[navin]

Originally Posted by Samurai

As GTO mentioned a few posts ago, Team-BHP would not exist if GTO had not gone abroad for higher studies. What he left unsaid was that Team-BHP would not have existed if he hadn't come back to India right after his studies.

Education goes beyond what is taught in a classroom or even by "teachers".

In that sense education in the US is unparalleled if you go to a good school. When we were studying Karl Marx's communist manifesto (a surprisingly small document) we got to visit a communist country (Nicaragua under the Sandanistas). When we were studying the Dutch "Light Masters" (Franz Hals, Rembrandt, Jan Steen, Johannes Vermeer, etc.) we traveled to Amsterdam for 10 days so we could visit the museums and have long discussions with the curators. No Indian college can afford to teach like this.

In 2016, my family and I were visiting Austria and one of the stops was Mozart's birthplace. I found I knew more than the tour guide because I had studied Mozart (and Beethoven) in college.

As an engineering student, I got to study politics, economics, literature, music, and art. I got to intern with writers from the New York Times, I got to visit and meet people I just wouldn't have the opportunity to if I had studied in India. Not even the IITs and IISc can offer this exposure.

[mohansrides]

Lots of really good responses. As the last person pointed out, if your goal is truly only to get the best education possible, then yes, the US is a fantastic destination.

But, the problem is that such views are quite utopian; 95% of people will always seek an education for what it can provide them. In fact, even those who tell themselves that it is the content and quality of education that is important, will eventually sour on that education if it doesn't translate into good career prospects.

I should know because I fooled myself into thinking that the learning content was more important to me, rather the real and tangible benefits that formal education is typically expected to provide. I told myself that I am somehow different (and better) than my peers; and that the proof lay in the fact that I was pursuing knowledge for its own sake. The only problem was that, in reality, I was no different than anyone else. It took me a long time to realise that I wanted an education for what it could provide me with; i.e a well-paying job, a decent career and a comfortable life.

And if these are your goals, the only thing dumber than going to the US for an education today, is to do so by taking big loans.

There are plenty of members who have spoken about how good their US university experiences were. There is no doubting this at all. An on-campus experience in the US is very memorable. It is unparalleled actually.

But, that is not the only consideration. Please keep in mind that the members who are voicing this opinion have finished their education and are possibly in comfortable positions now. Times have changed a lot. Today, it is very very hard to leverage a US degree.

• In India, the value of a US degree is next to nothing unless you are interviewing for CXO positions in top companies with an MBA from one of the top 10 business schools in the US.
  
  
• In the US, parlaying a US degree into a successful career is very hard today. Actually, it is not hard just today. It has been hard for a long time. I struggled for 10 years entirely due to immigration being a monkey on my back. Immigration rules keep changing with students being left in the lurch. On top of that, a volatile economy always finds its victims from among the weakest. And have no doubt, that as a person without citizenship or residency, you will be one of the weakest. In my case, any money I made was spent in fees for immigration processes; all of which never panned out. And this was pre-President Trump. I can't imagine what people are going through over there today. It is nothing but mental torture.

In my last year in the US, I worked for a tech giant where I met hundreds of Indians in very senior positions. Without exception, they belonged to two camps.

a.) The smaller camp was that of people who had come for their MS to the US and graduated from absolutely the top schools - UC Bekeley, UM College Park, UT Austin, UCLA, UI Urbana Champaign, if not MIT and Harvard. These people had been aggressively wooed by their respective orgs with big pay packets right out of campus.

b.) The bigger camp was of people who had come to the US literally by the truck loads through bodyshopping organizations during the .com the Y2K booms. Most of them had very little formal education. NIITs and Aptechs and small-time US universities at best. At any other time, their tech-giant employers would not have even have looked at them. But, Y2K and .com booms were desperate times for employers. They needed as many warm bodies as they could get their hands on. If you had a pulse and could write a "Hello World" program, Microsoft or a Sun Microsystems would hire you. That was the entry for people in this camp. Once in, and to their credit, these people leveraged their experience into very senior positions in their respective organizations.

The best times to move to the US through an education route was in the 1970s and 80s. Then the early to mid-90s period provided a big door because of Y2K. After that, the windows have been progressively closing.

