[hothatchaway]

To address the opening post, whether to go overseas or stay at home depends on the chosen field of study. If it's science and technology then the IITs et al are as good as any in the west, but the moot point is, am I good enough to get in? If not then I can always take the easy way out by moving abroad, provided of course my folks can stump up the cash.

Indians have a fixation with degrees and we are still beholden to formal education. That explains the shortage of skilled tradesmen here. Not everyone is cut out for higher education, which, if defined as a bachelor's and above, must contain huge doses of independent learning and original thinking. This is lacking in most institutes in India as students keep queing up whether they have the ability or not.

I went to the best social science school in the country after my bachelor's at yet another top draw college. The quality of thought and academic rigor was nothing to write home about. Some teachers were brilliant but they were in a minority. Most of the students in my masters class were high achievers academically, but since the goal was to bag a well paid job, motivation to invest themselves in the course did not go beyond what was needed to excel in placements.

I do not know if the situation is vastly different in technical institutes in India. The IITs are more in the news for their placements than original research, that could of course be a partial view that our rating hungry media puts out. After having interacted with graduates of top schools in India, there is no reason to believe that they are any worse than the schools abroad, that they are bereft of funds is administrative myopia.

The point I wanted to make is that the motivation to study a subject and why is more important than the name and the location. The societal pressure in India is huge and begets herd mentality. That often leads to mediocrity later on

[AltoLXI]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Is anyone considering the COVID19 effect on this topic? How many top US colleges are actually operating on-campus right now?

Some students are suing the colleges for a refund as classes are moving online, teachers are struggling with their salaries while trusts/presidents are raking the moolah.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YytF2v7Vvw0

[Amrik Singh]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Is anyone considering the COVID19 effect on this topic? How many top US colleges are actually operating on-campus right now?

In US the Universities allow 'On Campus' part time jobs like helping in Library, Mess, Laboratories etc. Though these are not well paying jobs (Grad Students), but still enough for the students to live through, staying together while Semester Fees remittance by Parents is a bi-annual ritual.
With Covid 19, the Universities have shut down and so these part time jobs are also non-existent. Students are financially hit on account of this. I do not have report on the progress of their academics, as my source - my daughters, have sailed through this phase having attained their PhD.

[asitkde]

Whether one should go abroad for undergraduate (UG) studies is the question, and the related issues of further career options.

There are usually no scholarships for UG, hence the question is of relevance only to the economically upper middle class and upper class people. For Masters programs in Engineering fields and Computer Science, in top schools in the US there are usually project money available from professors to support a student, and for PhD programs there is always financial support from US universities, top or middle tier or even lower grade. For basic sciences like Physics and Biology there is less of distinction between a Masters and a PhD program. In these fields higher education usually means at least a PhD, and financial support is always available from any US university, once the student is accepted. Getting funding even after accepted for PhD at places like Oxford and Cambridge is more difficult. Education (both UG and beyond) is quite costly for foreign students in the UK. In continental Europe it is cheaper, and in places like Germany, funding is not much of problem for higher studies.

My view is: Irrespective of the stage of education, it is best to expose oneself to good education abroad, at least once for some time, especially for people looking for academic or professional life. This is because, despite immense presence of merit and intellectual abilities, our education system is not good, it is too bookish and exam-oriented. Very rarely one enjoys the learning process.

However, I still think one should not go to a lowly placed College or University just for the sake of going abroad. To me, it beats the purpose. A top 30 to 50 University in the US, or a top 5 to 10 place in the UK - to give examples - should be the minimum target. The middle tier Universities in the US for example can be quite good. To cite just one example, I know one person who did a PhD in Bioscience from Purdue University (ranked around 50, I guess, in the field overall) is currently doing post-doctoral research in a top lab in Harvard Medical School.

But I also feel, one should then come back to India and work in India. At least one should seriously try to.

The current overall situation in the US is not good, even for foreign students. A significant percentage of the population there is a couple of pay checks away from bankruptcy. This is not a good index for a healthy country in my view, no matter how good their top Universities are. On the other hand, the European Union + Great Britain are trying very hard to get Indian students. There are top notch places in Europe and UK too, e.g., Cambridge, Oxford, Edinburgh, Imperial College, Ecole Normale Paris, ETH Zuerich and many more for UG and higher studies and specialised places like MPI in Germany for higher studies.

Everything above is written from my personal experience, and the opinions expressed are mine derived from those direct experiences and are not meant to hurt anybody's feelings.

[Amrik Singh]

Originally Posted by asitkde

But I also feel, one should then come back to India and work in India. At least one should seriously try to.

