[Zippy_wheels]

If security is such a big risk (I am not saying it is not but it can be handled) then why did companies allow WFH during covid? Companies can never knowingly compromise on security. You trusted your employees and they stood up to the challenge when you needed them to. You should continue to have that trust. If an employee is not doing what he/she is supposed to, then call them to office. But companies should be flexible.

During covid, other business in manufacturing, retail etc. were affected and some employees just sat at home and got paid but IT employees kept toiling despite multiple challenges. It wasn't easy to procure computer accessories, desks, chairs internet etc. for a lot of people. I remember I lent out a couple of laptops to a few in the society so they could work. One laptop had an issue with power cable. We arranged for a shopkeeper to slide it out from his backdoor at 6 AM. Similarly, issues were compounded due to frequent power cuts. We spent money on inverters, UPS etc. So its time for employers to repay employees for those efforts to keep their business running.

We are still doing as much (if not more) work. Its not like we are asking for less work. We are just trying to save commute times which does not benefit the company in any case. In fact it saves the company money (transport, electricity etc.)

Having said all that, I know the companies face some challenges. New people not being able to learn, some people avoiding work, some have internet issues, no team bonding etc. Hybrid takes care of these issues partially. If a person is not working, there are always goals and targets, that could be used to measure these employees and action can be taken accordingly. These issues were present even when people went to office. Dont tell me the companies were able to get everyone to do, what was expected of them, when they were physically present in office.

All in all, I think companies should be flexible, and decide what works for them, as well as, employees and have discussions with individuals on what will work best for both. Just demanding that they come back to office because "I am the employer and I hold all the cards" wont work. It will get people to come to office in the short term, but unless they see the logic, they will either leave or do sub-par work in office.

[V.Narayan]

As someone speaking for the employer here I can only advice young people that the IT sector in India and in USA is facing lay offs and this trend is more likely to continue than slow down. You folks know this better than I do. On top of this customers are asking at every second opportunity what IT companies in India are doing about AI to cut costs {read manpower}. Whether AI can cut costs or not I don't know yet but the pressure is real. On top of that Indian IT companies are gradually migrating work to the English literate countries of Africa - the employees are hungry, they fuss a lot less, they at least as of now don't job hop relentlessly - net net they are what India's workforce was 20 to 25 years ago. Bigger changes could be around the corner next 2 years so don't make WFH a deal breaker for yourself. A nephew of mine in BLR was arguing with me about his cruel WITCH employer. My only advice to him was not to make WFH such a big issue that he doesn't realize when the ground shifts under his feet and he becomes UFH {Unemployed From Home}. I doubt he gives much value to my advice even after seeking it!

India as a nation, Indian entrepreneurs as investors and young Indians as employees should not assume that the gravy train of IT services {coding & BPO/KPO} that India has enjoyed for the last 30 years will last forever. I hope it does but a plateau seems more likely than galloping growth at least for next three years.

[Mechanto]

For people who are arguing against WF Office, can you also agree that online classes are good for school going children? If you feel online classes severely limit the amount of learning on children, the same applies to working employees as well. We work and learn as a team. At every point in one's career there is learning, either from peers or from leaders, at times from subordinates as well. Every other industry have returned to normalcy in working from office, why only the IT sector is making all the noise?

[PreludeSH]

Originally Posted by Mechanto

For people who are arguing against WF Office, can you also agree that online classes are good for school going children? If you feel online classes severely limit the amount of learning on children, the same applies to working employees as well. We work and learn as a team. At every point in one's career there is learning, either from peers or from leaders, at times from subordinates as well. Every other industry have returned to normalcy in working from office, why only the IT sector is making all the noise?

Dont think WFH makes people work less as a team. I do think one or two days of physically getting together might bring good feeling. With collaborative tools where you can just click to talk to anyone, share and discuss the feeling of team still remains. Today there is wealth of information available online and you dont need hand holding unless you are doing some specialized work.

Of course sometimes it might depend on the people, the Manager and kind of work. If Managers cannot manage productivity then its their and company's problem. To me going to office once a week is for personal aspects of team bonding, not proffessional.

[Pythonic]

Originally Posted by Mechanto

For people who are arguing against WF Office, can you also agree that online classes are good for school going children? If you feel online classes severely limit the amount of learning on children, the same applies to working employees as well. We work and learn as a team. At every point in one's career there is learning, either from peers or from leaders, at times from subordinates as well. Every other industry have returned to normalcy in working from office, why only the IT sector is making all the noise?