Fast forwarding to today, almost everyone in my org has tried moving to the US. Some very lucky ones got their Green Cards through L1-A. But, many many people found themselves unceremoniously kicked out due to immigration hassles. Their stories are full of horrific episodes - huge financial losses, loss of education years of kids, long periods of disbarment of travel to the US. The horrors are never ending. In some cases, these horrors are compounded by health problems with senior parents who remain back in India. Hearing all this gives me some solace that at the very least, I was not married when I was dealing with US immigration.

Once I came back to India, not a month goes by without either my boss or my clients suggesting that I move back to the US. But, I have stubbornly refused. After a decade of struggle, I now hold a job that pays me half or even 1/4th of what my peers make. And I have literally given up on having any sort of career per say. But, I am happy to have my peace of mind, and I am happy to be of some use to my family.


Summary:

• If you want the best education that money can buy, then please go to the US. But, be clear that all you want is knowledge and exposure. Nothing else.
  
  
• However, if you are like 95% of the people (and chances are that you are), you will want your education in the US to serve as a platform for entry into the American Dream. If this is the case, be advised that the chances of you succeeding are very very slim today. Your chances are marginally better if you happen to graduate from the top 15 schools in the US. But, if you choose any school outside of the top lists, it is going to be nothing but a struggle. You would be very lucky if you manage to get a few years of work experience through H1B. But, getting an H1B is a struggle by itself, and the pandemic just made it worse. Then there is the coveted Green Card. Getting that through your employment is going to be next to impossible. My co-brother got his GC after 17 years. Yes, SEVENTEEN!! All the while, he was stuck in a dead-end job that he could not quit. He is very lucky that his kids didn't age out and get themselves caught in immigration no-man's land.

The world order has rapidly changed wherein most of the countries with good living standards have already closed their borders, or are fast erecting road blocks to immigration to ensure that only those with very specific skills make it through the net. Being well-educated from a US school will not automatically qualify you for entry.

P.S.

On one of my myriad trips to India for H1 stamping, the seat next to me on the plane was taken by a 70 year old Indian doctor from Wisconsin. He told me that when landed in Milwaukee in the mid-70s for his advanced degree in medicine, his academic advisor was there to greet him; complete with a garland and a tikka on the forehead Indian style. The idea was to make the new student feel welcome, and to make them feel less homesick.

It made me smile. When I landed in the US for the first time, a scrawny kid in the late 90s, I got no such welcome. At one point, I was really struggling to load my big suitcase onto the trolley as the low-friction wheels kept moving the trolley back. So, I spotted a burly cop and politely requested him if he could kindly just hold the trolley as I pushed the suitcase on top of it. He responded by calling me some unprintable names, and then asked me if I thought he was the porter and if I also expected him to fetch me my meals. All this for simply requesting him to hold the trolley while I did the heavy lifting.

That was the difference in times.

[v1p3r]

This thread is deja vu city. Background - I did 2 separate undergraduate courses, one in India at a top local (Karnataka) college and one in a UK university that was above average and climbing the rankings fast. Most of my family went to IIx, I didn't apply myself at the right time (or I'm stupid).

In India, I studied computer science. The experience was ghastly. I was coding from the early-mid 90s - privileged to have an office PC at home, and access at school. The teaching was SO BAD at my college - we were not allowed to use a computer until 2nd year, then there was no free access and it was limited to classes only. Of course, the internet was not accessible from college for disciplinary reasons. All my classmates were CET rank 1000 and below, still sad they didn't get into IITs, and were very excited at the thought of an Infosys job. My teachers did not understand that you could halt a bootup and make changes to a BIOS. Most of them could not even communicate properly, a quality that might be required if you teach. I nearly lost my mind. As a result of it, I began to hate computer science, and spent all my time in garages building race cars instead. Great decision, seeing as I now run a data science company.

I saved up for a few years and got some level of financial assistance for my UK degree. I insisted on an undergraduate course, this time in motorsport engineering. I wanted to learn theory and other bits from the ground up, having worked with my hands for multiple years locally. The experience was vastly different - we were given unlimited access to top notch facilities, everything was on a voluntary basis, every teacher and staff member was approachable. I still managed to do badly at Maths (always and forever) but was at the top of most other subjects, just because it was so interesting and I was engrossed. I got a couple of job offers and worked for a while before coming back to India to start a new venture. My university also offered to go into business with me as a partnership.