It is a noble and Patriotic thought - but impractical. Many have tried, regretted and returned. To work in Indian atmosphere, where nepotism is dominant ? Colleagues dump their own work on to you and there are others to take credit of your hard work.
Most crucial is the atmosphere full of Pollution, polluted Water, erratic Electricity, tense nights for getting children admitted to reputed schools and other factors, mention of which goes against the policies of the forum. The only positive point is a relaxed life as domestic helps are always at hands, though honest ones are a rare breed.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by Amrik Singh

It is a noble and Patriotic thought - but impractical. Many have tried, regretted and returned.

You should measure the concept by looking at people who made it work, and not by people who gave up. I returned in 2004 after spending a decade in USA. Never regretted it.

[asitkde]

Originally Posted by Amrik Singh

It is a noble and Patriotic thought - but impractical. Many have tried, regretted and returned. To work in Indian atmosphere, where nepotism is dominant ? Colleagues dump their own work on to you and there are others to take credit of your hard work.
Most crucial is the atmosphere full of Pollution, polluted Water, erratic Electricity, tense nights for getting children admitted to reputed schools and other factors

It should have been evident from my previous post that I am not ignorant of all those points you mention . In fact, I am aware of all those issues too well. Getting one's career to a point is okay, but unless we aim bigger, we will leave a poorer India for the next generation. As Narayan already pointed out, for some people, looking after the elderly can be an important and satisfying consideration too. Prioroties can be different for different people. I feel, after one has reached a certain point in one's career, one has to think of the broader picture. That is good even for the person himself/herself. Chasing a career to the point of winning a Nobel or becoming a billionaire, may not be the only priority for all people. I have personally seen, there may be pitfalls in such journeys. In my view, a vast majority of people who came back and then again went back, did not try hard enough. I know a few people who stayed in the West for nearly 15 years, then came back inspite of being fully capable of surviving abroad in the most competitive professional scenario, had numerous difficulties in India, sacrificed high academic or professional dreams, but still did not go back. This can happen and should happen more. We cannot keep on loosing some of our best Human Resources for ever.

[AltoLXI]

Students taking online classes maybe asked to leave US of A.

The Donald Trump administartion has asked foreign students in the US, whose colleges have shifted to online teaching, to shift to schools that have in-person classes or leave the country, a move that potentially would affect thousands of Indian students in America.

The US Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) on Monday night issued a statement saying that Nonimmigrant F-1 and M-1 students attending schools operating entirely online may not take a full online course load and remain in the United States.

Link

[Samurai]

As I said before, if classes are going to be online, it doesn't matter where you live. My son is studying in a Bangalore college, yet we are now staying in Udupi. He attends online classes 7am-11am everyday from here.

However, I didn't expect Trump's ICE department to swing into action so fast, trying to evict all the F1 visa holders. Trump must be trying to earn some brownie points with his base by evicting foreigners.

[francisvellara]

I was faced with this dilemma a few years back. I had gotten admission in two colleges, both well-ranked, but one in India and the other abroad. I eventually chose the one in India, and while this choice was largely driven by my fear of homesickness, I had taken advice from a relative who had worked as a professor in both these colleges. His take on it was this:

The one abroad is considerably higher in world rankings, but the admission process to it for students of the local country is not as hard as the Indian college's entrance requirements are for Indians. Hence, he felt that even though the college itself is more developed abroad, the quality of students is better in the Indian one, and this leads to a more intellectually inspiring environment here.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by Slickshift99

Some Very IMPORTANT factors to consider before looking out for a College/University:-

1) The Subject you wish to persue

2)Monetary Factor:

3) Quality of Education

4) After degree plans


Thank you.

Perhaps a hidden frontier which most Indian students aren't considering enough are European Universities which are increasingly coming up with a large number of English language courses. Many of them - including traditional ones like Germany, Belgium, Scandinavia etc have very low tuition fees as well compared to traditional English speaking countries while even countries like France and Spain have started offering English courses as well. I followed the time honored method of doing my Bachelors in India (Amity University, Noida) and my Masters abroad (Ghent University in Belgium). I'd like to share my takes on this based on my experience since I just graduated last year.

1) The Subject you wish to pursue.

This is one of the most important reason I decided to do my Masters abroad. The subject was available in many Central government institutions but the competition was stiff. Hence, it made more sense to study abroad.

2) Monetary factor.

The tuition fee vary by country offcourse. A lot of European countries have very low tuition fees, some are even free. It also depends on the University and by state (in Germany). For example, I paid just 890 Euros per year as tuition in Belgium and the current batch pays around 5500 Euros (Students from Least Developed Countries (LDCs) still pay 890 euros). Offcourse, you have to account for the living expense which will vary between 600 - 1000 euros.

