[Samurai]

Originally Posted by Theyota

I would personally take what is written about 70-hour work week from NRN and likes with a grain of salt. Primarily because I barely believe in what is interpreted by an incompetent journalist and what is written by a manipulative editorial staff of a media house to sensationalize a mundane story.

No, we have seen the video in the correct context. We don't need media to interpret it to us.

Check the video from 0:55 onwards:

https://twitter.com/shobhitic/status...99463975698598

Originally Posted by Theyota

In all likelihood what NRN and the likes are saying is, we are far away from being developed country. Developed countries in the West or the East did not become developed by sitting and whining about work life balance all along. Previous generations in those countries have sweated out to rebuild their countries after whatever disasters they have had.

In those days, people didn't have computers or internet and there was no globalization. They had to do everything themselves the hard way.

One cannot compare the situation 70 years ago, to the current era and demand that the youth should behave as if they live in a war torn country with no other career options.

[Theyota]

Originally Posted by Samurai

No, we have seen the video in the correct context. We don't need media to interpret it to us.

Check the video from 0:55 onwards:

In those days, people didn't have computers or internet and there was no globalization. They had to do everything themselves the hard way.

One cannot compare the situation 70 years ago, to the current era and demand that the youth should behave as if they live in a war torn country with no other career options.

Thank you. The link has video which is sped up and has voice over. I assume the script is genuine. I would focus on the thought behind what he is saying instead of his figurative speech. He is not blaming productivity to individuals but to a system of corruption and bureaucracy. Isn’t that the truth?

He is using 70-hour figurative speech to convey his point that we should not cherry pick the work life balance topic in some of the developed world and forget the hard work put in by their previous generations.

Considering the amount of underemployment we have visible in our Tier 2 and below cities with our young demographic, we will need a lot more hard work then those countries put in 70 hours back irrespective of computerized world or not.

[mayukh42]

Originally Posted by Theyota

Considering the amount of underemployment we have visible in our Tier 2 and below cities with our young demographic, we will need a lot more hard work

70 hr/ week, if shared between 2 employees, will have both work-life balance for an individual and increase employment as a significant bonus. As we know, there is no dearth of talent and cost arbitrage will make the extra expense towards manpower pretty insignificant. So what am I missing?

He became successful along with other IT companies only because of manpower cost advantage that India enjoys over developed countries. I am yet to learn of any software product or framework that these companies have created. He has not created a Microsoft or Apple.

He wants to build the nation by asking educated people to willingly become glorified slaves. His 40 year old elephant of a company, still asked for SEZ status in West Bengal to open an office. A policy which should really be utilized for growing companies, should not be abused by well-established companies like his, what with them being so called "nation builders".

As several people have said in this thread, we are not war-torn, and the more technology evolves, the less should we need to slog extra hours. We need to work smart rather than hard, the output matters not number of hours.

[dragonfire]

Can't find fault with what he is saying. The click bait title "NRN wants the youth to work 70 hours a week" does not do justice to what he is saying here. Heck, he is not even saying that he wants the employees of Infosys to work 70 hours a week so that he and his company can make more money. He does not even say that they should work those extra hours for free. He is just saying how countries like Japan and Germany grew and he is saying that the youth should emulate that model. I don't see why people only want to see the negative side of it.

These days the of the world crybabies can't even listen to two words of advice without getting offended.

See, everything you see around you is what some highly motivated, hardworking people envisaged and built. None of the inventions that see around you were made by people who worked by the clock. If his advice is taken in the right way by at least 0.01% of the people of this country, this country will have a bright future.

[Turbohead]

Originally Posted by dragonfire

Can't find fault with what he is saying. The click bait title "NRN wants the youth to work 70 hours a week" does not do justice to what he is saying here. Heck, he is not even saying that he wants the employees of Infosys to work 70 hours a week so that he and his company can make more money.