My learnings:

• In India, 'teachers' are accorded too much false respect. 3 of my 4 grandparents were teachers, and some of my aunts and uncles too. But in the end, it is a job. Demanding respect is not the same as earning it. My college teachers were horrible. Colleges are too happy to shout guru shishya parampara, while the trustees buy new Mercedes every year. Yes, it is capitalistic, so treat it as such. In the UK, it is very clear that the student is a customer and needs to be treated as such. Discipline exists and people are trusted to not abuse the system, but there is no false respect. Making it a business transaction clears up a lot of false pretences. In the UK, I had two complaints over the course of the years, and both were escalated to the dean or a high-powered committee and dealt with satisfactorily, with real time tracking and email updates much like a customer service resolution.
  
  
• There is true learning. Everyone in my course joined because they LOVED CARS. The Physics Hons students LOVED PHYSICS. No one joined to 'get a job'. Mind you, none of my classmates had college-educated parents. But most of them already knew how to use a lathe, or weld, or at least change the oil on their cars. How many Indian mechanical engineering students enter college having used a wrench? I was teaching PG students from India in my spare time, because they could not keep up with the demands of the syllabus.
  
  
• Our learning in India is memorising and reproducing. I now employ IIx guys and have to teach them basic first-principles thinking. In the UK, I went to a middle-rung university, with middle-rung but dedicated students. They are all now working at either F1, WRC, GT/LM teams in key positions, or at OEM suppliers to these teams, like Alcon and ATL. This is the pinnacle of engineering in this field, so it's not like they got some odd jobs. The system of learning was case study and project based, with results for a small class of 20 taking upto 2 months, because the teachers had to read every report thoroughly. This, to my knowledge, occurs in India only in the IIMs. It is no surprise that the CEO of Capgemini (an Indian) publicly stated that upto 80% of Indian engineering graduates are unemployable. In my organisation, our take rate from CVs and resumes (that come vetted) is approximately 1/1000 so 0.1%.
  
  
• If you are there for the above two reasons, you will have a much higher chance of being employed. I was the first in my class to get a job, ahead of the locals. There were 3 Indian immigrants, we all got jobs. Good ones, from F1 to McLaren to Big 4 consulting.
  
  
• On the other hand, there were a lot of Masters students from India who came in the hope of emigrating. Their engineering knowledge was poor (I took tuitions for them) so they did badly in class. They took on part-time jobs, either to get by (necessary) or to earn money to shop, holiday, drink. None of them got a job. They went back to India bitter and disappointed, some of them with rupee-denominated education loans to repay.
  
  
• The IITs are better for a simple reason - competition. Oxford has the smartest people from 50 millon, IITs have the smartest people from 1.3 billion. If you only admit the most intelligent, dedicated and hardworking sixteen year olds into an empty room, that room will produce future CEOs and inventors, even if there is nothing in the room. As far as instruction and facilities go, they are not a patch on any western university. Any IIxian will tell you that s/he was forced to sink or swim/compete with five hundred people who were just as smart, and that the college and courses were a very distant second place in the experience.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

You may also want to give a thought to the next 45+ years which is the period till 2065 - 2070 that your careers will span. Where will the future growth lie - India or Portugal? - giving an extreme example but it is worth dwelling upon.

Are you better off building a career through one path or the other - no. Your career over 4 to 5 decades will be influenced by thousands of factors and millions of bits of your own effort. Where you graduated from matters less and less later except for networking.

Yes! Plan plan plan!

Originally Posted by aghate

3) Quality of Education
No debate here. The quality of education would definitely be better. I am not comparing this with the IITs and IIMs we have in India, these institutes have the top brains from India.

The quality of the students there is excellent. The teaching and facilities there are nothing to write home about. My background on this comes from some of my closest friends and family members having attended these institutions.

Originally Posted by Amrik Singh

As long as the demon of Reservation exists here, future of youth in India is in doldrums.

Nothing Political, but fact.

I agree with everything you have said across your posts, with one exception. There is nothing factual about this. I am what you may call an Indian WASP - male, extremely privileged, just my surname will open doors. I am sure I lost out on some seat at some point due to reservation, but I still support the system wholeheartedly. To grow up and succeed in a world where the dice were loaded against you for three thousand years, you need help. Yes, there are abuses of the system, as there are for all systems. That does not mean you cancel it completely.

Originally Posted by asitkde

My view is: Irrespective of the stage of education, it is best to expose oneself to good education abroad, at least once for some time, especially for people looking for academic or professional life. This is because, despite immense presence of merit and intellectual abilities, our education system is not good, it is too bookish and exam-oriented. Very rarely one enjoys the learning process.