3) Quality of Education:

Again, I can only speak for European Universities but one of the most interesting aspects I've noticed was how Professors from universities of other countries (Italy, France, Sweden etc.) were invited to teach the subjects which they were proficient in, so we were assured of having the best professors for each subject. Hence, you almost never will have a mediocre professor teaching a subject. Another contributing factor is the quality of research (if you are into STEM), it is just better, I've had my Chinese friends admitting that even their Universities have a lot of catching up to do (though they are catching up fast).

4) After degree plans:

This was by far the biggest drawback of Belgium as they do not extend your visa after graduating. However, the Netherlands offer a one year Orientation Visa as long as you graduate from a university in the top 200 position. I chose not to avail of this option as I got a job in Dubai by then.

Other than Europe, other emerging hubs include Korea and Japan while Singapore and Malaysia seems to be established hubs for Indians students. Perhaps someone with experience could talk about these. Also, QS has a detailed guide by country (whether you agree with their rankings is another story )

[ashokrajagopal]

When all the answers are available in Google that can fit in your pocket, I often wonder how these institutions matter in the long run.

I sincerely hope, one of these days I would read this kind of discussion, and see this kind of text -- " We have a severe problem in education in our country and I am going to work on changing that. I am choosing a public life to change education"

PS: "Competition is stiff here; hence planning to do/have done college from abroad" is just a nicer way of saying I/my parents bought my way out of the competition.
Quality is a totally different thing.

[Amrik Singh]

This shows how some of the Universities are dependent on International Students. Obviously, exchange of Education + Legit Certificate for Money.

Only question is, if it is a fair deal ?

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/76804713.cms

[charanreddy]

I have a limited perspective as all my education has been in India. Admittedly, I am from an humble economic background and couldn’t afford the videshi dream pursued by some of my friends.

Education in India super economical. Period. I completed my masters in 2007 from IIT D. All of tuition fee upto my post graduation is less that what it takes to educate a child for one year in a decent international school in Bangalore. I feel, My experience as a student was in no way inferior in India. I learnt stuff, made friends from all regions and walks of life, met some tremendous professors and some really lame ones.

I got placed in a bank post my masters and after the first two years, I can’t recall anywhere where my education was referred to. It’s all about skills and perspectives gained and how you can solve some challenging problems for businesses. Given learning is now increasingly online, I think where you studied matters even less. It’s all about how competent one is.

One key differentiator I have experienced at the start of my career is this: All of work in MNC s is for developed economies like USA and Europe. By virtue of location abroad, a few colleagues get better quality of work and an edge in influencing decisions with local management. However infra company transfers to abroad limit this disadvantage to a great extent, not that I ever felt a need to go abroad.

From my perspective, it boils down to this. Are you able to afford and willing to pay ~ 100 k USD for the quality of student life experiences, mingling with people from different cultures and build relationships and network for the countries you will likely work for ? If this is yes you can go abroad for studies , esp bachelors. I believe that we don’t need to take a gamble on family’s finances to pursue some perceived benefit a foreign education adds. The playing field is increasingly being levelled due to many factors.

[pradeepkc]

Having earned my undergraduate degree here and a Masters in EE in the US, I wouldn't do it any other way. I was extremely laid back during my undergraduate days. Even though I was in one of the top engineering colleges in my state, I hated rote learning and mostly did well in subjects that interested me and barely scraped through the ones that didn't. Half of my lecturers hated me. One of them didn't let me write my internal lab exam only because I told him the subject didn't interest me. The way HOD treated me is whole another story.

Masters was whole another experience. I decided to pursue my masters instead of working in IT stream having earned my degree in E&C. Having grown up in a middle class family, I picked an University that offered the most scholarship even though I got admits from fairly better ones as well. I loved that I could pick the courses that I wanted to study, every course had exams and projects based on the professor and I really hit it off with 3 professors. I especially loved the concept of open book and take home exams. I even got an opportunity to work on some research for a professor. I also worked part time teaching undergraduate kids and even worked in a dental school as record scanner for the dental students. All of this prepared me for my professional career.

The education in India is rote learning and hierarchical. The only highlight of my undergraduate degree were my projects and my internship at ISRO. I know this will invite criticism from some of you, IMO, I wouldn't consider half of them as engineers but menial task workers where they don't apply any engineering principles. I get it that some take up such work because of the pay, but lot of them very pushed into the field because their family pushed them into it. The ones I knew hated it. And almost all of went on to pursue MBA.

Having come back to India after spending 13 years in the US, I love the energy of the students here and what they want to achieve, but their education system has let them down. Most don't understand the basic principles and have to learn on the job.

Just my 2 cents, I hope it doesn't offend anyone.