Nvidia is in news. It allows complete remote for its employees. So, food for thought.
Also false equivalency with the kids because, you need peer company in your development stage. Not required for fully grown adults to be locked in a building for 8 hours a day, in my opinion, 2-3 days a week should suffice.
I spent my last few years of college online and have been working remote for the last 2 years, don’t feel like I’ve lost anything at all and I’ve gotten closer with my family in my hometown and have much better quality of life and don’t give 1/3 income as rent

[sudeepg]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Product companies don't deal with customer data, so they can make policies without taking customer's infra-sec needs.

This is not true. Product companies do deal with customer data. Every time you make a sale or provide services, you are capturing & dealing with customer data. Every attribute of a customer is data and that needs to be protected at all costs. An erring employee can use that data and sell it to a competitor (which unfortunately has happened in the past with some big social media companies). The major cloud players store lots and lots of customer data and they have to protect it at all costs.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by sudeepg

This is not true. Product companies do deal with customer data. Every time you make a sale or provide services, you are capturing & dealing with customer data.

I don't think you understood what I meant. I don't mean their contact information or PO details. I meant customer's data. Service companies have extensive access to customer's data, while product companies have limited access.

[PZK]

Originally Posted by Mechanto

For people who are arguing against WF Office, can you also agree that online classes are good for school going children? If you feel online classes severely limit the amount of learning on children, the same applies to working employees as well. We work and learn as a team. At every point in one's career there is learning, either from peers or from leaders, at times from subordinates as well. Every other industry have returned to normalcy in working from office, why only the IT sector is making all the noise?

I couldn't agree more! After moving to the US, I've realized remote interactions are like watching highlights of a match– you miss the whole experience. Those spontaneous, in-person conversations are the spice of life. I have already started noticing that my connect with my 3 best friends is no longer at the same level as it was before.

Some might not think they matter, especially at work, but I disagree. My closest friendships come from those shared environments in college and work. Today we are asking for 100% remote work, because its possible. So is college and school.
If everything shifts to remote, like work, school, and even social life, it risks creating a very isolated world. The commute might be a hassle, but it's a chance to connect with people you never would have met otherwise.

Performance alone should not be a benchmark for WFH demands. Look at the big picture.

[SS80]

My office has now mandated 3 days of work from the office. Honestly, it's a pain riding 23 km to the office one way and the return is equally exhausting. Carpooling was a nightmare with colleagues who didn't respect our rides, they thought it was fine to man spread in the front seat, and talk on earphones half the distance, but basic car etiquette was lacking.

Some roles in some companies don't need so much in-person interaction and some of us are introverts. Introverts love working from home.

I think 2 days of work from the office is enough.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Mechanto

For people who are arguing against WF Office, can you also agree that online classes are good for school going children? If you feel online classes severely limit the amount of learning on children, the same applies to working employees as well. We work and learn as a team. At every point in one's career there is learning, either from peers or from leaders, at times from subordinates as well. Every other industry have returned to normalcy in working from office, why only the IT sector is making all the noise?

Originally Posted by PZK

I couldn't agree more! After moving to the US, I've realized remote interactions are like watching highlights of a match– you miss the whole experience. Those spontaneous, in-person conversations are the spice of life. I have already started noticing that my connect with my 3 best friends is no longer at the same level as it was before.
Some might not think they matter, especially at work, but I disagree.
If everything shifts to remote, like work, school, and even social life, it risks creating a very isolated world. The commute might be a hassle, but it's a chance to connect with people you never would have met otherwise.
Performance alone should not be a benchmark for WFH demands. Look at the big picture.

Thank you @Mechanto and @PZK for these new and sensible thoughts. We humans are fundamentally social animals who learn from each other in obvious ways like a conversation and less obvious ways like a warning glance. Too many young who spend their years interacting 80% of the time with bits and bytes on a computer lose some of their understanding of the value of human interaction and the enrichment in learning and growing it brings. And I dare say at risk of being bludgeoned that this gap is reflected here in several of the posts.

Other than some employees {certainly not any one on Team BHP, but those others} goofing off using WFH as a shield WFH is deeply inefficient for interactions to clarify points, ask questions, share thoughts, etc. things that get done in an office by walking across 10 metres and having a two minute conversation can take half a day to schedule a call. That is a fact which most have experienced. Employees, on this thread might feel WFH is more productive but there are two other votes around the table too before the resolution can pass - the employer and the customer.

Maybe the members of Team BHP and the ones posting here are deeply productive, never goof off while on WFH mode, but that is not what we employers get to see in the larger population. And if we are forced to choose between the needs of the bill paying customer and a recalcitrant employee thumping the table about WFH the customer will win each time.