I'm sorry, but this is exactly what he wants - to increase working hours. He tried this antic in 2020 and he was successful in convincing the govt to increase working hours from 40 to 48 hours all in the interest of the 'economy' for '2-3 years'.
Back then he wanted 60 hours but now 70. Here's an interview from 2020 for your reference https://m.facebook.com/story.php/?st...39288396112715

One thing Indian management can never come around is the fact that quality of work always supersedes quantity of work. And it was quality that helped other nations become what it is today.

[antz.bin]

There are a grand total of 24*7=168 hours in a week

So as per Mr. Murthy the youth should
Work for 70 hours
Sleep for 8*7 = 56
Eat for 1.5*7 = 10.5 (3 meals, half hour each)
Work on hygiene for 1.5 *7 = 10.5 (Loo, bath, cleaning home and clothes)
Commute 1.5*5 = 7.5 (2 way * 45 min commute, 5 days a week)

That leaves roughly 13.5 hours (12h if you work 6 days) remaining to
1. Work on a side hustle that could grow to become a large business
2. Enjoy with family
3. Exercise
4. Support local small businesses by shopping in person instead of online
5. Watching movies / TV / Sports
6. Indulging in hobbies
7. Take parents to doctor visits (parents of youth are older folks)
8. Themselves fall sick
9. Cook healthy meals ( the above list only had time to eat, not to cook)
10. Go on a holiday and support the tourism industry
11. Find your dream house.
12. Invest in the stock market outside Mutual Funds
13. Get married and make babies.

No wonder the youth of the country is afraid to commit to anything or get married or make babies. They know in their heart that they don't have time left over for those activities.

An entire generation in China has grown up without Chacha, Mama, Mausi, Bua or cousins. 2 generations are without any siblings. I wouldn't want my children / grandchildren to live in such an India. Cousins are your first friends in life, they are the people you share your secrets with before you find your first *best friend*. There is a place for them in the society.

I fail to understand how the nation will be built if you cannot support local small businesses, or spend money on leisure. All your money will go to "Mutual Fund Sahi Hai" and none of that is coming out to prop up the economy and boost it to faster to its next trillion dollars target.

Why give the absurd example of Jack Ma's 9-9-6 and why don't we see more examples of Nordic countries with 28-30 hour work weeks? Aren't they the most prosperous and the happiest in practically all the surveys?

The problem with youth working 70 hours a week for a corporate is that they will still get paid for just 40 and then get a 5.5% increment claiming that times are hard. Mr. Murthy is practically expecting more profits in per hour billing at the cost of 30 hours of charity from the youth every week.

If youth can get paid for every hour they work, we already know that the productivity levels will go through the roof! Remember during the early days of Ola/Uber cabs when drivers would drive 18 hours a day to chase incentives and make more money than 5yr experienced engineers! This is what hourly pay does! It motivates you to work much harder than Nation building does.

Corporate employees are already working 12/40 hours for Nation building. Mr. Murthy now wants them to work 42/70 for the Nation?

[sunbaj]

This is what Mr. Murthy or for that matter anyone who supports it means:

[ranjitnair77]

I think it is important to understand to the full context of what Mr. Murthy is saying instead of snippets. Here's the link to the whole video. The segment in question starts at 31:20.

https://youtu.be/ES8ZNSTswrs?t=1880

Here's a transcript of exactly what he said.

If we can look at countries that have made significant progress in the last 25-30 years, why I'm saying 25 30 years the reason is then they would have gone through some ups and downs and they would have gone through some difficulties. If they can look at a country like China, if we can look at other countries that have made significant progress economically, and then say what are the policy decisions they took so that that they could grow very well then I believe that we would also grow.

The second issue that we have to learn, Mohan, is somehow our youth have the habit of taking not so desirable habits from the west that is not helping the country. India's work productivity is one of the lowest in the world. Unless we improve our work productivity, unless we reduce corruption in the government you know at some level, unless we reduce the delays in our bureaucracy in taking decision we will not be able to compete with those countries that have made tremendous progress.