+1

Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal

PS: "Competition is stiff here; hence planning to do/have done college from abroad" is just a nicer way of saying I/my parents bought my way out of the competition.
Quality is a totally different thing.

People who run away from one fight will always run away from fights. But I have rarely seen people going abroad to escape competition.

Originally Posted by pradeepkc

Having earned my undergraduate degree here and a Masters in EE in the US, I wouldn't do it any other way...
Having come back to India after spending 13 years in the US, I love the energy of the students here and what they want to achieve, but their education system has let them down. Most don't understand the basic principles and have to learn on the job.

Just my 2 cents, I hope it doesn't offend anyone.

+1000

Originally Posted by navin

Education goes beyond what is taught in a classroom or even by "teachers".

Yes!

[GTO]

Originally Posted by navin

The big difference between studying in India and the UK (do not know much about Europe) is the cost. My take is if the family can afford it, they should send the child.

Even kids who are just "good" in academics (and not excellent) get unbelievable scholarships abroad. I sent a close cousin to my alma mater, Bentley University in Boston. The regular fees for an MBA then were $75,000 or approximately Rs 50 lakhs. He had decent academics - think 70 - 75% (good, but not a class topper at all) and got a 640 in GMAT. Again, good, but not exceptional.

We prepared his profile properly, including his extra-curriculars, he wrote some killer essays, handled the interview superbly etc. etc.

Net net, he got that MBA at 10-lakh rupees (80% scholarship). On par or cheaper than an MBA in India. He also got an on-campus job that took care of almost all his living expenses. Today, he is a successful entrepreneur in Bombay.

For scholarships, you have to present your profile well, target the right schools and make some compromises (e.g. ranking, location).

[navin]

Originally Posted by GTO

Even kids who are just "good" in academics (and not excellent) get unbelievable scholarships abroad.

We prepared his profile properly, including his extra-curriculars, he wrote some killer essays, handled the interview superbly etc. etc.

Agreed but the top Universities and Liberal Colleges in the US especially the "Universities" (Williams, Amherst, Pomona, Rice, Duke, Stanford, MIT, Chicago, and the Ivies) arent as generous as the lower-ranked Universities or Liberal Arts colleges unless it is a sports scholarship. The big state schools (UC, UIUC, Georgia Tech etc.) are great too but the freshmen, sophomore, and some junior class sizes are enormous (most are 100+, many are 250+ and some are 500+). U Mich (Ann Arbor) has probably the smallest class sizes from all the state schools.

For more details about the college of your choice, these 2 websites are a good place to start
https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/
https://www.collegedata.com/

Collegedata.com is very useful in ascertaining data like % of classes that are over 100 or between 50-100 students. Let's compare 3 schools. A good liberal arts school, a good University, and a good State school.

https://www.collegedata.com/college/Pomona-College/
40-49 students: 1% of classes and 50-99 students: 0% of classes
https://www.collegedata.com/college/Duke-University/
50-99 students: 4% of classes and Over 100 students: 3% of classes
https://www.collegedata.com/college/...Santa-Barbara/
50-99 students: 10% of classes and Over 100 students: 9% of classes

Now, remember that Duke and UCSB will have a lot of their classes that are for Ph.D. and Masters classes so one should double the % for 50-99 and 100+ if one is considering going for an undergraduate program.

That would mean that at Duke about 14% of their undergrad classes would have more than 50 students 2x(4+3) and UCSB would have 38% 2x(9+10)of undergrad classes over 50 students.

You need to drill down a bit more for specific programs (for example the data for Cornell is skewed by the large Agriculture program they also have).

To drill down you can google "Common Data Set" for the colleges you are interested in. For example, this is the Common Data Set for Cornell.

http://irp.dpb.cornell.edu/wp-conten...2020_FINAL.pdf

Remember to check the year. Most colleges are a year behind. The data to consider:

B1 Total number of both undergraduate and graduate students
B2 Racial/ethnic diversity on campus
C1 First-year acceptance rate, broken down by male and female applicants
C2 Number of students placed on (and later admitted from) the waitlist
C5 Required and recommended number of academic classes applicants must take in high school
C7 Importance of factors like class rank, test scores, alumni relation, and demonstrated interest, in admissions decisions
C8A Middle 50% of SAT/ACT scores for admitted students
C21 Acceptance rates for Early Decision students
C22 Acceptance rates for Early Action students
D2 Acceptance rate for transfer students
F1 Student life, including the percentage of students who are from out-of-state, involved in Greek life, or who live off-campus
H2A Average merit-based scholarship package
J1 Most popular degrees/majors
I1 Professor data
I2 Student : Faculty ratio
I3 Class size


However, for a good student, the UK is a good bet as you the fees are a lot more affordable (GBP 30,000) even without any scholarship. The UK has fewer top schools though (Oxbridge, LSE, and Imperial).