As a company selling services in a highly competitive market most often to international corporations much larger than itself it never ever pays to assume being indispensable. Similarly, as an employee working for a large corporation it never ever pays to assume you are indispensable. Infact both Indian companies and customers are asking if it makes sense to have too many eggs in the Indian basket just like global corporations are questioning the over dependence on China where manufacturing goes. I have written on this thread of work being shifted to Africa and one of many factors is cost another is the sense of entitlement amongst some Indian employees, evident on this thread, that is gradually chipping away at the India advantage at the macro level. The tide is changing while some are arguing about chairs on the deck of the Titanic.

[Mechanto]

Originally Posted by Pythonic

Nvidia is in news. It allows complete remote for its employees. So, food for thought.
Also false equivalency with the kids because, you need peer company in your development stage. Not required for fully grown adults to be locked in a building for 8 hours a day, in my opinion, 2-3 days a week should suffice.
I spent my last few years of college online and have been working remote for the last 2 years, don’t feel like I’ve lost anything at all and I’ve gotten closer with my family in my hometown and have much better quality of life and don’t give 1/3 income as rent

If you think a fully grown adult doesn't need peer company, then there is something fundamentally incorrect. The fact that you have never been working in an office set up speaks about your thoughts. While I respect your thoughts, I would humbly disagree as I have seen both the sides with much more experience than many people here

[Pythonic]

Originally Posted by Mechanto

If you think a fully grown adult doesn't need peer company, then there is something fundamentally incorrect. The fact that you have never been working in an office set up speaks about your thoughts. While I respect your thoughts, I would humbly disagree as I have seen both the sides with much more experience than many people here

That’s something I can’t argue against, to be frank
I will also clarify that I don’t think adults don’t require peer company, just that they don’t need it 40 hours a week. My biggest point for work from home is that it doesn’t siphon away young people’s money and doesn’t force them into congested and polluted cities, where they’ll have to invest lakhs and crores, many of us can go back to college or start a family earlier.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by Pythonic

That’s something I can’t argue against, to be frank

That's not true at all man, your opinion matters. Fact-based argument, derived from experience is one thing. But if the main argument is "I'm older than all of you, I know best", well, then this would be a very boring thread and forum.

Personally, I have 20+ years of experience in the IT industry, both at fully-office work setups (I used desktops for more than half my career-so no real option!), and off-late fully-remote work, where we've not even had a physical office anywhere. I find that both work well, both can be made to work, depending on what the company wants. Different companies and teams will implement what works for them. Expecting a whole company to change their policy for a few employees is not realistic. Far better to switch jobs to a company that offers one what works for them.

But either way, it's great to read fresh, new opinions based on people's experiences. Just managing to get old is a pretty silly reason to assume one is correct about everything. In fact, as I navigate through middle-age, I see it's probably the opposite!


On the cybersecurity concern angle- I've posted earlier that there are cutting-edge tools and methods that can make remote work secure. But it's also a fact that each company can certainly choose to implement those that make sense for their setup and it's a perfectly valid business reason to balance that out and enforce in-office work for security concerns. No argument about that. A company does what makes sense for their budget, implementation/compliance effort and customer requirements. Sometimes clients are insistent about certain things, what else will a company do? Obviously listen to the client over the employees, makes perfect business sense. Especially when there are enough new employees who are willing to join and work the way the company wants.

But saying that remote work can never be 'cyber secure-enough' is just incorrect.

(One of the biggest cybersecurity companies in the world- thousands of employees the world over, billions in revenue, publicly-traded so answerable to shareholders and their board, at the forefront of investigating cyber attacks and publishing those reports- they have a remote-first work culture.)

[DudeWithaFiat]

Originally Posted by Samurai

I don't think you understood what I meant. I don't mean their contact information or PO details. I meant customer's data. Service companies have extensive access to customer's data, while product companies have limited access.

I think it depends on the product, not whether it is a product company or service company. Ex:- One of the products of one of my previous companies a call center recording software. Major companies (in India and abroad) use the product in SaaS model and on-premise. The company handles lots of sensitive data of their SaaS customers. I believe its true for almost all SaaS companies.

[Gansan]

My son joined an IT job at Hyderabad during Aug 2022 as a fresher. At that time he was required to attend office twice a week, after about six months it became thrice a week. But he was staying in a PG and didn't find it convenient for wfh, so he went to office every working day. Very recently he moved to a gated community, and now avails wfh for two days a week - because it is there. He says he is fine with attending office on all five days a week if that is implemented.