So therefore my request is that our youngsters must say this is my country. I want to work 70 hours a week. You know this is exactly what Germans and Japanese did after the second world war. Yes the German leader sat down with the corporate leaders and they said we have to rebuild and that's your job and they made sure that every German worked extra hours for a certain number of years. So I hope our corporate leaders too will be able to address our youngsters and say for the first time India has received certain respect this is thetime for us to consolidate and accelerate the progress and for doing that we need to work very hard we need to be disciplined and improve our work productivity.

I think unless we do that what can poor government do? Every government is as good as the culture of the people and our culture has to change to that of Highly determined extremely disciplined and extremely hardworking people and that transformation has to come to youngsters because youngsters from a significant majority of our population at this point of time and they are the ones who can build our country you know with gusto

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by ranjitnair77

.

So therefore my request is that our youngsters must say this is my country. I want to work 70 hours a week. You know this is exactly what Germans and Japanese did after the second world war.]

He doesn’t know the facts. Neither the Germans or the Japanese worked 70 hours a week after the war. During the first 5-10 years after the war, they averaged 2200-2400 hours a year. Which is about 8,5 - 9 hours a day without holidays. They did have holidays of course. Many folks in the west worked six days a week till the mid 60s. But it never came to 70 hours a week as an average.

Jeroen

[DigitalOne]

Originally Posted by ranjitnair77

I think it is important to understand to the full context of what Mr. Murthy is saying instead of snippets.

You beat me to this . When I listened to the whole interview 3 days back (tip: watch it at 1.25x speed; it's much better), I found that he added a lot of context before. For example, he talks about pre-1991 vs now, Urban vs rural growth now, Bangalore vs other less developed regions in India, socialism vs private enterprise and entire gamut of economics.

One may agree or disagree with the 70-hour week concept, and yes it is not for everybody, but the scope of what he says is much beyond Infosys or IT. That we are debating so much based on our limited IT experience (most of us) shows our limitations, not his.

[ach1lles]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Ultimately the family is the building block of society. Laws, norms, practices that corrode the family ultimately corrode the society.

Could you elaborate on this a bit more?

[krankstter]

Originally Posted by ach1lles

Could you elaborate on this a bit more?

Just sharing my perception of this:

For example, both the mom and dad in a hypothetical family work 70 hours a week on average as stated by Dr. NRN. Excluding sleep, that leaves an approximate 80 hours a week (combining both parents 40 each) for any family related activities. Although this hasn't been studied or researched previously, I believe that these 80 hours a week are not sufficient for family activities. Mind you, I haven't added food + bathroom and wellness related stuff to my original calc. leaving behind the 80hrs.

Ultimately, what this does is, expose your children ("building blocks of society") to the already vast ocean of society with no moderation whatsoever. Leaving aside the exceptional cases, this releases more unmoderated idiots onto this world.

I strongly believe we have enough idiots in our country (world even). Proliferating them is highly not recommended since that ultimately leads to the society breaking down

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

He doesn’t know the facts. Neither the Germans or the Japanese worked 70 hours a week after the war. During the first 5-10 years after the war, they averaged 2200-2400 hours a year. Which is about 8,5 - 9 hours a day without holidays. They did have holidays of course. Many folks in the west worked six days a week till the mid 60s. But it never came to 70 hours a week as an average.

Jeroen

Thank you Jeroen for laying out the facts amidst all the radio static.

All,

Germany and Japan were world powers before WW-II with not only the trained human capital, the economic institutions, the Marshall Plan but also the human attitudes and habits needed to build a great economy. India, with all its faults, which are aplenty is building the ladder to economic success, as it moves along - a much harder and longer journey complicated by our diversity and vastness of both population and geography. To compare India today with these two great nations post WW-II is apples and oranges and I dare say a bit of finger wagging parent ego state.

Productivity of a society is a function of numerous factors such as - Govt rules, restrictive policies, reservations, supply chain bottlenecks, lack of training facilities, half trained manpower coming out of schools/colleges, attitudes not only of workers but the capitalists and the Govt babus and so on. How many hours one works is a tiny component of overall productivity.