Of these, LSE and Imperial have limited programs. The former specializes in Accounting, Economics, and Business Management, and the later in Science, Technology, and Engineering.

[Route66]

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

I'm sorry, I disagree with such a blanket statement. This is down to how the individual kid was raised. International students are in extremely competitive environments and don't have time for such activities.

Originally Posted by am1m

And it's virtually impossible for youngsters to get 'hooked up on drinks/drugs/dance bars/gambling' in our country?

I meant comparatively, its easier for kids to go awry there as things are far easily accessible. In India, a lot of kids are staying with family which is always a deterrent for such indulgence. This does not mean that everyone who is going to western country gets hooked up on these sins. It was not meant to be a blanket statement.

Originally Posted by navin

Kids at 17-18 are mature enough.

Many kids at 17-18 are sure about what they study I was sure I wanted to study engineering in my 4th grade. I don't remember wanting to do anything else. My son has been sure about wanting to study Physics / Applied Physics since his 8th grade.

I have experienced otherwise (in most cases) while working in the industry last year. A lot of kids will come in with no clear choice of course. Parents asking which field will have more chances of a job abroad and then applying according to that. Maybe its because of the area which we were catering to or general lack of interest, but it was surprising for me as well. When i was in 10th, I knew I wanted to get into IT field. I even changed school after 10th because my old school didn't had a good computer lab/teacher. But a student going for Master's will usually come with a list of shortlisted course and Universities.

On maturity, Kudos to you and your kids. Great to see that they can manage on their own. My intention was to highlight the difference in maturity for a kid going for Bachelor's and a Master's; and to some extend the mindset of parents whether they are comfortable that their kid will be able to manage on his own or not.

[Miyata]

Simple exercise - Think of the very best world renowned teachers.

Most of us might have just one answer - Richard Feynman. The man elevated teaching to some sort of yoga! [IIT KGP motto - Yogah Karmasu Kaushalam (Excellence in action is Yoga)...one of the quotations picked out from the Bhagawat Gita.]

If you've read his books you'll know why he is considered among the finest of teachers and what about his teaching philosophy made him so popular.

I've met many awesome faculty members in the US that were par excellence teachers and a passion that never seemed to diminish. I remain in touch with many of them.

In all of my experiences in India, I can recall only one professor who has/had been a stand out - as brilliant as he was an outstanding teacher. It was one of my greatest pleasures to take his exams. He passed away recently to some illness.

The thing with such outstanding teachers is that they hook you on to the subjects and also the general process of learning. Which, I believe, is what happened with me owing to my good fortune of having some of the most awesome teachers.

I have lost count of how many people I have eventually guided for their higher studies in the USA through GRE prep, college applications, statement of purpose building, etc...some of it was thanks to my involvement in the university college admission recruitment.

If one does get a chance, do pls go ahead and grab it with both hands while making sure you receive good funding and tuition waivers etc - it's really very easy. If you do not get a chance, don't fret, you will still do fine with many open course wares and other modes of learning. At the end, it is more important to make that education count. Eventually it will not make much difference IF one has developed passion for learning.

Job after college - Personally, I found no trouble in the US. Between the industry and university, you can always find positions provided you have cared enough to develop a decent network (through conferences, proceedings, networking events, alumni network, the network while at university with peers, seniors, etc.). The point is, you need to have some awareness of how a system works and what you may need to do so as to not totally fall apart.

Most of my peers chose to stay back in the US. I think all of them have their greencards by now. I had to return since my wife insisted she will not raise her kids in the USA! Personally, I am equally at home either here or there. Makes not much difference to me.

[mmxylorider]

My kids will become 11 graders this fall here in the US. This is a crucial year for doing the research on colleges, apps etc. We are contemplating the option of undergrad outside of US (EU/AUS/CA and even India) since a lot of international undergrad colleges provide admission based on SAT scores. BITS is one such university in India.

