[Sutripta]

The lure of China, as seen by the WSJ.

Sutripta

[srini1785]

Originally Posted by nasa_hubble

When the corona virus had just started to spread, people had projected that there would be a requirement for lakhs of ventilators. India lacked the ability to manufacture ventilators in the country. Mr. Anand Mahindra had proposed that M&M will manufacture ventilators for use during the pandemic. A lot of folks were pessimistic about Mahindra manufacturing ventilators

Don't get me wrong. I am all for "made in india " products but the device looks like car dash board from the 70's. I am not going to make any judgement on the functionality but just for outward cosmetic comparison, this is what GE Medical has to offer.

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by srini1785

Don't get me wrong. I am all for "made in india " products but the device looks like car dash board from the 70's. I am not going to make any judgement on the functionality

Same here.
We have to start somewhere, but given Anand Mahindra's excessive praise for juggads on twitter, I would be a bit wary of putting my life on the workings of a life or death medical device possibly built with that philosophy.

How many members of this forum do you think have actually set foot on a manufacturing firms shopfloor?

Sutripta

[arijitkanrar]

Originally Posted by srini1785

Don't get me wrong. I am all for "made in india " products but the device looks like car dash board from the 70's. I am not going to make any judgement on the functionality but just for outward cosmetic comparison, this is what GE Medical has to offer.

I think we shouldn't be forgetting that GE Medical introduced this product (CARESCAPE R860) in 2014 after probably years of R&D and time to refine the looks and the UI.
What Mahindra has created has been done in 2 months and was built for emergency use only which is the need of the hour. Considering that it looks like a good job. It it works, can be built quickly and at a low cost, it has served its intended purpose.
If they do plan to go with ventilators as a new product line from the company, I'm sure there will be further refinement of the product.

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by Sutripta

Same here.
We have to start somewhere, but given Anand Mahindra's excessive praise for juggads on twitter, I would be a bit wary of putting my life on the workings of a life or death medical device possibly built with that philosophy.

I sometimes wonder whether his organisation's products and processes would improve if he spent less time peacocking on Twitter and more time taking and implementing actual feedback.

Originally Posted by Sutripta

How many members of this forum do you think have actually set foot on a manufacturing firms shopfloor?

Extensively, in my case, across the world. Which is why I view these proclamations as entertainment.

[srini1785]

Originally Posted by arijitkanrar

I think we shouldn't be forgetting that GE Medical introduced this product (CARESCAPE R860) in 2014 after probably years of R&D and time to refine the looks and the UI.

Yes you are right. It also underwent extensive trials and is proven to give reliable service.

Originally Posted by arijitkanrar

What Mahindra has created has been done in 2 months and was built for emergency use only which is the need of the hour.

I have seen final year projects of engineering college students which look similar. This is not what was expected of a team of engineers in R&D dept with better infra and funding.

Originally Posted by arijitkanrar

Considering that it looks like a good job. It it works, can be built quickly and at a low cost, it has served its intended purpose. If they do plan to go with ventilators as a new product line from the company, I'm sure there will be further refinement of the product.

Well , if that is your perspective then i respect it. I can only tell you that glorifying such Jugaads is not going to get us anywhere. Especially not in the field of medical instrumentation. Just for your info the below image is a respirator produced by an indian company. So Mahindra is clearly playing in the wrong field here.

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by srini1785

I have seen final year projects of engineering college students which look similar.

I disagree. I've seen some which look better.

Originally Posted by v1p3r

Which is why I view these proclamations as entertainment.

Entertainment or not depends on the severity of consequences. Death gasp, or spasm caused by a laughing fit.

Wannabe ventilator manufacturers all over the world are suddenly facing a reality check.

Sutripta

[Miyata]

Originally Posted by nasa_hubble

This has been specifically developed for COVID emergency use and has the basic features of a ventilator. The fancy features can be added on later.

Fabulous! More power to such diversification where companies can manufacture medical equipment; surgical equipment; and the likes. Great steps on the lines of self-reliance.

Hope the functionality and reliability get well tested and further popularized so they can even start exporting to other countries. The cosmetics and other functionalities can come in subsequent iterations.

I assume the IPRs on the basic equipment itself would be long expired, however, those silly cosmetics and "functionalities" might still have valid ongoing patent rights...M&M would have tread those carefully lest they are dragged into pointless litigations.

[ashokrajagopal]

Two words which are conspicuous with their limited presence in this thread -- intellectual property.

Even Mahindra here got threatened with IP, from PGIMER for the ventilator effort
https://indianexpress.com/article/ci...perty-6344776/


And Mahindra-Skanray ventilators, I think the right name should be that, because Mahindra worked with Skanray in producing these, are not going into production. That in itself is not a problem really, but overlook the involvement of an industry specialist at your peril.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...w/75750883.cms

COVID is a special case when world is (arguably) more humane and is being lenient with IP.
Case in point Medtronics online publishing of its IP.
But that is not the practice in general.

IP should not be an afterthought for self-reliance !!

[arijitkanrar]

Originally Posted by srini1785

I have seen final year projects of engineering college students which look similar. This is not what was expected of a team of engineers in R&D dept with better infra and funding.



