Also, the employer reputation is an opaque metric. Almost anyone I meet in India, even today, has more respect for my undergraduate institution than the top ranked global university I did graduate studies in. But the QS rankings suggest otherwise.


Just one example- the university (top 10 globally in the latest rankings) I went to mentioned an average salary of over $150k for a year for the MBA program. I was surprised because many students whom I knew personally did not get a job, let alone that salary. Later I found out that the university management cited the salary of just a few graduates who got a job at a top tech company in a PM role, and extrapolated it to the entire batch. The rankings agency happily published this. This is not illegal, but it is unethical and universities do it to game the system.
If this were to happen at an IIM, imagine how critical our media would be about misrepresenting placement statistics.

2. Placement and Salary: The place I went to had engineering undergrads working for less than $40 k (~INR 32 lakhs) after taxes, a figure that is achievable across the top engineering campuses in India without adjusting for PPP. Very few students got jobs that gave them a $60k + salary. In India, you at least get a much, much better shot at a good job if you graduate from a good course.

Also, the selection process is never fair for foreigners. Unlike India you don't have a placement session here. Most companies will claim they are equal opportunity employers, but that's nonsense. Hiring managers usually have a strict no foreigner policy especially for Indian male engineers. They may tell you otherwise at a career fair though to prevent any litigations based on discrimination complaints.

3. Course content and learning: My views may be biased, but I had the opportunity to teach undergraduate courses as a graduate student. I do not see a lot of difference in the way the courses are structured abroad, vs. in India at least in my field. If anything, I felt we had better professors in India because teaching is a passion. You cannot make a good teacher by hiring a researcher and giving them a KPI to teach XYZ hours a month (most university admins do this, because research citations are used for the rankings, while teaching quality is not). I find it very amusing that people in India take so much pride in bashing our education system.
This system has produced some of the brightest minds and most prolific leaders in this generation. And yet we bash it.

4. Infrastructure and funding: This is the only area where my post graduate alma mater scores better. We had almost every research equipment we could imagine. The budget for the lab (one of the many in the department) I worked in was more than the budget for almost an department at a place like BITS Pilani.

In India, the industry and university liaison is not very well developed. That means that the government has ro do the heavy lifting, but they spare only 1% of the GDP for this. China invests much more every year into research initiatives, and this helps their professors collaborate and get the latest equipment etc.

If you calculate the research output per rupee invested, Indian scientists from the good colleges and institutes will outperform many countries.

Sadly, research funding has been drastically affected in recent years. To give you an example, my friend who is pursuing a masters degree at an IIT said that PhD research scholars at the IITs have been denied funding for attending any international conferences since 2018. This is ridiculous, and was not the case earlier. It is much tougher to get into a PhD program at an IIT vs. getting into an average program with full scholarship abroad. Yet, even a foreign born PhD scholar abroad has more networking and collaboration opportunities than the IIT research scholar.

5. Peer group: Now this is subjective. But even today, after so many years of industry and academia, the most dynamic, smart and successful people I know are from my undergraduate college. This may vary, but I feel that the stress and diligence that the Indian system makes you go through toughens you. Not everyone can take this stress, and hence they complain and ridicule our education system.

6. Final thoughts:

• My response is based on a comparison between a good engineering University in India and one abroad. The points made here may not apply to other branches/fields of study.

• Forgive me for saying this, but getting a masters degree from even an Ivy league these days is not a big deal. Universities look at students from developing countries as cash cows. Many people still think that a M.S. from Columbia is better than a M.Tech from an IIT. Nope. The IIT graduate worked harder, got more scientific training. Sadly, the state of the industry in India is really not conducive to professionals with a lot of technical knowledge, except in software, data science and pharmaceuticals. Hence, the IIT or BITS masters graduate won't get the benefit of their efforts. This is the reason why most students go abroad- a masters is just a ticket to exploring jobs abroad

• If you can afford it, and want to live comfortably through your college years and have more freedom, go abroad. But remember that an undergraduate degree in the US costs at least 2 cr in tuition, and probably another 10 lakhs a year in personal expenses etc. for 4 years.

• If, like me, you come from a humble background and are consigned to the struggles of a middle class Indian engineer, do not despair. Your undergraduate education here will take you far. Do not believe the often repeated statement that the education here is bad, and professors are not qualified etc. Even as a top tier PhD I do not stand a chance to become a Professor at a good Indian university because the competition is so intense.
  You will find a few incompetent professors who got in through nepotism because of an incompetent administration, but overall your professors will be a good resource to learn from.

• Wherever you graduate from, stop this aggrandizement of foreign degrees, especially the expensive degrees like MBAs from US schools. If someone has forged an independent path for the first 3-5 years of his or her career, getting admitted into an MBA in the top 10 list is not a big deal these days. 1 in 4 students applying to Wharton gets in, while 1 in 1000 is the number for IIM A, B or C. Many capable students from India and a few other countries with similar demographics cannot afford to pay $300,000, and scholarships are limited for Masters students. I feel sad to see recruiters preferring fancy degrees instead of Indian ones these days.