While an undergrad degree from a good college is sometimes more important that getting masters, which field one pursues is a big factor. Aerospace engineering is a growing field and not many universities offer it. Where would one go? Medicine is highly competitive in India so Ukraine is fast becoming a preferred destination to that degree. Catering and hospitality degrees from India are considered to be among the best in the world.

[navin]

Originally Posted by Miyata

Simple exercise - Think of the very best world renowned teachers.
Most of us might have just one answer - Richard Feynman.

You do not need Richard Feynman (with all due respect to his brilliance) to teach you to learn well.

I can safely count having at least 5 good teachers in high school in Mumbai and about the same number in my 4 years of college in NY.

The big difference between studying in India and the US is not the students and the teachers. It is the infrastructure.

My college in the US had 1000s of oscilloscopes in the laboratory (all donated by Tektronix and Hewlett-Packard), we had main frame computers donated by IBM and UNIVAC etc. Beyond this the college was able to take on several field trips.

Today some new colleges in India like Ashoka and Krea might be doing the same. Maybe they are as good as some US colleges but they will take several years before the develop the reputation of the good US/UK/EU universities.

[Miyata]

Originally Posted by navin

The big difference between studying in India and the US is not the students and the teachers. It is the infrastructure.

The gap in infrastructure has rapidly closed and continues to do so. Soon enough we might be on par as far as education till basic undergrad is concerned.

In your case, you might have either been lucky to get so many good teachers in India or it could be that your parents took the trouble and scouted about for schools that met their criteria in terms of the staff quality etc.

Infrastructure sure does make a difference, I do not disagree. But imagine putting precious stones, gems, pearls, and the like in hands of monkeys that know neither its value nor can appreciate what they may stand for!

All the grand (educational) infrastructure would be just that if not for teachers that are - approachable; are more or less masters of their trade; will entertain a dialogue where opposing them is not seen as a threat; will sit down with you patiently to go through any help one may require even well beyond official hours. It does happen sometimes and some places in India...while in the US, I have seen this happen many places and many times.

That does make a difference.

[mohansrides]

Originally Posted by Miyata

..Job after college - Personally, I found no trouble in the US.....Personally, I am equally at home either here or there. Makes not much difference to me.

Well, good for you. But, most people are not as sorted as you are.

Most people think that they want one thing, only to discover that they actually want something else. This is what happens to many Indian students who go to the US, or to any first world country. They tell themselves that it is only the education that is important to them. But once there, the clean and well-paved roads, the clean air, the wonderful accommodations and facilities, a law abiding society, the higher quality of the food, and just the uncrowded and beautiful surroundings**; all of these things re-arrange your priorities without you realizing it. Staying back in the US will suddenly become more important as life there feels much better. At that point, the education will become nothing more than just a platform to launch yourself more legitimately into the life that you have been experiencing as a student.

That's when the problems arise.

US immigration is a black hole of shifting sands. Case in point is the recent ruling regarding F1 students in the US. In this instance, the universities are contesting the rule, and it is possible that they may prevail and get this ruling reversed. But, even if that happens, there will be some other rule that will come up in the future that will up the uncertainty for foreigners. Remember that the government is all powerful and can change the rules that will determine your fate. Your friends and colleagues will tell you that you are a wonderful person and that you deserve better. But, absolutely no one will be able to help you with anything. Once the government's rules kick in, you are simply at their mercy. The nomenclature may change (F1 / OPT / H1), but the uncertainty and the struggle will remain the same.

See this story from today's news feed. Then read the comments under the post on Facebook. This girl came to the US likely 14 years ago, and she is still on H4 not allowing her the freedom to make choices for her own life. That is an absolute shame.

From your early twenties to your thirties, and in some cases, well into your forties, you will be in legal limbo. These are your peak earning years; and instead of making use of them to invest in your own life, you will be spending them in absolute terror with a sword hanging over your head. For example, you will not have the courage to buy a house instead of throwing money away in rent; you will sometimes not even feel free to buy yourself that car you always wanted. In some stages of immigration, even making the choice to get married is hard. Because you simply do not know when you will be asked to leave.

Losing one's job is a traumatic experience even during normal circumstances as you have deal with loss of money, and the resulting loss of dignity. But, as a visa holder, the stakes are even higher - the minute you lose your job, you are basically an illegal presence in the country. That means that you are literally breaking the law by breathing the air. That's how terrifying it is.

Bottom line - even if you think that you clearly know what you want, it may turn out that you didn't at all know what you really want. Make your education choices keeping that in mind.