Well , if that is your perspective then i respect it. I can only tell you that glorifying such Jugaads is not going to get us anywhere. Especially not in the field of medical instrumentation. Just for your info the below image is a respirator produced by an indian company. So Mahindra is clearly playing in the wrong field here.

Well, my perspective is purely the understanding that in the current scenario, function is more important than form.
The image in your post is of a respirator produced by SkanRay which incidentally is the same company Mahindra collaborated with to create the ventilator (going by the tweets of Anand Mahindra and Dr. Pawan Goenka). So, hopefully it will be better than a jugaad and therein lies my optimism that if it can help in these times, its worth it.

Similar low cost designs have been demonstrated by others also (for e.g. Indian Railways Southern Railways Zone).

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by Miyata

can even start exporting to other countries.

Wonder what percentage of our exports are proper manufactured/ engineering goods, ie. not sold as a commodity?

Sutripta

[Nissan1180]

Originally Posted by srini1785

Don't get me wrong. I am all for "made in india " products but the device looks like car dash board from the 70's. I am not going to make any judgement on the functionality but just for outward cosmetic comparison, this is what GE Medical has to offer.

I don't intend to make any personal statements, but I am not sure if you have ever visited the emergency bed of an hospital. Most devices there don't have a screen, any sort of user interface at all.
Also, it is disappointing to see senior members stating that Mahindra made a substandard device. A ventilator is an engineering contraption and am sure that the engineers at Mahindra did their best to test the product with limited resources. It may not be as good as a top quality international ventilator, but it wouldn't be useless as well. There are a lot of vested interests keen on destroying any indigenous effort, and their lure must be resisted.

Also, the issue for many of these ventilator efforts is procuring the right sensors. These are usually made in China.
Domestic engineers, who made the world's cheapest Mars mission possible, know how to make a ventilator. Without the components, they are helpless.

[Miyata]

Originally Posted by Sutripta

Wonder what percentage of our exports are proper manufactured/ engineering goods, ie. not sold as a commodity?

I don't know. I am sure we could find some published numbers. Most of us would assume the percentages to be low, however, as long as those percentages are increasing it's a great news for the country. Every small step counts and it's great if we can make them count!

Some snapshots from one source -

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by Nissan1180

Also, it is disappointing to see senior members stating that Mahindra made a substandard device. A ventilator is an engineering contraption and am sure that the engineers at Mahindra did their best to test the product with limited resources. It may not be as good as a top quality international ventilator, but it wouldn't be useless as well. There are a lot of vested interests keen on destroying any indigenous effort, and their lure must be resisted.
It will be good to stop reading articles about ventilators published by journalists without even a high school science experience to start with.

These shaming efforts of the Mahindra engineers are among the various factors that restrict the growth and globalization of indigenous manufacturers.
Also, the issue for many of these ventilator efforts is procuring the right sensors. These are usually made in China and they give a priority to supplying to the US and EU. Domestic engineers, who made the world's cheapest Mars mission possible, know how to make a ventilator. Without the components, they are helpless.

Speaking from experience here - I have dealt with M&M 'engineers' over the course of my career. I am also currently helping / advising on some development of indigenous ventilators, pro bono. My qualifications as a chartered engineer with experience in fluid dynamics have proven to be of some use.

What has been pictured is a shoddy attempt. Even the stickering seems to have been manually torn instead of being precision cut (the SOS/Weaning control).

This is similar to how the first few years of Scorpio / Safari production were used to iron out niggles. Well, healthcare isn't like that. If you have a 'niggle', someone dies. 'Better than nothing' does not pass FDA norms. What would you rather trust for your family, a GE device or this jugaad? There is enough feedback from intensivists (and actual ventilator manufacturers) to please stop sending sub-standard items to ERs and ICUs.

Let us not get into the Indian manufacturing story. We have world class generics makers in pharma at least. But it is also instructive to remember that GE Medical Systems started off as Wipro-GE in India, before Wipro decided that innovation and manufacturing weren't worth as much as bodyshopping.

[Nissan1180]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

What has been pictured is a shoddy attempt. Even the stickering seems to have been manually torn instead of being precision cut (the SOS/Weaning control).

This is similar to how the first few years of Scorpio / Safari production were used to iron out niggles. Well, healthcare isn't like that. If you have a 'niggle', someone dies. 'Better than nothing' does not pass FDA norms. What would you rather trust for your family, a GE device or this jugaad? There is enough feedback from intensivists (and actual ventilator manufacturers) to please stop sending sub-standard items to ERs and ICUs.

Let us not get into the Indian manufacturing story. We have world class generics makers in pharma at least. But it is also instructive to remember that GE Medical Systems started off as Wipro-GE in India, before Wipro decided that innovation and manufacturing weren't worth as much as bodyshopping.

GE Healthcare and Wipro GE merged in 2009.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.the...84454.ece/amp/


A ventilator needs to go through thousands of hours of tests, that's undeniable. Are all India products not as good functionally as the imported ones? Not sure.

Would be better to read news about ventilators published by folks who at least studied science for their graduation. Articles like this one https://www.google.com/amp/s/ahmedab...w/75795508.cms by journalists who probably don't even know what a ventilator does, and what an ambubag does, are destroying any intent for indigenization of technologies.