In Western Europe and Japan over decades and a century and a half society as a whole has gradually evolved to smoothen out these jagged edges that reduce productivity and wastage of time in co-ordination of different parts of an economy. It is possible for me to observe the changes for the better in India i.e. improvements over the 40 + years of my working life. But to get to where say Germany or Denmark are we need another 50 to 75 years at the very least.

Productivity or corporate economic progress is not the only dimension along which our complex diverse society needs to progress on. NRN and other corporate czars often, if not always, have a limited perspective of the far vaster enterprise of moving ahead as a society. We have so many battlefronts to progress along simultaneously - economic equality, reduction of poverty, basic healthcare for the vulnerable, political inclusiveness, unemployment, primary education for all, vocational training, women empowerment, female foeticide - I could list two dozen more such areas. For the nation to move forward and for the nation as a whole to become more productive and for an environment to emerge where each individual has a better productivity all these factors have to be addressed in unison.

The 70-hour week that NRN etc talk of is but one component of corporate economic productivity which in turn is but one tiny component of national productivity.

And no IMHO based on my experience of building and managing facilities in 9 countries other than India, Indian workers are not lazier or less capable of output than their peers elsewhere. If anything, like the Chinese, they are more flexible.

China's 9-9-6 culture IMHO, as a capitalist to my button holes, is deeply flawed to build a healthy sustainable society. It may sound fashionable to Wall Street but is a corrosive approach. 9-9-6 can only work even in the medium term at the expense of family, health, nourishment for the soul, long term building of skill and competencies, bringing up the next generation well, and more. It sounds to me despite being a capitalist-employer as the modern equivalent of the textile mills and mines of England of the 19th century. As an entrepreneur you have to toil your gut off at times for weeks or months. Typically your immediate first line who are rewarded appropriately must do the same to cross a hill. But to expect the rank and file employee to be flogged to work 9-9-6 sounds deeply flawed to me. Sounds trite on social media and in press interviews but that is all.

[DigitalOne]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Germany and Japan were world powers before WW-II with not only the trained human capital, the economic institutions, the Marshall Plan but also the human attitudes and habits needed to build a great economy. India, with all its faults, which are aplenty is building the ladder to economic success, as it moves along - a much harder and longer journey complicated by our diversity and vastness of both population and geography. To compare India today with these two great nations post WW-II is apples and oranges and I dare say a bit of finger wagging parent ego state.

Productivity of a society is a function of numerous factors such as - Govt rules, restrictive policies, reservations, supply chain bottlenecks, lack of training facilities, half trained manpower coming out of schools/colleges, attitudes not only of workers but the capitalists and the Govt babus and so on. How many hours one works is a tiny component of overall productivity.

I am not sure, sir if you have seen the entire ~60 minutes interview. @ranjitnair77 has posted the YouTube link of the interview in #818 above. The part about Japan/Germany makes up ~2 minutes of the ~60 minutes.

He covers most of the points you have mentioned in your post, and in my view you and he would probably be in agreement on most of the points .

Originally Posted by DigitalOne

For example, he talks about pre-1991 vs now, Urban vs rural growth now, Bangalore vs other less developed regions in India, socialism vs private enterprise and entire gamut of economics.

[Nalin1]

Originally Posted by Burgman_tales

Customer cares about the product and service he's receiving, not about the employees coming to office or not. If not, it's the responsibility of the leaders to ensure how customers and employees both well being is taken care of. Saying yes to whatever clients say seems to be Indian IT leaders mentality everywhere

On the 2nd point, which demography do you think is better off with WFO ? Non well off female employees? Because some people can't work at home, that's why everyone has to go to office?

Exactly right!! :

I have been a part of IT for over a decade in only product companies. My current employer's customers are global telecom giants who care two hoots on whether we guys are working from the bottom of the Indian Ocean or the top of Mount Everest