P. S.

** Just being in and around the campus of an average American University is enough to make one feel like they never want to leave. Campuses themselves are more beautiful than some of the supposed picturesque spots in India. From Mumbai, I practically have to ride or drive hundreds of kms to find spots that are equivalent in beauty to my Uni campus in the States. And I did not even go to any of the absolute top schools. I can only imagine what life must be life at the Purdues and the Stanfords of the country.

[Miyata]

Originally Posted by mohansrides

even if you think that you clearly know what you want, it may turn out that you didn't at all. Make your education choices keeping that in mind.

It is true that priorities can change, circumstances can shift, events can happen that can disrupt ones plan A.

One person from my alma mater working in a chemical industry (firm) was charged with espionage by the FBI and ended up spending 2-3 yrs in the federal prison. I do not know the details of the case, just that he had downloaded something on his laptop over a period of time.

He eventually relocated to Canada and started a career there. Brilliant chap, but unfortunate what happened. In India, we sometime takes things like data security and protocols for granted and pay not much heed to them. Possibly he had that approach....I don't know.

On the H4 - a dependent in any manner or form has many times been subject of exploitation just about everywhere on Earth. Personally, I would prefer that everyone maintains their financial and career independence to whatever degree feasible. Quite a few people I know started off on H4 to gradually go about converting that through F1/J1 etc where they hold their own. I understand there could some limiting factors in few cases, barring those, I fail to understand any reason anyone should choose to remain a "dependent".

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by mohansrides

See this story from today's newsfeed. Then read the comments under the post on Facebook. This girl came to the US likely 14 years ago, and she is still on H4 not allowing her the freedom to make choices for her own life. That is an absolute shame.

This is a real shame. My son is the reverse case. He came to India at age 2 as an US citizen. He never faced any issue for being a foreigner. Yes, he didn't qualify for certain niche things like NTSE exam. We were afraid we may have to pay foreign student fees at college. Couple of potential colleges confirmed that we will have to pay foreign student fees. When he was finally admitted to undergrad course last year, I was at the cash counter ready to pay foreign student fee, the cashier noticed my son had CBSE certificates for 12th and 10th grade. He triggered an alert and called couple senior people and conferred. After verifying that my son did his studies entirely in the same state as a resident, they decided to treat him like a local student and charged standard fee. That reduced the fee to half of what I was about to pay. It is very peaceful to be foreign student in India without worrying about visa. The visa extortion in USA can be really scary and frustrating.

[mohansrides]

Originally Posted by Samurai

This is a real shame. My son is the reverse case.......After verifying that my son did his studies entirely in the same state as a resident, they decided to treat him like a local student and charged standard fee....

The difference is that here in India, the discretion of judgement lies at the hands of the institute's management. That is not the case in the US. No university big shot can do anything for you, even if you have spent your entire life being his / her neighbor. They have to follow the rules set out for them by ICE; and those rules are absolutely merciless.

P. S.

By the way, even my cousin sister was in the same boat as your son. She started her MBBS fully prepared to pay NRI fees. But, she was exempted after some consideration.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by Miyata

In all of my experiences in India, I can recall only one professor who has/had been a stand out - as brilliant as he was an outstanding teacher. It was one of my greatest pleasures to take his exams.

I don't have any experience studying abroad, but I've had this exact same experience during my college days here. I studied at one of the good colleges in Karnataka and there was just one teacher who stood out. Sure there were students who made the best of bad teachers and inadequate infra too, but the point is that a good teacher makes a heck of a difference. And even some of what are considered the best colleges here didn't seem to have more than one or two a piece unfortunately. Dunno if the situation has changed these days. I hope so. What I do today for a living has no relation with the course I took my undergrad degree in, but I still remember that professor's lessons and yes, there was no 'fear' when I went to write an exam for that professor's subject, just the confidence that comes from a good understanding of the subject.

I also had the chance to work for a long time for a company in Bangalore that makes higher education software for US colleges. One thing that becomes obvious is the way US colleges treat their students as valued clients. The amount of thought that goes in to making sure the student has a good experience right from being identified by the college as a prospect till they become an alumnus and even beyond, was certainly an eye-opener for me. The student is the center of the college experience in the US. During my school and college days, there was always a 'take it or leave it-there are a thousand other students who will take your seat' attitude in all our student-institute interactions. Again, I hope that's changed or is at least changing here.