[Amrik Singh]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

As you folks build your careers India will in 10 or 15 years become the third largest economy even by nominal GDP.

We are going off the Topic.

How many of school going kids from the class that can afford foreign education, have taken to cooking or laundry ? This is essential for any student in West. The kids at this age in India, are spending their parents money and have never toiled to earn a few bucks. They are still quite immature. Without parental guidance and with parents bucks in their pocket, they can get off track. Undergrad in India while Masters and PhD in West seems a good combination.

As long as the demon of Reservation exists here, future of youth in India is in doldrums.

Nothing Political, but fact.

[Tapish]

Originally Posted by Thermodynamics

4. Lack of direct employment opportunities at home. How many of us have stayed in core field same as our graduation degree, hardly few. For most of us, it is about necessity. Getting some job is more important than what job. If you study abroad, there is a high probability that you would get opportunity to shine in your space and also explore the space you may desire to pursue.

Be it Sundar Pichai or Satya Nadella, they could pursue their dreams and achieve what they have because of opportunities available.

I dont agree with this point. My reading after studying/ working in the US was that many Indians are stuck at mediocre positions (even though they earn 100k +) purely because of visa restrictions. People cant grow in their jobs because of GC restrictions. For me as well, had an offer from an exciting startup to join but had to instead prefer working at an MNC due to Visa. People in India only look at a few examples - for every Satya/ Sundar, you will have many more Sachin Bansal/ NRN/ Nilekani in India.

I studied my Masters in the US and it was a great experience. My post-Masters salary (also scholarship) ensured I got done with my student loans in <6 months. However, in my company, there were a lot of undergrads with loans above 200k$ and a salary around 60k$. Doesn't make sense unless the
family can pay off the entire thing.

Undergrad in India is competitive and makes you ready for a better experience abroad.

[Amrik Singh]

Originally Posted by Tapish

I dont agree with this point. My reading after studying/ working in the US was that many Indians are stuck at mediocre positions (even though they earn 100k +) purely because of visa restrictions.

Problem or Visa restriction is applicable to US and UK only. Canada lures all those who do not get accommodated in USA.
Other western countries and Australia / New Zealand etc welcome talented people with high level of education.

Originally Posted by Tapish

However, in my company, there were a lot of undergrads with loans above 200k$ and a salary around 60k$. Doesn't make sense unless the family can pay off the entire thing.

That brings us back to the topic of the thread.

How does a student accrue a loan of 200k$ ? Mostly, if he studies for and up to Undergrad level i.e. 8 Semesters Tuition Fees (4 Years or so) in USA.

On the contrary, studying for Bachelors in India, doing job and save for a couple of years and pursue higher education in West is recommended

[Samurai]

Is anyone considering the COVID19 effect on this topic? How many top US colleges are actually operating on-campus right now? If everyone is forced to study online, what does it matter whether you do it from US/EU or India. BTW, I have one colleague who is doing his online masters in comp.sci at GeorgiaTech (ranked #7 in the world in comp.sci) since 2017 while staying in Udupi.

Reminds me of the daughters of two different cousins, despite strong reluctance from the parents, fought their way into US undergrad school last year. My son is their batchmate, and an US citizen unlike them. He was content enough to study in Bangalore, and he managed to get into a top 10 college in the country in his subject. His college is now conducting online classes, which he attends while staying at home. Last month we were in Bangalore, now we moved to Udupi to be close to elderly parents during the pandemic. Made no difference to him, we got fiber connection at his grandfather's house in a day.

Meanwhile, the girls at US are also attending online classes while staying with US relatives. The parents are constantly terrified about their safety with the record infection numbers in USA.

[Thermodynamics]

Originally Posted by Tapish

I dont agree with this point. My reading after studying/ working in the US was that many Indians are stuck at mediocre positions (even though they earn 100k +)

I studied my Masters in the US and it was a great experience. My post-Masters salary (also scholarship) ensured I got done with my student loans in <6 months. However, in my company, there were a lot of undergrads with loans above 200k$ and a salary around 60k$.

Undergrad in India is competitive and makes you ready for a better experience abroad.

Not to refute you, but I don’t fully agree with above points.
1. At least you get position in your core area at 100k salary. If I think of millions of Indian engineers graduating every year, we simply don’t have enough jobs in core fields, even getting an internship is big deal. This applies from basic engineering or advanced degrees such as PhD. We have abundance of skilled people but just not enough jobs.

2. I was also a student abroad, I know the expenses, agree that certain countries are insanely expensive but you also have whole bunch of European countries where education is very much affordable.

3. In general, I agree under graduation is economical in our country. But over the years it has become expensive. For example, compare costs of doing a medical degree in Europe vs a private medical college in India. My argument is we are reaching a level where studying abroad isn’t looking that expensive already in certain segments.